Why can't a cuemaker post his new cues on the FOR SALE section anymore?
No new cues on WANTED/FOR SALE anymore?
- Thread starter Killer Miller
- Start date
answer
Got my answer. Seems fair but you always have some buyers who you just can't satisfy so they go to extremes.
We have tried to be cuemaker friendly for the last fifteen years. However, we are now awash with legal fees from folks who want to hold us responsible for what others do on our forums. We can no longer afford the legal fees for this.
The reason that Ebay charges to make a sale on their site is mainly due to the liability insurance they have to have. We are paying out all of our profit to lawyers who are defending us from ridiculous legal claims made against us by folks who buy and sell cues on our forum.
Enough is enough. A few bad eggs have ruined the party for everyone else. We can no longer allow new cue sales on the forums. You can let everyone know you are selling a cue by posting a notice that carries them to Ebay to complete the sale.
Sorry, but unless the cuemakers who sell here want to kick in on the 12-15 K per year we are spending on lawyers we cannot continue with the old ways.
Got my answer. Seems fair but you always have some buyers who you just can't satisfy so they go to extremes.
We have tried to be cuemaker friendly for the last fifteen years. However, we are now awash with legal fees from folks who want to hold us responsible for what others do on our forums. We can no longer afford the legal fees for this.
The reason that Ebay charges to make a sale on their site is mainly due to the liability insurance they have to have. We are paying out all of our profit to lawyers who are defending us from ridiculous legal claims made against us by folks who buy and sell cues on our forum.
Enough is enough. A few bad eggs have ruined the party for everyone else. We can no longer allow new cue sales on the forums. You can let everyone know you are selling a cue by posting a notice that carries them to Ebay to complete the sale.
Sorry, but unless the cuemakers who sell here want to kick in on the 12-15 K per year we are spending on lawyers we cannot continue with the old ways.
They said they were going to start posting some of the trivial lawsuits and the perpetrators, so we could see what the problem is. I haven't seen that yet, but I don't re-read that sticky on a daily basis.
Gary
Here is a link to the information for those interested.
what kind of attorney only charges 12-15k, especially in regards to multiple filings, over the course of a year?
What I don't understand is how is it just this site with this problem and not the thousands of other sites out there with for sale forums?
Any brand of car you can think of will have a website dedicated to it, with a for sale forum, almost any hobby you can imagine also has a website with a for sale forum in it, lots of them are much smaller than AZ as well so I'm sure they aren't buying any liability insurance.
Surely there is something written in your TOS that excludes AZ from any liability when someone joins the forum?
Like Mr. Hoppe said, why would there be lawsuits from people only buying new cues and not every other item that is sold on the forums?
Doesn't make sense.
Any brand of car you can think of will have a website dedicated to it, with a for sale forum, almost any hobby you can imagine also has a website with a for sale forum in it, lots of them are much smaller than AZ as well so I'm sure they aren't buying any liability insurance.
Surely there is something written in your TOS that excludes AZ from any liability when someone joins the forum?
Like Mr. Hoppe said, why would there be lawsuits from people only buying new cues and not every other item that is sold on the forums?
Doesn't make sense.
It is sad that a few A holes can spoil it for the rest of us.
Cue makers are what makes this forum happen. Excluding them from the
For Sale forum is like a kick in the pants.
Cue makers are what makes this forum happen. Excluding them from the
For Sale forum is like a kick in the pants.
Well for starters, How many that have chimed in on this thread (and the multitude of others) are club members??? Only one other than myself is the answer in this thread. When things go wrong on a deal in a forum, and the person responsable is not tracable easily, then the pissed off person will get a lawyer to go after the board that was hosting the ad that was selling the item. It's the 'new american way'. Now considering MOST of the complainers of this 'new' rules change have NEVER financially contributed to the running of this forum, it's intersting how much they B**** when it's not their money tied up in lawyers fees, etc. due to other NON supporting members deciding to sue the forum. Now how many people here have sold alot of stuff here for years, for FREE!!!!??????? NEVER being a club member or buying advertizing banners??? How can you feel you have been dissed, when you have never paid a dime to this board for all the profits you have made off here? How many people that use that for sale/ wanted forum have actually read all the rules??? most haven't. The forum owners are only enforcing the original rules due to too many idiots that have taken advantage of their lack of oversight, and now it's costing them money. If you want to sell your cues, as a cue maker, then why not pay someone to build a website? You want to be compensated for your work as a builder, then compensate the place you sell out of, it's only common sense, and curtousy. I know quite a few makers that are taking this change and B****ing loudly about it, but they have no right to IMO. They want to be paid for their work, but the forum needs money also, But there is no club sign next to their name, and alot of times it's due to that maker or seller F'n people over that may have caused this situation, and someone has to pay that bill. Maybe if 1/2 the makers that sell here were clubmembers or paid for advertising, then maybe the situation would be different. I'm tired of reading all the complaints both here on this site and one other by people that should have a better understanding. The F/S section was for USED stuff right from the begining, just read the rules.... It's not too hard to figure out.
I'm really surprise at some of the peoiple that have issues with this as I thought they had a better grip on reality than They appear too.
Just all the B^&%#$ing that has gone on about this change, should show those same people why this change/enforcement of the rules is needed. They feel owed simply because they they are who they are.
Enough said, I'll get off my box now, just had to finally put my piece out there, seeing as I atleast paid for a membership...........
Dave
I'm really surprise at some of the peoiple that have issues with this as I thought they had a better grip on reality than They appear too.
Just all the B^&%#$ing that has gone on about this change, should show those same people why this change/enforcement of the rules is needed. They feel owed simply because they they are who they are.
Enough said, I'll get off my box now, just had to finally put my piece out there, seeing as I atleast paid for a membership...........
