Stroking Straight / Dominant Eye

SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Sometimes it might take a bunch of little things to hit me in the face before I figure out something that might be obvious to someone else. Here's one example....

For years I've always had a slight right to left dip in my stroke. The movement is very slight; however, it's enough to make me miss on longer pressure-shots. No matter how many drills / shots I'd shoot, I just couldn't seem to straighten out that tiny movement.

A few years back, I purchased Joe Tucker's 3rd Eye device (that little white plastic fork). I recall when I first used this thing, true center ball looked WEIRD to me (it wasn't what I was seeing when I was down on the shot). In fact, that device forced me to see center ball with my left eye for some WEIRD reason. I found that when I looked at the CB with the center of my vision (both eyes), true center ball was about 1/8 tip to the left of center. So, I made that correction and my game improved... but I still had that damned left-dip in my stroke.

So, within the last year, Perfect Aim came out which had me thinking about eye positions more than I have in the past. While working my way through Gene's info, I found that I'm right-eye dominant. OK--- let's do the test.....I'm looking at the door knob from 30 feet back through a hole formed with both of my hands. I'm making the hole smaller so I can barely see the door knob. OK, let's close the left eye (knob is still there)....close the right eye... the knob disappears. Yup, right-eye dominant.

I was lucky to meet-up with Gene a few months back in Jimmy's pool hall (nice room, btw). Gene takes one look at me and says, "Dave, you're left-eye dominant." I'm like, "No way... I'm right eye dominant." Gene says, "HA... just close your left eye then and tell me how the shot looks." Well, I did and the entire shot disappeared. How can that be???!? Gene informed me that my head was slightly shifted to where my left eye was more over the center than the right. So, although I'm right-eye dominant... I'm LEFT eye dominant while playing pool (forced to be based on technique).

Let's get to the stroking straight part. When I've played pool, I've always looked at the CB from my vision center based on input from both eyes (which is why I have an "illusion" to where the center of the CB is...my right eye is ramming info to the brain trying to do more than the left). Because of this illusion, I've always set my body up to this incorrect center as well (which is why I required the 1/8 tip adjustment to get to true center). The stroke dip was my brain making an adjustment to overcome the illusion.

I've found that while setting up to the shot, if I only accept the input from my left eye (with both eyes open, of course, just being focused with the left) and come into the CB with the input from the left eye and lock in center ball with the left eye... my stroke is straight.

I'm really sorry for the long post, but I think this is important. For as long as I've been practicing to get better--- stroking straight was only working on one's mechanics and I don't think that's 100% the case (a lot of it is mechanics, but your vision is a good chunk as well). Understanding how you SEE with your eyes (dominant eyes and whatnot) is important; however, how that applies to your technique is more important yet.

I've found myself stroking a LOT straighter now that my brain isn't making an adjustment to overcome the illusion formed with my technique. Sure, this affects aiming as well (hence Perfect Aim) but it can REALLY affect the physical aspects of pool too. I'm just sick it took me years to fully grasp what was going on with my game.

I've been really excited with my results within the last few months; I thought I'd share it with the group since I'm SURE there are other cross-dominant players out there who are probably wondering why they're not getting any better.

Thanks, Joe/Gene.

Dave
 
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Great story.

Just a few questions.

How did you determine 1/8th of an inch adjustment? or is that an approximation?

With your brain making the adjustments for your head being 'cocked' and your right eye dominance being over ridden by your left eye placement, was it still your brain making you do the right to left dip while you were hitting the ball or was that part of the follow through?

How does one measure, accurately, improvement from the changes you learned? did you quantify your shots? misses vrs made?

Or do these learned adjustments, mean you're feeling better about how well you pocket balls?

I've seen some players do some very strange things to correct odd mechanics and gain the confidence needed to trust their aim and make shots.

I've never seen someone that has a slight right to left dip in their stroke. This is a new one on me.
 
I had a right to left dip in my stroke for the first year that I played. It was technically a left to right to left as I had an ark on my stroke that caused me to end my follow through left of center.

I could still pocket balls with it, but I had made unconscious adjustments and was hitting to the right of center on the cueball. This essentially "canceled" the English I was putting on the ball and made it to where I could pocket straight in balls. It seems very confusing, but I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Even if I knew it was possible, I didn't know I was doing it.

It took a visit to a qualified instructor, Stan Shuffet, to point it out. After that it took a great deal of straight in shots and watching my ending position to fix it. I know from personal experience sometimes your brain can make weird adjustments. Sometimes you can fix them easily, sometimes it is a battle of epic proportions.
 
I have a right to left movement at the end of my stroke where my hand ends up near my chest.

If I stroke hard, my grip tightens up and moves right to left at the wrist.

If I "throw" the cue at the CB, with a loose hold, the cue and CB goes straight.
 
