Old 9-ball players vs the New

Johnnyt said:
I never said they didn't have game. I said if they broke in 9-ball like they did back then they wouldn't beat today's top players. Welcome to the board. Looking forward to more posts from you about your running around days. Johnnyt
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Thanks Johnny, I appreciate the welcome.
 
JoeyA said:
Good Thread.

As with most sports, it evolves over time and the athletes perform better as more knowledge is acquired and more attention is paid to development/training, especially with the younger players.

It isn't just breaking that separates the players of yesteryear from today's players.

It is my belief that given the same environment yesteryear's players would play just as well as today's players. Kicking, breaking, stroke, patterns and virtually every aspect of the game has undergone fine-tuning over the past 50 years and as more and more information is available to the younger players at an earlier age, we will see better performance from them. The only exception to this is that when the equipment changes (tighter pockets, faster cloth, different height rails etc) it will be more difficult to determine the increased performance. I guess it kind of depends on how you rate performance. Some of those 5" pockets of yesteryear would shock some of the players of today. The older, wooly mammoth cloth in high humidity conditions would require today's players to make huge adjustments to their stroke and how they play patterns.

It is difficult for some people to accept the fact that younger people who are exposed to better knowledge at an earler age are far more likely to "get it" and perform better than some of their older counterparts.

Talent is talent and it will be there no matter what the environment but the environment in which the game is played makes THE DIFFERENCE and if you compare yesteryear's players with today's players, today's players have "different" knowledge about pool's current environment.

The thing that sticks out in our minds (for those of us who remember) about players of the past is HOW THEY DOMINATED their peers for decades at a time.

That type of long term domination no longer exists in today's pool world. There are far more people with a great deal of knowledge than there were years ago and that is why today's players are UNABLE to dominate like the players of yesteryear.
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Joey you once again have come up with the right stuff, this imo is the ultimate answer.:thumbup:

Most descriptive post in this thread.:yeah:
 
alstl said:
I disagree with safety play and kicking going to new generation. The reason is jump cues. That's why it drives Earl crazy. If you took a vote to ban jump cues you would get more votes in favor from the older generation.

I also give position play to the older generation because they played more 14.1; a lot of the younger guys play area position because they can get away with that in 9 ball.
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Not just the jump cues. When I started playing, it was push out every shot if you wanted. If they were playing ball in hand and no push out, they would have been just as good as anyone now or when ever. The game, equipment, cloth and even the air conditioning is different now. These threads will never prove anything verifiable.
 
This thread just goes 'round and 'round and 'round and 'round. Same ol', same 'ol.
 
kamtile said:
First post here fellas, my name is Keith and I grew up in anaheim with the McCreadys, Dicky Renk, Tony Banks and that crew in the 70s. I have not been around the game except watching on TV for many years but if the op is saying the oldtimers didnt have game, I would have to object. I have seen shots, racks and sessions that lasted days with flawless stratagy and unbeleivable execution that may still be equaled today but I doubt the best of todays best are any better than the best of yesterdays best. I would assume the talent pool is more vast today due to bigger money being available and payouts going deeper in the tournament fields and I doubt there is as much extra curricular chemical experimentation going on as the old days, but some truly incredible pool was played in the 70s and 80s. I didnt intend to post anything but I saw Jays name and felt compelled. I remember Jay from the stagger inn and Bobs in anaheim then Tony Margolins place on Lincoln. I ran with Buddy Dennis back then, lots of fun in those days if you lived through it. Anyhow, hi Jay.
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Welcome to the forum. I enjoyed reading your posts. Please post some more! :)
 
kamtile said:
Thanks Johnny, I appreciate the welcome.
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Kamtile,
Welcome from Colorado, you might of known me as Long Beach Bill back in the 70's, I'm a little taller that Jay H. :), and I for sure have bigger feet than he. Is Jerry Brunstedder still around? (probably misspelled his name)
Again welcome aboard.

BiL
 
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wincardona said:
Joey you once again have come up with the right stuff, this imo is the ultimate answer.:thumbup:

Most descriptive post in this thread.:yeah:
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Billy,
No need to butter me up Billy, I will still make sure that you receive your annual Christmas gifts on time, as usual. :wink:

Best Regards,
 
Congrats JoeyA!

JoeyA said:
Billy,
No need to butter me up Billy, I will still make sure that you receive your annual Christmas gifts on time, as usual. :wink:

Best Regards,
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When I read what Bill wrote about you, I was proud that you're my pal! :D
When a man of the ilk of a Billy Incardona compliments a post, you KNOW you're a somebody in pooldom!

