Excellent point. I saw Mosconi play an exhibition near the end of his career. It was absolutely amazing to see him pocket balls. Monster play is right.
Mosconi's 526
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Excellent point. I saw Mosconi play an exhibition near the end of his career. It was absolutely amazing to see him pocket balls. Monster play is right.
I grew up in nearby Dayton and played in that room in the early 60's. I may have played on that very table. There weren't any tables with big pockets in that poolroom, I'm guessing all were slightly under 5", maybe 4.75". The old Brunswick Sport Kings "oversized" eight footers (46" x 92" playing surface) that I grew up on were NOT soft tables! They had straight cut pockets with deep shelves. You damn sure would miss if you hit the corners of the pocket.
I'd like to replicate that table (get an old 8' Sport King and put new cloth on it) and see what today's top players could run on it. I'm betting they could play every day for a month and no one would run 500! Mosconi used to guarantee a 100+ run every day in his exhibitions, and he would do it in the first or second inning! I saw (and played him once) him do several exhibitions and his cue ball control was comparable to Efren at his peak. Maybe even a little better! JMHO as always.
I'd like to replicate that table (get an old 8' Sport King and put new cloth on it) and see what today's top players could run on it. I'm betting they could play every day for a month and no one would run 500! Mosconi used to guarantee a 100+ run every day in his exhibitions, and he would do it in the first or second inning! I saw (and played him once) him do several exhibitions and his cue ball control was comparable to Efren at his peak. Maybe even a little better! JMHO as always.
Why not just setup a Brunswick table of that era with the same size pockets, same balls, and same cloth and let everyone go at it? Stream the video. Get some sponsors. Could even show some vintage video of the greats of Mosconi's era. Post the best efforts on YouTube.
Might bring some life back into the game. I know I would watch. I might even take a road trip to see it in person.
Might bring some life back into the game. I know I would watch. I might even take a road trip to see it in person.
Good question...
Even convince someone to bring out one of the cues, or type of cue he used that day!
or have 2 tables one old, original equipment, next to new style tables, best of the best! With "anything goes" for newer table, but has a smaller size pot!
Get some sponsors, and give some smaller prizes along the way.
Hype it up, and keep rolling until some one finally does it, while recording every attempt!
Why not just setup a Brunswick table of that era with the same size pockets, same balls, and same cloth and let everyone go at it? Stream the video. Get some sponsors. Could even show some vintage video of the greats of Mosconi's era. Post the best efforts on YouTube.
Might bring some life back into the game. I know I would watch. I might even take a road trip to see it in person.
Even convince someone to bring out one of the cues, or type of cue he used that day!
or have 2 tables one old, original equipment, next to new style tables, best of the best! With "anything goes" for newer table, but has a smaller size pot!
Get some sponsors, and give some smaller prizes along the way.
Hype it up, and keep rolling until some one finally does it, while recording every attempt!
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if you look closely at the document, you'll notice that the ref, the hall owner, and bruney - his opponent, all signed their names.
in my humble opinion, they'd never have done that, if there was any doubt that his run was legit.
i'd like to see you run 526 on any table
in my humble opinion, they'd never have done that, if there was any doubt that his run was legit.
i'd like to see you run 526 on any table
To Break The 526 Run, You Need 3-4 Tries Like Mosconi
As another poster pointed out. Wiki isn't always reliable......but Willie's autobiography is.....he missed a difficult cut shot on ball # 527....he didn't have a heart attack, he was just tired. It was his 3rd exhibition match that day and remember, they had to drive miles in between these different towns. So Willie shot 3 exhibitions that day so he had 3 tries at running 526 balls that day....so, if you want to be fair, today a competitor attempting to break Willie's run should have at least 3 attempts.
Something that some few folks know but most do not is that Mosconi was under contract to Brunswick Balke-Collender. In 1933, the national title was held at Bensinger's Recreational Amphitheater in Chicago, the best known billiard parlor in the country. Willie finished
5th that year. At the end of the tournament, he was approached by Clyde Storer, who was President of the Billiard Association of America (predecessor organization to BCA). Clyde was also the promotional director of the Brunswick Corporation which was then called Brunswick-Balke-Collender....the leading manufacturer of billiard tables since 1845.
Brunswick maintained a stable of pool and billiard players who toured the country promoting their products. Willie was paid the same pay as everyone else....$600 a month and Brunswick kept 21 players under contract in what they called their Better Billiards Program. The 21 players included the best in the country - Greenleaf, Rudolph, Caras, Hoppe, the 3 cushioon billiards champion. The country was divided into 3 regions with 7 players assigned to each region touring.......East, Midwest & Pacific.
Mosconi's first assignment was a 122 day tour with Ralph Greenleaf and they played each other in exhibition and performed a cadre of trick shots. But they had to always play on Brunswick table and use Brunswick equipment. Willie's first custom cue was made by Herman Rambow and was a Brunswick-Balke-Collender cue 57" long and 19 ozs. He had to always play with a Brunswick cue and on Brunswick tables when he was on tour for them. He was allowed, as were the other 20 players in Brunswick's stable, time off to compete in big regional tournaments and of course, the national championship.....Heck, Brunswick wanted their stable of players to be on the lips of as many people as possible and winning tournaments helped get that done faster than anything else.
