It's The CB

[ironman]

I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt

It will be an ongoing argument for years to come I feel. The egg or the Chicken?
i would be curious to know the opinion of 3 players on these topics, Buddy, Hopkins, and Segal?? Then to complicate things, let's throw in two contrasting in style players like David Matlock and Greg Stevens.
I ran around with Stevens in the 70's and asked him in the car once what he aimed at and how he learned to be one of the best at pocketing balls who has ever played. he said he could aim at several different points on every shot depending on where he wanted the cue ball.
Now Matlock and Buddy had similar styles as they were always on the right side of the ball when they fell into the zone and what started looking very odd turned out to be often brilliant and effortless. i asked Matlock the same question once and he gave pretty much the same answer as Stevens although they played as differently as night and day. i asked Buddy and was totally lost after 15 minutes of his dissertation. i think though he and Matlock were on the same page.
Segal was more of a combination of Buddy and Stevens and had that powerful stroke that kept him out of trouble over and over again and again, Plus the new Texas Express rules were tailor made for him.
I bet that if you put them all at the round table, it could very near end in a fist fight at which bet all your dough on Stevens who had a great right. Hopkins would have been relentless with that great jab. MS would be selling ticket for the event and Buddy would be practicing.
So in knowing each shot and whereto get on each next ball so on and so on is a vital part of the game.
At this point of the match if still thinking about alignment and machanics after 5000 hours of practice, it really doesn't matter because he would not have made it that far anyway.
So my implication is that once in the zone, they didn't think as much on all this as most think. They were on automatic pilot.
So i am right where I began, the egg or the Chicken?

 

[randyg]

I think Johnnyt has the cart before the horse here.

We have very little "control" of the cue ball. Therefore the question has to be asked: What controls the cue ball"? The answer is quite simple: The cue stick! Now the next question is, "who controls the cue stick"? Now we can get to the root of cue ball control!!!!
randyg

 

[Maniac]

It will be an ongoing argument for years to come I feel. The egg or the Chicken?

They both make for a good sandwich :thumbup:!!!

Seriously, these "ongoing arguments" are much food-for-thought and what makes AZB such a great place to learn!!!

Maniac

 

[TheThaiger]

Shoot straight, my friends!!!

Amen. Why is it snooker players neither use nor even talk about aiming systems? The game that DEMANDS absolute precision, with brutal pockets. And it's never an issue. Hmmm.

Because they can cue.

 

[ShootingArts]

Always glad to help!

I think Johnnyt has the cart before the horse here.

We have very little "control" of the cue ball. Therefore the question has to be asked: What controls the cue ball"? The answer is quite simple: The cue stick! Now the next question is, "who controls the cue stick"? Now we can get to the root of cue ball control!!!!
randyg

Randy,

You are right as almost always but you kinda started in the middle of the train didn't you?

I think Johnnyt has the cart before the horse here.

We have very very little "control" of the object ball.We have very little "control" of the cue ball. Therefore the question has to be asked: What controls the cue ball"? The answer is quite simple: The cue stick! Now the next question is, "who controls the cue stick"? Now we can get to the root of cue ball control!!!!
randyg

Always glad to help!

Hu

 

[justadub]

I shot pool for 15 years using the hit a million balls method. Working on cue ball control. I got to the point where I knew how to spin the cue ball, stun the cue ball, draw the cue ball, and place it on a piece of paper from just about anywhere.

Only in play I would often miss the shot but get perfect shape or make the shot and miss the shape.

I haven't played for 15 years (just over 2) or hit a million balls yet. I'm one of those guys struggling to learn the game. And while I cannot do all things with spin that john speaks of here, I have gotten reasonably good at "getting the leave". Funny thing is, I didn't make the object ball. It happens to me often, sometimes at least once or twice a game. Miss the shot, but give myself great position for the next shot.

Now of course my mechanics need work, too. But I'm quite sure that aiming properly for the shot at hand is far more important than cue ball control. Perhaps a better statement is that aiming is higher on the priority list. Cuz it's all important.

 

[randyg]

Randy,

You are right as almost always but you kinda started in the middle of the train didn't you?