You'll be getting all kinds of calls, PM notes, e-mails, etc now asking for advice and such. Much like them lottery winners who have "family" coming out of the woodwork when they cash the ticket! :D

By the way Joey, what do you think of Earl in his prime vs Sigel in his, race to 100 9 ball, Texas Express rules, Simonis 860???

:D
 
jay helfert said:
I will add one thing to this discussion. The absolute best money player I ever saw at 9-Ball or Ten Ball was Jose Parica. Buddy is second. So these are two oldsters, both over 60. Jose was like the early version of Alex and Buddy was Shane before there was a Shane. One difference though, no one ever beat Buddy, and Shane loses once in a while. Buddy and Parica never played for whatever reason.

But overall I still think Parica was the best I ever saw. He played smart, had more heart than ten bulls and absolutely no dog in him. Alex can get a little careless once in a while. Parica didn't. He never gave anyone any air. Ask around to all the great players still alive from 20-25 years ago. See what they have to say. Parica bar-b-que'd them all! And gave up weight to boot. He beat Earl in his prime. He was the most feared money player for 20 years! And for good reason.

I truly believe the Parica of 20 years ago would have beaten Yang as well. He just had more game than anyone else. Jose was the best money player (and maybe the best pool player) I ever saw play the game. There are many great pool players today and a few good money players, but none quite like Parica. All these other guys (except for Yang) miss balls in big money matches. Parica might not miss a ball for twenty or thirty games at a time! Try fading that. No one could either.
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Mark Ransom, a local pro here in MA, once said to me that if his life were on the line and he could pick one person to make a shot to save his life, he would pick Jose Parica.
 
real bartram said:
very good post

the break safes and kicks today are way more powerfull.

now take those guys from the past put them today diff story cause they would know how to kick break and play safe like todays players.
so yes i think todays players would win if the old guys played like they did.
but im sure they would pick up on todays game.
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excellent , and you guys are only talking about going back 25 years . Way back in 1984 , Walter Tevis wrote a BOOK (not the movie . . ) called the Color of Money which largely dealt with a top straight pool player from the sixties learning to adjust to eighties style 9ball play. Even 'back then' he wrote about learning to play position differently , and changing to a more powerful break. Of course the old players would learn to adapt to todays style.

Someone else mentioned that a huge difference is equipment. I tried a little "social experiment" with that last year . Took the Diamond bar box out of our bar and replaced it with a 9' Gandy (4 5/8" pockets) covered with the coarsest army-blanket feeling wool you could imagine. Topped it with an antique set of Brunswick clay balls (including clunky monster cue ball) on league 9ball nights ( I won't mention which league by name , but their initials are a p a hehehe) and you wouldn't believe the response I got. Their 'top' players , s/l 8 +9 , suddenly couldn't play anymore . The league almost instantly sent me a furious letter ordering me to discontinue this practice immediately.

reference those pinyos that can play in any conditions : I tried another "social experiment" with the league players a few years back where I made them play out on our deck (sunny Florida) . Had a nice awning so that they were never in direct sunlight , but that one caused an uproar also . Seems the didn't like the way the special outdoor felt played , either. nuttin but respek for the pinyos . . .
 
jay helfert said:
I will add one thing to this discussion. The absolute best money player I ever saw at 9-Ball or Ten Ball was Jose Parica. Buddy is second. So these are two oldsters, both over 60. Jose was like the early version of Alex and Buddy was Shane before there was a Shane. One difference though, no one ever beat Buddy, and Shane loses once in a while. Buddy and Parica never played for whatever reason.

But overall I still think Parica was the best I ever saw. He played smart, had more heart than ten bulls and absolutely no dog in him. Alex can get a little careless once in a while. Parica didn't. He never gave anyone any air. Ask around to all the great players still alive from 20-25 years ago. See what they have to say. Parica bar-b-que'd them all! And gave up weight to boot. He beat Earl in his prime. He was the most feared money player for 20 years! And for good reason.

