From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:

[JoeyA]

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA

 

[edd]

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA

Thanks for sharing, Joey. Happy Holidays to you, my friend.

 

[bboxgrinder]

The proper "book" way that is taught today may be scientifically correct but people are not robots. I think each individual will be different and different styles will work for different individuals. I have seen players study every piece of instructional material they could get a hold of along with lessons and after years still couldn't be a natural good player. Some people have the coordination, competition heart, and natural ability to become better. Others just simply will not. Interesting post either way. Thanks JoeyA and Merry Xmas to you.

 

[ridinda9]

So the master himself was teaching elbow drop 45 years ago . . .

just think how many more views ( and flames) this thread might have if you'd just titled it "in praise of Elbow Drop " !:grin-devilish:

absolutely post more;we're payin' attention ( but not the water or electricity ~ this month . . .)

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

Willie did not take much time with this book, it would appear. He also states in there that the cue should be held 4" behind the balance point. Works for a little guy like him, but most players need to hold the cue considerably further back.

 

[JoeyA]

Willie did not take much time with this book, it would appear. He also states in there that the cue should be held 4" behind the balance point. Works for a little guy like him, but most players need to hold the cue considerably further back.

Yes Jerry, I think a number of things were from his perspective and might not be the same for others. (Feet 8" apart???? Pleeeeeeze!

He sure favored an upright position rather than being low on the cue.

I also think I saw a photograph that indicated that while he was right handed, he may have been left eye dominant, FWIW.

 

[Neil]

....................

 

[greyghost]

well think about it guys Mosconi and Greenleaf not unlike many players from way back had a more upright stance.......

because of that a true pendulum stroke is more difficult to do than a piston/vector style stroke.........

the reason is when your bent more over then hand can break past the 90º mark b/f hitting the dead end........stand more upright and it will be hitting your more on your torso stopping your hand at or not much past that 90º mark effectively making the stroke feel weird I assume lol.

we talked about this long ago on the more elbow dropping nonsense thread......remember we said if you stood upright and did a pendulumn stroke to the finish spot on the chest.....the tip would blow out your light bulbs lol

Stance can influence stroke as one can be more optimal than another depending on your bodys up/down position.

-Grey Ghost-

 

[3andstop]

When I think back to this book and the one from Irving Crane, I often wonder just how much of it they actually wrote and how much of it was done by others and simply endorsed by the player.

 

[Johnnyt]

The proper "book" way that is taught today may be scientifically correct but people are not robots. I think each individual will be different and different styles will work for different individuals. I have seen players study every piece of instructional material they could get a hold of along with lessons and after years still couldn't be a natural good player. Some people have the coordination, competition heart, and natural ability to become better. Others just simply will not. Interesting post either way. Thanks JoeyA and Merry Xmas to you.

I agree. Everyone is built different and have different balance points. One size doesn't fit all. Willie was wrong and a poor teacher. I read the book years ago. Johnnyt

 

[measureman]

Back when Willie and Irving were playing the primary game was straight pool. Most shots were 2 feet or less. An upright stance made the angle easier to see. I grew up in this era. I was taught by the old timers to stand more upright on short shots and use a shorter stroke. On longer shots I was taught to get down lower and use a longer stroke. And thats the way I still do it.
Also for those of you that have trouble on long draw shots where the cue ball is 6 or 7 feet from the object ball and you need to draw the ball back 6 or 7 feet I was taught to shorten the stroke and grip the cue a few inches further back then normal and of course follow thru smoothly.Don't jab at it with a lot of force,won't work.

 

[Williebetmore]

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA

JA,
As many know here, I consider Willie M. the greatest of all time; but not necessarily the greatest there will ever be, and not necessarily the greatest instructor of all time. He is teaching things the way he did it (adequate to get him where he was). His instructional book was a HUGE disappointment to those of us thinking it could get us to a similarly proficient level - a very inadequate reference for anyone other than a novice student.

I cannot wait for Mark Wilson to publish his work (at least 15 years now in the making - I'm suspicious that Willie spent about 15 minutes on his instructional treatise) on the principles of an orthodox stroke - it will be very hard to argue with the principles he presents; and any student wanting to become proficient as rapidly as possible will at least have a method that works (instead of trying to invent one on their own - the traditional way that champions have developed their strokes, and the traditional way that scores of wannabe's become frustrated and give up this grand game).