You too?

SpiderWebComm said:
Sometimes it might take a bunch of little things to hit me in the face before I figure out something that might be obvious to someone else. Here's one example....

For years I've always had a slight right to left dip in my stroke. The movement is very slight; however, it's enough to make me miss on longer pressure-shots. No matter how many drills / shots I'd shoot, I just couldn't seem to straighten out that tiny movement.

A few years back, I purchased Joe Tucker's 3rd Eye device (that little white plastic fork). I recall when I first used this thing, true center ball looked WEIRD to me (it wasn't what I was seeing when I was down on the shot). In fact, that device forced me to see center ball with my left eye for some WEIRD reason. I found that when I looked at the CB with the center of my vision (both eyes), true center ball was about 1/8 tip to the left of center. So, I made that correction and my game improved... but I still had that damned left-dip in my stroke.

So, within the last year, Perfect Aim came out which had me thinking about eye positions more than I have in the past. While working my way through Gene's info, I found that I'm right-eye dominant. OK--- let's do the test.....I'm looking at the door knob from 30 feet back through a hole formed with both of my hands. I'm making the hole smaller so I can barely see the door knob. OK, let's close the left eye (knob is still there)....close the right eye... the knob disappears. Yup, right-eye dominant.

I was lucky to meet-up with Gene a few months back in Jimmy's pool hall (nice room, btw). Gene takes one look at me and says, "Dave, you're left-eye dominant." I'm like, "No way... I'm right eye dominant." Gene says, "HA... just close your left eye then and tell me how the shot looks." Well, I did and the entire shot disappeared. How can that be???!? Gene informed me that my head was slightly shifted to where my left eye was more over the center than the right. So, although I'm right-eye dominant... I'm LEFT eye dominant while playing pool (forced to be based on technique).

Let's get to the stroking straight part. When I've played pool, I've always looked at the CB from my vision center based on input from both eyes (which is why I have an "illusion" to where the center of the CB is...my right eye is ramming info to the brain trying to do more than the left). Because of this illusion, I've always set my body up to this incorrect center as well (which is why I required the 1/8 tip adjustment to get to true center). The stroke dip was my brain making an adjustment to overcome the illusion.

I've found that while setting up to the shot, if I only accept the input from my left eye (with both eyes open, of course, just being focused with the left) and come into the CB with the input from the left eye and lock in center ball with the left eye... my stroke is straight.

I'm really sorry for the long post, but I think this is important. For as long as I've been practicing to get better--- stroking straight was only working on one's mechanics and I don't think that's 100% the case (a lot of it is mechanics, but your vision is a good chunk as well). Understanding how you SEE with your eyes (dominant eyes and whatnot) is important; however, how that applies to your technique is more important yet.

I've found myself stroking a LOT straighter now that my brain isn't making an adjustment to overcome the illusion formed with my technique. Sure, this affects aiming as well (hence Perfect Aim) but it can REALLY affect the physical aspects of pool too. I'm just sick it took me years to fully grasp what was going on with my game.

I've been really excited with my results within the last few months; I thought I'd share it with the group since I'm SURE there are other cross-dominant players out there who are probably wondering why they're not getting any better.

Thanks, Joe/Gene.

Dave
Click to expand...

I have been battling with this for 30 years. I am also right eyed dominant, but my right eye is my weaker eye, so when I play I am left eyed dominant. However, I have always known this but refused to accept it, so I make extreme adjustments forcing my rt eye to be the workhorse in pool. I used to be able to do this but my eyes have grown weaker and by nighttime my rt eye doesnt want to work at all. Maybe I should just surrender to the left eye dominance like you did? You have explained some of the difficulties I may have been having.

the Beard
 
Man this whole eye dominance thing could easily make you pick out the wrong guy in a police line up.

But seriously, I have been monkeying with this and even though I am left eyed dominant my brain or my head position seems to be compensating for this somehow. I usually tend to strike the CB a little to the right which is the opposite of what you would expect.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Great story.

Just a few questions.

How did you determine 1/8th of an inch adjustment? or is that an approximation?

With your brain making the adjustments for your head being 'cocked' and your right eye dominance being over ridden by your left eye placement, was it still your brain making you do the right to left dip while you were hitting the ball or was that part of the follow through?

How does one measure, accurately, improvement from the changes you learned? did you quantify your shots? misses vrs made?

Or do these learned adjustments, mean you're feeling better about how well you pocket balls?

I've seen some players do some very strange things to correct odd mechanics and gain the confidence needed to trust their aim and make shots.

I've never seen someone that has a slight right to left dip in their stroke. This is a new one on me.
Click to expand...

I think most right handers have a right-left movement in their stroke, except it may not be pronounced enough to miss a ball properly aimed. The 1/8" adjustment was figured out by shooting a long straight-in using a striped ball as a CB and observing the CB rotation after hitting the OB. I just kept moving my tip until there was zero movement of the CB after impact.

