USBTC Professional or not?

I'd have been a little miffed as well had my earlier match been on the same table and it had been an open table... It would have been along the lines of wondering if they were trying to nickle and dime everyone to death.....

At DCC the only free table was the TV table and if the change at USBTC was made after matches had been played that way it was a nit move....

How much money was generated by making it a pay table? Was it worth it for Stevie and many others to think it was a nickle and dime nit move?

The stream table not only is good for the sponsors but it is VERY good for the tournament because it raises the level of exposure.....

Add greens fees next year and open them all or at least go back next year and leave the stream table free....
 
SpinDoctor said:
Hmm, a pro who expects the world and wants it for free...this is a new concept. This is exactly why pool has been in the toilet for years, Stevie needs to be thankful that someone puts on events of this magnitude and allows him to do what he loves to earn a living.

Until the time comes that players realize that sponsors need more than someone with a pulse and a bad attitude to represent them, pool will continue to die a slow death. Every time I see horrible behavior, forfeits, on camera tirades and players insulting the people/companies who are willing to put up their hard earned cash to run these events I quietly hope that the well dries up and these self-righteous pool losers are forced to look for a real job.
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Bingo! Well said. The pool industry is supported by the dead money on this very forum looking for the next cue, magic tip, chalk, pool shoes etc..NOT THE PROS!
 
The Renfro said:
I'd have been a little miffed as well had my earlier match been on the same table and it had been an open table... It would have been along the lines of wondering if they were trying to nickle and dime everyone to death.....

At DCC the only free table was the TV table and if the change at USBTC was made after matches had been played that way it was a nit move....

How much money was generated by making it a pay table? Was it worth it for Stevie and many others to think it was a nickle and dime nit move?

The stream table not only is good for the sponsors but it is VERY good for the tournament because it raises the level of exposure.....

Add greens fees next year and open them all or at least go back next year and leave the stream table free....
Click to expand...

It was explained earlier that the decision to charge on stream table was based on the fact "ALL PLAYERS SHOULD BE TREATED EQUAL". Not to nickle and dime the players. Playing on stream table was based on popularity and quality of players. Now, average player like myself would never be on stream table, so is it fair that I have to pay to play every time yet someone who's pro level who will cash anyway get to play for free?

Let's not forget, when they are on stream table, Ken Schuman - the commentator extraordinaire mentioned on air of all the player's sponsors. That was free plug for their sponsors which is beneficial to the players and help ensure further or added sponsorship. So players are getting added incentive to play on stream table.

You're absolutely right, the stream table didn't raise that much money since it was not in use for the full time of tournament. There was only about 4-6 matches a day. This was total of $25,500 ADDED tournament. If promoter wanted to be nitty, then it would had been $15,500 added instead.

S.G.
 
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The Renfro said:
I'd have been a little miffed as well had my earlier match been on the same table and it had been an open table... It would have been along the lines of wondering if they were trying to nickle and dime everyone to death.....

At DCC the only free table was the TV table and if the change at USBTC was made after matches had been played that way it was a nit move....

How much money was generated by making it a pay table? Was it worth it for Stevie and many others to think it was a nickle and dime nit move?

The stream table not only is good for the sponsors but it is VERY good for the tournament because it raises the level of exposure.....

Add greens fees next year and open them all or at least go back next year and leave the stream table free....
Click to expand...

I disagree with the nit move thing but whatever.

People act like the stream at big events is just something extra. That was the case four years ago. Today it is an integral part of them.

I woud prefer greens fees but people will still find a way to complain because whatever they are they will be too much. It all goes back to the strange notion many have in pool that no one but players should ever make any money.

From a promoters point of view you need bodies. Bottom line. The more people you get to the hotel the better terms you can get from them. Now if you switch to greens fees and have to raise your entry fee by some number (I have no clue what it really would be) by $30-$40 per event will you get more bodies or less bodies? I don't know the answer but to me that is the question.

I would favor greens fees by a large margin. All the tables are open all the time so if you want to hit balls you just go do it on an open table. This presents issues but greens fees eliminates a lot of hassles. Mark and CSI usually have a reason for doing things and they are open to change so if it is shown that greens fees will better suit more players WHO ACTUALLY COME TO THE EVENTS AND NOT JUST PONTIFICATE ABOUT THINGS ON THE INTERNET then I think they would make those changes.