John B. will be in Betmore's Basement for a couple of days next week for bank lessons; I will try to post some info on the lessons and experience (some of the local pro's will join us).

 

[genomachino]

100

Yes Jerry, I think a number of things were from his perspective and might not be the same for others. (Feet 8" apart???? Pleeeeeeze!

He sure favored an upright position rather than being low on the cue.

I also think I saw a photograph that indicated that while he was right handed, he may have been left eye dominant, FWIW.

100% correct........

I'm finding from my studies and teaching that most players are opposite eye dominant. Don't know the exact numbers but it appears around 65% to 75%. This is just a guess but an eduacated one that has merit.

He did play auful good didn't he. Heads above all the rest in his time.

Good post.

Thanks geno.............

 

[nksmfamjp]

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

I love this book. I too shoot as much like this as I can. This gives me tthe smoothest stroke. At the end though, when I am in dead stroke, my tip does come to a sofft touch to the table. . .maybe I have more to learn!! I have just found that not touching the table or close results in less consistent vertical tip contact point accuracy. YMMV

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

This does not work for me at 6'2", but I do feel more secure with a straight back leg and bent front leg.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Works pretty well for me except I follow through to a natural stop point, regardless of length. . . .or wher the shot requires it to stop.

I really enjoy this book and think even though it is short, there is a lot in it.

 

[justnum]

Not only did he beat players on the table but he was beating them before they became players. He probably had a good laugh seeing the people who followed his "advice". He could've made it a scene if they asked him for help with understanding his book.

 

[maldito]

Someone told me that Willie also had a "slip stroke" but not as pronounced as Jimmy Moore or Cicero Murphy - this is another style/technique that you don't see anymore.

 

[jay helfert]

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA

They were friends, just like Joey Mosconi and Jay Greenleaf!

 

[JB Cases]

I think the R.A. Dyer uncovered a bit more research about Willie that indicates that he and Greenleaf were not friends. If I remember right the story goes that Brunswick paired them up for exhibitions and Greenleaf was intensely competitive and tried hard to win every night and didn't offer Willie any advice whatsoever. I think it was also written that Greenleaf became more and more sullen towards the end of the trip when Willie began to win more and more of the nightly matches.

Regarding the advice I think a couple things about it. One is that since Willie's time the game has changed to rotation pool which requires a lot more cueball movement than straight pool does and the cloth is faster. These two things will cause the shooter to adopt a different stance as the shots presented require that the shooter do a lot of stretching out over the table. Two is that in the intervening years the science of pool has come a long way and instructors are able to analyze and refine their teaching methods a lot more.

Lastly the elbow drop is a natural movement that comes from shooting and following through. It is impossible to keep the elbow from dropping AND to have a good follow through at the same time. That's simple mechanics to see that. What SHOULD not happen though is that the elbow drops BEFORE hitting the ball. You can spend hours on YouTube watching great players play and you will see their elbows dropping all the time AFTER the cue ball is struck.

 

[JoeyA]

I agree. Everyone is built different and have different balance points. One size doesn't fit all. Willie was wrong and a poor teacher. I read the book years ago. Johnnyt

What was Willie wrong about Johnny?

 

[JoeyA]

JA,
As many know here, I consider Willie M. the greatest of all time; but not necessarily the greatest there will ever be, and not necessarily the greatest instructor of all time. He is teaching things the way he did it (adequate to get him where he was). His instructional book was a HUGE disappointment to those of us thinking it could get us to a similarly proficient level - a very inadequate reference for anyone other than a novice student.

I cannot wait for Mark Wilson to publish his work (at least 15 years now in the making - I'm suspicious that Willie spent about 15 minutes on his instructional treatise) on the principles of an orthodox stroke - it will be very hard to argue with the principles he presents; and any student wanting to become proficient as rapidly as possible will at least have a method that works (instead of trying to invent one on their own - the traditional way that champions have developed their strokes, and the traditional way that scores of wannabe's become frustrated and give up this grand game).

John B. will be in Betmore's Basement for a couple of days next week for bank lessons; I will try to post some info on the lessons and experience (some of the local pro's will join us).

JB in Betmore's basement.... AWESOME.

You've spoken about Mark Wilson's upcoming book more than once and I like it. Is there any target date in mind?

thanks,
JoeyA