I think the right/left cue movement was def my brain saying, "You're not making the shot with a straight stroke so here's a dip to compensate." Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a BIG movement. Unless you were staring down the butt end of my cue, you may not even SEE it (but I can feel it).

I always made balls well, so it's not that I'm making a whole lot that I didn't before. However, I'm making them while addressing "perceived" CB center and with no lateral cue movement. You asked a good question - it's very hard to quantify improvement. I usually play alone and play 14.1 by setting up a break shot and seeing what I can do. I'm a lot more confident with breakshots because I'm shooting at what I'm seeing and I see my cue move straight. I think that translates into confidence. The net affect is my average run is definitely going up.

Dave
 
freddy the beard said:
I have been battling with this for 30 years. I am also right eyed dominant, but my right eye is my weaker eye, so when I play I am left eyed dominant. However, I have always known this but refused to accept it, so I make extreme adjustments forcing my rt eye to be the workhorse in pool. I used to be able to do this but my eyes have grown weaker and by nighttime my rt eye doesnt want to work at all. Maybe I should just surrender to the left eye dominance like you did? You have explained some of the difficulties I may have been having.

the Beard
Click to expand...

Beard -

I'd bet you prob shift your face a HAIR to the right when you're in your stance. The physical fix is to rotate your face to the left in order to rotate your right eye back in a dominant position. The problem that I find with the physical fix is that it's so damn uncomfortable for me. Even if I shoot a few racks in a right-eye-dominant-position, I find that over time my face slowly but surely snugs back to the right where it's comfy (and probably belongs, for me).

"Learning" how to accept more info from the left eye has taken me some time, but it's helping every aspect of my game.

In a way, I'm glad to hear you've been fighting this for decades --- it made me feel as though I'm not alone. Your post lifted me up a bit -- after all, I've learned a lot from your book/video.

Thanks,
Dave
 
You could be right eye dominant?

Philthepockets said:
Man this whole eye dominance thing could easily make you pick out the wrong guy in a police line up.

But seriously, I have been monkeying with this and even though I am left eyed dominant my brain or my head position seems to be compensating for this somehow. I usually tend to strike the CB a little to the right which is the opposite of what you would expect.
Click to expand...

From my teachings I have found that about 20% of the players out there pass every test that says they are right or left eye dominant only to find out when I do my foolproof test with my big balls that they are actually the other eye diminant.

Everyone has a dominant eye and some are very slight, some are very strong. Either way it doesn't matter if you don't know how to correct your aim. Not knowing how this works is like having a gun with a scope and never using the scope. Other guys can do the things that you can't because they are naturally doing it better or they learned Perfect aim and know exactly how this all works.

So far in all my teachings I have never ran into a player that understood what i am teaching or was doing it before I taught him. To me this is almost baffling or mind boggling. How can this be but it is? EVERYONE.

If you are certain you are left though you probably are. But I'll do this. just give me a call and be by a pool table. Have 2 balls about the size of softballs or they can be softballs. I'll help you out and you will know for sure.

Have a great day geno 715-563-8712
 
Interesting thread, Dave. I'm not sure I understand the right-to-left dip correctly. Was it the cue tip or your back (right) hand that was moving from right to left? Was your backstroke straight and the right-to-left movement occurred only on the forward stroke, or was the backstroke off line? And did you have this same dip when you threw the cue (stroke slip) as when you did not?
 
Straight in shot on the nine last weekend, cue ball and object ball a few diamonds apart, an inch off the long rail.

The nine hit the long rail about halfway to the pocket. My friend watching from behind the pocket told me the way I was aiming I had no hope of making the shot.

Thinking about getting a laser thingy.

http://www.laserstroke.com/index.html or the one by Joe Tucker.
 
I'm extremely happy with the one from Joe Tucker. This has been a problem of mine for a long time, and while I sometimes go back to bad, old habbits the laser trainer is what gets me back the fastest.
 
JohnnyP said:
Straight in shot on the nine last weekend, cue ball and object ball a few diamonds apart, an inch off the long rail.

The nine hit the long rail about halfway to the pocket. My friend watching from behind the pocket told me the way I was aiming I had no hope of making the shot.

Thinking about getting a laser thingy.

http://www.laserstroke.com/index.html or the one by Joe Tucker.
Click to expand...

The laser might help, but if your natural forearm angle is whacked, you will likely miss b/c on the last stroke, your grip hand might go up in line with the angle of the forearm.
My forearm angle is whacked in the relax mode. I really have to concentrate in locking the elbow in line.
 
I too am right eye dominant but have found that I shoot left eye dominant. Solved a lot of problems knowing this.
 