Always glad to help!

Hu

YUP. You said it better than I should have.

Thanks my friend
randyg

 

[Scott Lee]

Damn Pops...There you go again bringing a huge dose of REALITY into the picture! LOL I wouldn't even say "very little"...I'd say NONE. Nobody on Earth can control the CB...not even Efren. :grin: The cuestick controls everything...and our body controls the cuestick.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think Johnnyt has the cart before the horse here.

We have very little "control" of the cue ball. Therefore the question has to be asked: What controls the cue ball"? The answer is quite simple: The cue stick! Now the next question is, "who controls the cue stick"? Now we can get to the root of cue ball control!!!!
randyg

 

[duckie]

I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt

There are a few that really need some reading comprehension classes.

Let me rephrase this to be more clearer.......practicing position play is what matters in being able to run balls and win games and not sitting behind a computer talking about something that really has limited use in the overall aspect of pocket billiards. And yes, I stand by what I write.

Knowing what you need to do with the CB is the first step in knowing where to put the CB on the table to do what you want with the CB.

Take a caroming the CB off another ball to make another ball. First, you have to find the spot on the table to put the CB to make the OB. Then you can find the spot on the table to put the CB to carom off to the spot on the table that makes the OB.

Now, you have to take into account speed, table conditions and so on before you can really say where to put the CB on the table for the first ball hit.

Aiming is the last thing to do in the true process of shot making.

Making great one great shot is meaningless when the position you end up with leads to you losing the game.

I control the CB, there is no separation between the cue stick and me when shooting. The cue is just a extension of my will, hence I control the CB.

 

[whitewolf]

I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt

An improving stroke means position will improve. You must practice both! I do agree with you on the aiming systems - a waste of time - especially for talented people

 

[TheThaiger]

I have gotten reasonably good at "getting the leave". Funny thing is, I didn't make the object ball. It happens to me often, sometimes at least once or twice a game. Miss the shot, but give myself great position for the next shot.

If you miss and get great position on the next ball, you've invariably played a poor positional shot as well.

 

[justadub]

If you miss and get great position on the next ball, you've invariably played a poor positional shot as well.

Trust me, I get that. (thanks for the note, Hu!)

What I meant by my post was that I was in good position for the next ball, not "perfect position", not by any means. When you're a beginner like me, getting into any sort of good position for the next shot, especially on 9-footers, is a good thing.

And yes, if I missed and ended up with good position, odds are that had I made the ball I wouldn't have necessarily been in a similar position on the leave. Again, what I meant (and didn't explain as well, heh) was that in most of these cases I will have rattled the pocket or left a hanger, which means that I've hit my shot pretty close to where it was supposed to be. So it figures that my "leave" would likely have been in a similar location, were I to actually have made the shot.

Either way, I need to make more shots, in the first place. Pool is very humbling...

 

[JoeyInCali]

I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt

You mean imagining each shot as a carom shot ?
Pros don't do that. :grin:

 

[TheThaiger]

Trust me, I get that. (thanks for the note, Hu!)

What I meant by my post was that I was in good position for the next ball, not "perfect position", not by any means. When you're a beginner like me, getting into any sort of good position for the next shot, especially on 9-footers, is a good thing.

And yes, if I missed and ended up with good position, odds are that had I made the ball I wouldn't have necessarily been in a similar position on the leave. Again, what I meant (and didn't explain as well, heh) was that in most of these cases I will have rattled the pocket or left a hanger, which means that I've hit my shot pretty close to where it was supposed to be. So it figures that my "leave" would likely have been in a similar location, were I to actually have made the shot.

Either way, I need to make more shots, in the first place. Pool is very humbling...

Aye, it's a bugger alright!

 

[8pack]

I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt

Position and aiming are one and the same in real play.Position tells you how to aim the shot.You cant have one with out the other.Well you can but things could get tough.

 

[randyg]

If you miss and get great position on the next ball, you've invariably played a poor positional shot as well.