I truly believe the Parica of 20 years ago would have beaten Yang as well. He just had more game than anyone else. Jose was the best money player (and maybe the best pool player) I ever saw play the game. There are many great pool players today and a few good money players, but none quite like Parica. All these other guys (except for Yang) miss balls in big money matches. Parica might not miss a ball for twenty or thirty games at a time! Try fading that. No one could either.
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Jay is right on target here. When Jose first came over, Gary and I met him in Akron. He came over to where Gary was warming up and watched Gary rifle in bank shot after bank shot. He commented to me that he was amazed at

how well Gary banked. We took Jose out to eat with us after Gary's match and have been friends ever since. I was even looking into sponsoring him to move to the US at one point. At that same tournament, Gary and I were

watching Jose warm up for his match. He was racking and playing Rotation (15 ball Ghost sort of). He broke and ran 3 1/2 racks of 15 ball rotation and then I think he had to quit to give the table up for a match. Gary was even

more amazed than I was. Efren was at this tournament also and after watching both of these guys shoot, It was at that point that I made the resolution to NEVER bet against a Filipino, period! I may not always bet on them, but

certainly not against them! I've lived by that resolution for about 25 years and there's no doubt in my mind that it's saved me a lot of money over the years! I've seen Jose come from behind in several situations where everyone

though he was out of the match, but me!

I once made a crazy sweat bet with "Cornbread" when Jose was playing Terry Bell in a tournament. Jose had been up all night gambling and had an early morning match with Terry. When

I sat down next to "Red" he said "the Filipino has been up all night and Terry has him on the ropes." The score was 8-3 favoring Terry Bell at that time. I told "Cornbread" you can't count Jose out til it's over! The match

progressed to where it was 9-6 Terry, racing to 11. Cornbread said "Stick a fork in him, he's done"! I said "not yet"! Red looked at me like I was goofy, so I said I'll take Jose for $50. It was a crazy bet, but Jose had started

showing some life and I was pumped at the time and wasn't worried about the $50. Of course Red jumped all over the bet and offered to bet more if I wanted, but I said I don't mind taking a $50 shot at it, but I'm not that crazy!

Well the final score was 11-9 Jose, who went on to win the tournament BTW! Cornbread was livid! He said, "How the hell can you make a bet like that?" My reply was " I've got a lot of faith in that little Filipino, and besides, He

did win , didn't he?" LOL For years Cornbread and I laughed about my crazy bet with him! I've seen Jose do similar things many times. Yes, I agree with Jay about Jose being the best 9-ball money player I've ever seen! And he

still plays pretty damned sporty for a guy over 60!
 
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I agree JAM...How about this? Let's go back in time, with today's champs, and put them in the box with the heros of yesteryear, playing on the equipment they played on back then. Old school would literally RUN AWAY with the dough, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JAM said:
Rep to you. You are EXACTLY right.

This topic is brought up ad nauseum on this forum over and over and over and over and over again. I think it gives some people pleasure, and I am not sure why. It's the same people, too!
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Koop said:
Mark Ransom, a local pro here in MA, once said to me that if his life were on the line and he could pick one person to make a shot to save his life, he would pick Jose Parica.
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In a tournament, Sigel NEVER missed if the match was on the line. For money Buddy and Jose were the best under pressure. But if someone had to shoot one shot for their life, I like Cornbread to make that shot. And he would fire it in at 100 mph too!

There is a well known story about Cornbread playing in Texas and robbing everyone and some outlaw pulled a gun and said that if Red made the next nine ball, he was going to shoot him. Red took a look at the guy and the gun and got down and fired the ball in. Later he told Puckett he didn't think the guy would really shoot him. Talk about gambling for your life!
 
I know one 66 year old man now that plays with the best and is making himself better than he was back then just because he said that he can...What a mentality. All I can say is watch out. I saw Joey Barnes I believe from texas play the other night in action and what a player....
 
jay helfert said:
In a tournament, Sigel NEVER missed if the match was on the line. For money Buddy and Jose were the best under pressure. But if someone had to shoot one shot for their life, I like Cornbread to make that shot. And he would fire it in at 100 mph too!

There is a well known story about Cornbread playing in Texas and robbing everyone and some outlaw pulled a gun and said that if Red made the next nine ball, he was going to shoot him. Red took a look at the guy and the gun and got down and fired the ball in. Later he told Puckett he didn't think the guy would really shoot him. Talk about gambling for your life!
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You never fail me with a great story, thanks for that.
 
Just bumping this thread for those who were touting the youngsters. I think Van Boening and his backers found out the previous generation can play a little thanks to Earl.
 
alstl said:
Just bumping this thread for those who were touting the youngsters. I think Van Boening and his backers found out the previous generation can play a little thanks to Earl.
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We grew up on roll out'....board play is dam important.
 
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