Tony Robles noticed that I put a little right english on the cueball going up and down the table. I am very right eyed dominant and I think I hold the cue in the middle of my eyes.

Tony said that a lot of Puerto Ricans had this problem, at least the ones he knew, and that he didn't know why.

So, Tony said that what I had to do was practice going up and down the table and at first, make a conscious adjustment to move the cue slightly to the left. So when I notice myself during this in practice, I stop and do the up and down the table thing. This indeed straightens out my stroke.

A drill I use to tell if you are lined up properly is to set an object ball in the exact middle of the table and the cueball in the jaws of a corner pocket. A straight shooter can shoot the object ball into the opposite corner and follow it in with the cueball. If I do this drill for 15 minutes then I get better at it.

Lining your eyes up properly is one of the toughest things to do IMHO.
 
AtLarge said:
Interesting thread, Dave. I'm not sure I understand the right-to-left dip correctly. Was it the cue tip or your back (right) hand that was moving from right to left? Was your backstroke straight and the right-to-left movement occurred only on the forward stroke, or was the backstroke off line? And did you have this same dip when you threw the cue (stroke slip) as when you did not?
Click to expand...

One eye is giving me the accurate info (non-dom eye) and the dominant eye is giving me a parallax view. So, I've found that my lateral stroke movement on the final stroke wasn't mechanical per se because if I would have stroked straight based on the parallax view I would have missed the ball. I think it was a sub-conscious adjustment because my brain wouldn't let me pull the trigger straight (so I could make the ball).

I throw the cue often, actually. What I found was that even if I stroked straight with the cue (by throwing it), I still had a problem finding true center ball on the CB. When only accepting information from my left eye, my cue aligns to the CB differently and now I'm stroking along my vision instead of across it. I think my cue WANTED to stroke down my vision line, but couldn't. It's prob like throwing a dart at a number you're seeing in your peripheral vision - your hand wants to throw down your sight line.

I hope that makes sense. What good is stroking straight if you stroke straight down the wrong line? I found by taking my left eye info, I can better align my body (to true CB center) and for me, pivot to true CB center. From this position, voila - my cue's tendency is to go straight instead of to the side a little bit.

I think there's a lot that has to do with your brain wanting to stroke to the line, but only if it allows you to make the shot. I think the move is to either force your dom eye into a dom position or do the opposite (which for me was the most comfy) which is force the non-dom eye slighly into a complete dominant position with your dom eye out of the picture completely. Anything in between is no-man's land.

Dave
 
Eye dominance doesn't matter

In teaching for the past 30 years, it has become more evident that the cue tip moving off line is far more likely to be involved with grip pressure, than where your eyes are positioned over the cue. Your cue should be positioned where you perceive a straight line, whether it is under your 'dominant eye' or not. With a pendulum swing (with no elbow drop), your elbow is a hinge that moves in a dead straight line. The only problems that can create a nonlinear delivery of the cuetip are grip pressure (too much), or over flexing the bicep.
Keep it simple folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
In teaching for the past 30 years, it has become more evident that the cue tip moving off line is far more likely to be involved with grip pressure, than where your eyes are positioned over the cue. Your cue should be positioned where you perceive a straight line, whether it is under your 'dominant eye' or not. With a pendulum swing (with no elbow drop), your elbow is a hinge that moves in a dead straight line. The only problems that can create a nonlinear delivery of the cuetip are grip pressure (too much), or over flexing the bicep.
Keep it simple folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Don't you believe that the bridge also has something to do with a straight delivery?
 
Scott Lee said:
In teaching for the past 30 years, it has become more evident that the cue tip moving off line is far more likely to be involved with grip pressure, than where your eyes are positioned over the cue. Your cue should be positioned where you perceive a straight line, whether it is under your 'dominant eye' or not. With a pendulum swing (with no elbow drop), your elbow is a hinge that moves in a dead straight line. The only problems that can create a nonlinear delivery of the cuetip are grip pressure (too much), or over flexing the bicep.
Keep it simple folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I agree - off-line movement is mechanical and unrelated to the eyes. I think a lot of right-handed players have a tendency to move the shaft to the left (on the forward swing) that must be guarded against, vice versa for lefties, and focusing on pulling back in a straight line is the cure.
 
Nice thread Dave and thanks for sharing your success. I think most players have difficulty in correctly aligning the eyes and cue on the correct line and anything that helps solve the alignment issue is a plus. I went about trying to find where my eyes should be in a different manner. I drew a line on the table and placed a small mirror at one end of the line and at the other end i looked into the mirroe and ajusted it so the line was straight into the mirror. I then took the cue and stroked it down the line. When I moved my eyes to where the cue was moving straight I looked into the mirror. The cue ended up directly under my chin when stroking straight down the line and I am left eye dominant.
 
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