Very true. In school we learn that this missed shot is called a leave, because now you have to leave the table. The only way to have great position is to pocket the ball.
randyg

 

[JB Cases]

Amen. Why is it snooker players neither use nor even talk about aiming systems? The game that DEMANDS absolute precision, with brutal pockets. And it's never an issue. Hmmm.

Because they can cue.

Except on the snooker forums there are lots of threads about aiming.....

Anyone heard of BOB? That stands for Back of the Ball aiming.

Fractional Aiming? Steve Davis teaches that.

One snooker coach invented an elaborate Ghost Ball device to help with aiming.

Please stick to truth when making statements. Anyone can get on google and find snooker forums with discussions about aiming. Anyone can find plenty of snooker coaches who talk a lot about aiming.

Don't try to tell us that aiming is not talked about or taught in snooker.

 

[JB Cases]

There are a few that really need some reading comprehension classes.

Let me rephrase this to be more clearer.......practicing position play is what matters in being able to run balls and win games and not sitting behind a computer talking about something that really has limited use in the overall aspect of pocket billiards. And yes, I stand by what I write.

Knowing what you need to do with the CB is the first step in knowing where to put the CB on the table to do what you want with the CB.

Take a caroming the CB off another ball to make another ball. First, you have to find the spot on the table to put the CB to make the OB. Then you can find the spot on the table to put the CB to carom off to the spot on the table that makes the OB.

Now, you have to take into account speed, table conditions and so on before you can really say where to put the CB on the table for the first ball hit.

Aiming is the last thing to do in the true process of shot making.

Making great one great shot is meaningless when the position you end up with leads to you losing the game.

I control the CB, there is no separation between the cue stick and me when shooting. The cue is just a extension of my will, hence I control the CB.

Have you progressed to a 3 yet?

Statements like this indicate that you will have a tough time of it;

"Aiming is the last thing to do in the true process of shot making. " - Duckie

Can we see some videos of you beating the ghost? I want to see the "extension of will" method of playing pool. My will must not be as strong as yours because I think I want to run out and yet my will doesn't extend to my arm consistently.

 

[dareads]

Even though I use no aiming system, I am not closed minded enough to not see the benefit. I can only equate it to being in "the zone". I recently had a night that I was in the zone. I was looking at each shot and didn't have to give the shot itself a second thought and I instantly went to the position for the next ball.

That's how I envision someone with accurate knowledge of an aiming system feeling as they line up to shoot. You know where you are going to hit the ball so then it's just a matter of finding the tangent line and deciding what you need to do from there.

We can all agree that both aiming and position are important. Which one is more important? That unfortunately, is opinion. I guess I lean more towards the side of aiming taking top priority. I'd rather make 90% of my shots and get perfect shape 50% of the time than make 50% of my shots and get perfect shape 90% of the time.

Maybe it's just the math dork in my but I would love to see some statistics on what percentage of shots are missed due to bad position vs bad aim.

 

[ShootingArts]

I think Willie answered the question

Even though I use no aiming system, I am not closed minded enough to not see the benefit. I can only equate it to being in "the zone". I recently had a night that I was in the zone. I was looking at each shot and didn't have to give the shot itself a second thought and I instantly went to the position for the next ball.

That's how I envision someone with accurate knowledge of an aiming system feeling as they line up to shoot. You know where you are going to hit the ball so then it's just a matter of finding the tangent line and deciding what you need to do from there.

We can all agree that both aiming and position are important. Which one is more important? That unfortunately, is opinion. I guess I lean more towards the side of aiming taking top priority. I'd rather make 90% of my shots and get perfect shape 50% of the time than make 50% of my shots and get perfect shape 90% of the time.

Maybe it's just the math dork in my but I would love to see some statistics on what percentage of shots are missed due to bad position vs bad aim.

I think Willie Mosconi answered your question. His exhibitions were often unimpressive to people that didn't realize what they were watching. He ran rack after rack playing straight pool without ever pocketing a ball that looked to be a harder shot than anybody with a month or two's experience could make.

He was a fantastic rep for Brunswick because he made it appear anybody could shoot pool effortlessly. With position you don't need much else. Of course by the time you can see patterns and play shape effortlessly you can do everything else too! :thumbup:

Hu