Dave
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There isn't anything that can prevent a lawsuit from being filed. Plain and simple. Now whether it will go to court or not is another matter. But the moment a suit is filed, you as the forum owner now need to have a lawyer respond, and follow things, etc. Even if it gets dissmissed, the lawyers need to get paid. In most cases, a lot of those forums either charge a fee to the seller, or you have to pay a yearly fee to be able to sell on those forums. Eventually, as a forum owner you will need to get the insurance, but geez that costs also....see my point? It all costs money and MOST members here won't cough it up.
If you look around on here you will find alot of good people have gotten F'd on deals here. If you were screwed out of $2500 on a cue deal, would you be pissed? would you consider getting a lawyer seeing that you can't find him, but you know that same person screwed other people here before you got screwed, and he wasn't banned? It can be argued that they can be responsible for the deal even though they had no knowledge of the deal itself. Some lawyers will jump on that in a heartbeat. To think anything otherwise is foolish and naive, IMO. Just read the papers. Illegal alien lost fingers in benchsaw accident and made 1.something million here in Mass. 2 years ago from Ryobi. He couldn't read english and lost some fingers due to him not being able to read the manual which was in english...and the manufacture had to pay for his lack of learning.
Not fair, but it's our system, due to our own people serving on those juries.
Just My take from the cheap seats.
Dave
excellent info, dave, and well stated
i sell about 10 cues a year on azb and would be more than willing to pay to do so. would it be possible to set up a section for small time or custom builders like me to sell cues for a fee to azb? if that's too much of a problem, i really don't see anything wrong, with posting a cue on e-bay and listing it here in the fs section. if that solves all the azb problems.
chuck starkey
i sell about 10 cues a year on azb and would be more than willing to pay to do so. would it be possible to set up a section for small time or custom builders like me to sell cues for a fee to azb? if that's too much of a problem, i really don't see anything wrong, with posting a cue on e-bay and listing it here in the fs section. if that solves all the azb problems.
chuck starkey
I belong to at least 15 sites and none of them charge to sell on them, In fact I have not seen one that charges to sell, they only take memberships like this one does. A few of these sites are a lot bigger than AZ as well.
Looks like AZ has around 35,000 members with 3 million posts, one site I frequent has almost 400,000 members and 20 million posts just for an example and they don't have the problems with people selling on there as it seems AZ does as far as I know.
That is why new laws are passed, to punish those who are good people, because of the acts of BAD APPLES!
Interesting. I thought the main reason eBay charged to make a sale was profit. After all, they are a corporation in business to make money and facilitating sales is the service their business provides.
Kevin
Chuck
The new rules seem particularly unfair to guys like yourself and lets say, Brent Hartman (BHQ), and it seems crazy that banning the sales of handmade new items would somehow help with lawsuits. As Mr Hoppe points out, there has to be something afoot that we are not privy to. I loved the idea of being a member of a forum where craftsmen were supported in furthering their craft.
Kevin
First of all, I highly doubt the ownership of AZB would want to charge a fee for people to sell on here. This place just isn't big enough to create the revenue that an Ebay does, and would still have to deal with potential lawsuits.
But isn't there something else? Specifically the interests of the dealers and retail companies that pay for advertising on this site and do so without directly posting into the for sale section? What's fair is fair, so if anyone is allowed to do it then everyone should be allowed to. Can you imagine what the for sale section would look like if PoolDawg and Seyberts decided to start a thread for each and every single one of the products they carry - and bump them 3X a day? And if they did this they would not also need to pay for advertising. Try selling your five year old Predator shaft in that environment.
I'm guessing this is also part of the reason for the banning of NEW products by dealers, but not used ones.
But isn't there something else? Specifically the interests of the dealers and retail companies that pay for advertising on this site and do so without directly posting into the for sale section? What's fair is fair, so if anyone is allowed to do it then everyone should be allowed to. Can you imagine what the for sale section would look like if PoolDawg and Seyberts decided to start a thread for each and every single one of the products they carry - and bump them 3X a day? And if they did this they would not also need to pay for advertising. Try selling your five year old Predator shaft in that environment.
I'm guessing this is also part of the reason for the banning of NEW products by dealers, but not used ones.
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That is a very good point about the clutter it would cause. On my new site, we now have it set up so any dealer, maker, etc. can have their own forum on the front page with a logo (store front) This way if you want to see "pooldawg" or whoever, you go to their forum. It is a very small site now, but I think this idea will catch on. Now before someone comes along and accuses me of tagging my site here, it was just to prove a point....there is a way to do it. I have a WFS section separate from the dealer personal forums. Maybe they should do something like that here....
Wait until deals go wrong and you get pulled into the mess to try and straighten it out and end up in a courtroom. Not to mention the additional costs for servers and bandwidth usage that can occur with hi res pictures if it does catch on. Everyone thinks its a piece of cake to run a free forum with cuemakers/dealers, at no charge to them, until it all goes to S$%t, and your left holding the bag on bad deals, because if you supply the means for them to contact and rip off others, you become as guilty as the offender in most states in a civil suit. It's call facilitation. It doesn't matter what EUA you post and they sign, you will get pulled in, no matter what. And the legal fees will start. It's pretty simple matter of law. Will they succeed? probably not, but you as the forum owner will have to spend money on lawyers to do the dance. Another consideration is if the cuemaker will not spend money to host and promote their product on your site, are they really worth the risk you take hosting it for them on your dime? They have nothing to lose, but you will. I sincerly wish everyone that thinks they have the answer by providing these free sites, 'Good Luck and better you than me' I've worked with the public for 30+ years, and have a very good idea how all of this will turn out eventually.
Dave