That bold part is important by the way.
 
JCIN said:
From a promoters point of view you need bodies. Bottom line. The more people you get to the hotel the better terms you can get from them. Now if you switch to greens fees and have to raise your entry fee by some number (I have no clue what it really would be) by $30-$40 per event will you get more bodies or less bodies? I don't know the answer but to me that is the question.

I would favor greens fees by a large margin. All the tables are open all the time so if you want to hit balls you just go do it on an open table. This presents issues but greens fees eliminates a lot of hassles. Mark and CSI usually have a reason for doing things and they are open to change so if it is shown that greens fees will better suit more players WHO ACTUALLY COME TO THE EVENTS AND NOT JUST PONTIFICATE ABOUT THINGS ON THE INTERNET then I think they would make those changes.

That bold part is important by the way.
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That's what I tried to say before. I was there at the event. I played and paid each game, so did my opponents, so did everyone around me. No one complained about it who played in it!!
 
I still have some coins left over for next year!

Funny story: I went into the tournament room early to hit some balls before my match. A guy came up to me and started telling me a story about how he had to leave the tournament early for personal reasons. I lent a sympathetic ear for a minute (I had never met this dude), figuring he was lonely and just wanted to chat. Then he says to me "I have 2 tokens left over in my pocket that I'm not going to use...want to buy them from me"?
 
easy-e said:
I still have some coins left over for next year!

Funny story: I went into the tournament room early to hit some balls before my match. A guy came up to me and started telling me a story about how he had to leave the tournament early for personal reasons. I lent a sympathetic ear for a minute (I had never met this dude), figuring he was lonely and just wanted to chat. Then he says to me "I have 2 tokens left over in my pocket that I'm not going to use...want to buy them from me"?
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I wanted to buy some gum balls in the lobby!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
 
Dollar-Gate is a microcosm of what's wrong with pro pool. The financials of running a profitable pool tournament just isn't there. If promoting pool was profitable, there would be tournaments galore. Rooms like having tournaments because it brings bodies into their place of business. But, promoting a tournament in a hotel or convention place takes a huge financial commitment that doesn't always pan out.

I can empathize with Stevie. Being a pro pool player is a tough job. But, pool isn't like tennis, golf, or even bowling. There isn't a lot of money in the sport. This isn't a big secret. Don't become a pro player then b**ch about it later. Understand that it's a business. The issue is that the players think about the bird in hand and not the future. It's understandable, they are just trying to survive doing something they love to do. It's a two edged sword.

To make a living playing pool, the players need to look for multiple streams of income including sponsorship. Give lessons, exhibitions, gambling, tournaments, etc. Be aggressive in obtaining sponsorship. Be professional and look at playing on the stream table as privilege. You never know who is watching and would be a potential sponsor down the road. Hopefully, Stevie can apologize for the behavior and learn from it. He has some valid points but his messaging system could use a little work.
 
JCIN said:
I disagree with the nit move thing but whatever.

People act like the stream at big events is just something extra. That was the case four years ago. Today it is an integral part of them.

I woud prefer greens fees but people will still find a way to complain because whatever they are they will be too much. It all goes back to the strange notion many have in pool that no one but players should ever make any money.

From a promoters point of view you need bodies. Bottom line. The more people you get to the hotel the better terms you can get from them. Now if you switch to greens fees and have to raise your entry fee by some number (I have no clue what it really would be) by $30-$40 per event will you get more bodies or less bodies? I don't know the answer but to me that is the question.

I would favor greens fees by a large margin. All the tables are open all the time so if you want to hit balls you just go do it on an open table. This presents issues but greens fees eliminates a lot of hassles. Mark and CSI usually have a reason for doing things and they are open to change so if it is shown that greens fees will better suit more players WHO ACTUALLY COME TO THE EVENTS AND NOT JUST PONTIFICATE ABOUT THINGS ON THE INTERNET then I think they would make those changes.

That bold part is important by the way.
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You got me there... I didn't come to the USBTC.... Been to the last 4 Opens... Guess I missed you there.... Masters 10Ball... Was right there front row.... DCC every year I can get there.... Music City Open... YOU BETCHA.... TN Amateur... Nope they charge quarters and not greens fees I just don't like having pocket full of change...... Misc Viking events used to be the norm and GSBT as often as work allows.........

I am PONTIFICATING as an actual person who does attend as many events as my budget and schedule allows and actually play in ones close enough to me to be economically viable...........

Greens fees to me will always be the best way to handle the quarters/tokens issue...

But even without the greens fee lets look at the TV table from a good business model and not from the standpoint of someone pontificating on the internet who attends but doesn't play in any events......

In events where there will be no DVDs produced or there is no PPV and where there may or may not be advertising sold by the streamer how do you NOT at least pay the table tokens for your 2 center stage performers???

I am not a fan of the rockstar attitudes of some of the pros that think they should get paid to be streamed but I do think that IF you are put on the TV table it should at least not cost you to play since they are using your performance for the benefit of the stream and tournament.....

I have lots of respect for Mark and I am 100% sure that you are correct in that when it all shakes out he will make the best decision for all involved parties... I just wish I had gotten to meet Sunny as well last month.........
 
the lesser players want to be treated as an equal to a pro, the tournaments want to treat the pros like the lesser players but still want them to be pros and use there celebrity, the pros want to be treated as pros... everyone complains about the present state of pool, but nobody is drawing a line and saying this how it is... My opinion and im not trying to start anything personal, im just saying how it looks like to me.
 
I have read this thread with a lot of interewst (and some amusement).

I will try to respond over the weekend to some of the posts.

Likewise, some of the posts will not get a response.

There are a lot of people thinking they know the answers and how to run an event without KNOWING all the facts.

I will try to pull out the good stuff in this thread (and there is some) but too many people are over simplyfying the situation.

There are reasons we do what we do.

I would also suggest maybe some of these pwople should go out and try it for awhile. It is not as easy as it looks!!

Thanks for everyone's interest.

Mark Griffin
 
Like Mark I just read this entire thread. One difference is I didn't find much that was amusing, other than JCIN's first post. His wonderful sense of humor and well reasoned analysis of what ACTUALLY transpired was by far the highlight of this thread imo.

First of all I'd like to say that I know Ric Jones quite well and he does an excellent job of running pool tournaments! He is an asset to the pool world and the only reason he isn't better known is that he prefers it that way. Ric is a low key kind of guy, who shuns the spotlight for the most part. It is perfectly logical for him to respond here after so many innuendos about what took place prior to the match, many of them posted on AZ.

Additionally Ken Shuman who was hired by Ric to act as TD for this event is simply one of the best in the business. He was the point man in dealing with the complaints lodged by Stevie Moore. As usual Ken acted in a totally professional manner until things began to get way out of hand, and Ric came on the scene. Frankly I'm surprised Ken didn't issue a forfeit after the first F bomb came his way. He showed a lot of restraint and gave Stevie way too much leeway imo. There is no room in professional pool for players acting like assholes and fools. THAT is what hurts pool, not so many of the other things that people are focusing on here.

Like Ric, I'm tired of seeing people make excuses for the bad behavior of a few immature pool players. When I see and hear people defending the poor behavior of Earl Strickland over and over again it makes me wonder about them as well, that they would tolerate behavior like this. I know that I won't, and so does Earl! For those of you that think Stevie Moore is some kind of saint, you would be wrong. I have no beef with Stevie at this time and it wasn't my call on what happened in Reno, but frankly I'm not surprised in the least.

Like Justin, I think that perhaps the streaming table could be opened as a bonus for those who get to play on it. But that isn't my call so I don't get to vote. Hate on me if you like, but I can relate to what guys like Mark, Ric, Kenny and Justin go through in their quest to put on good events that benefit pool players and the pool world in general. As Justin so wisely pointed out, without the efforts of people like this there would be NO professional pool in the United States. It is a thankless task at best (exemplified by this thread), and one without a great deal of financial reward. Bottom line, you've got to love pool to do this job!

That's my two cents and it only cost you a nickel of your time to read it. :wink:
 
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The Renfro said:
Trying like heck... Tax season is still upon us.... 13days at DCC put me behind the 8ball on getting all of my clients to have happy shiny faces......
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13 days of DCC ain't no joke :thumbup:

Jump the 8 and hope to see you in Philly.

S.G.
 
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