There are, and will continue to be, lots of rumors and distortions about Willie's run of 526 balls......The truth be told, it's a record that remains untarnished and lets' not forget Willie's overall tournament records. In the national championship in 1950, Willie had a high run of 141 points (balls) in one (1) inning.........a record that still stands in tournament championship 14.1 pool.
Does it sound like I'm a Mosconi admirer?....You're damn right....Who isn't?.......Hoppe & Mosconi.....The greatest two players in the entire history of billiards and pocket billiards dating back to 1878 when the national championship was played as the game of 61-pool. Then in 1989 to correct the inequity in 61-pool, the game was changed and all 15 balls in the rack had to be pocketed and a new rack was started. Typically, the 1st player to a predetermined total, usually 100 pts (balls).
Finally, in 1912, the game of 14 racked/1 ball free was adopted after the 1910 national champion, Jerome Keogh, suggested changing the rules because championship play became very slow with safety play....No one wanted to chance breaking the rack wide open counting on a ball to drop so they could keep shooting. If a ball didn't drop on the break, your opponent came to the table with a wide open rack and might run all 15 balls. When all 15 balls in the rack were pocketed, a new rack of 15 balls was started and the player remained in control of the table and could either chance breaking the rack open (no need to call anything on the break) hoping some ball would be pocketed or play safe. At championship play level, racks were never broken wide open hoping a ball would fall....everything was basically safety play until one player had a shot where he could go at the rack to bust it open. But then the proces started all over again with thenext rack...play was tediously slow and thus a change was badly needed. Jerome Keogh suggested that the last ball of each rack remain on the table as a target object ball (thus the name 14 ball racked/1 ball free which later was referred to as 14.1. Championship play in straight pool (14.1) has basically remains unchanged since 1912.
During the intervening 100 years, everyone stands in the shadow of Mosconi........the many national tournament records Willie established.........National Champion 15 years in a row......OMG....1947-1958 national champion every single year......and the competiton back at that time was indeed excellent. Even the Boston Celtics only won the NBA title 11 years in a row under Red Auerbach.....15 times in a row is inhuman......Willie supposedly was born and raised in Philadelphia but personally, that's a bunch of crap. Willie Mosconi was actually born on Mount Olympus and was sent to earth to show us mortals what pool greatness is really all about.
So the myths and rumors are just that.....Willie did the unthinkable and no one since has ever come close........and please don't banter and blurb about an unofficial record by some Swede pocketing 633 balls, etc. In the history of pocket billiards, no one has performed as great, consistent, and dominating as Wiliie Mosconi did.......NUF SED!
Matt B.
As another poster pointed out. Wiki isn't always reliable......but Willie's autobiography is.....he missed a difficult cut shot on ball # 527....he didn't have a heart attack, he was just tired. It was his 3rd exhibition match that day and remember, they had to drive miles in between these different towns. So Willie shot 3 exhibitions that day so he had 3 tries at running 526 balls that day....so, if you want to be fair, today a competitor attempting to break Willie's run should have at least 3 attempts.
Something that some few folks know but most do not is that Mosconi was under contract to Brunswick Balke-Collender. In 1933, the national title was held at Bensinger's Recreational Amphitheater in Chicago, the best known billiard parlor in the country. Willie finished
5th that year. At the end of the tournament, he was approached by Clyde Storer, who was President of the Billiard Association of America (predecessor organization to BCA). Clyde was also the promotional director of the Brunswick Corporation which was then called Brunswick-Balke-Collender....the leading manufacturer of billiard tables since 1845.
Brunswick maintained a stable of pool and billiard players who toured the country promoting their products. Willie was paid the same pay as everyone else....$600 a month and Brunswick kept 21 players under contract in what they called their Better Billiards Program. The 21 players included the best in the country - Greenleaf, Rudolph, Caras, Hoppe, the 3 cushioon billiards champion. The country was divided into 3 regions with 7 players assigned to each region touring.......East, Midwest & Pacific.
Mosconi's first assignment was a 122 day tour with Ralph Greenleaf and they played each other in exhibition and performed a cadre of trick shots. But they had to always play on Brunswick table and use Brunswick equipment. Willie's first custom cue was made by Herman Rambow and was a Brunswick-Balke-Collender cue 57" long and 19 ozs. He had to always play with a Brunswick cue and on Brunswick tables when he was on tour for them. He was allowed, as were the other 20 players in Brunswick's stable, time off to compete in big regional tournaments and of course, the national championship.....Heck, Brunswick wanted their stable of players to be on the lips of as many people as possible and winning tournaments helped get that done faster than anything else.
There are, and will continue to be, lots of rumors and distortions about Willie's run of 526 balls......The truth be told, it's a record that remains untarnished and lets' not forget Willie's overall tournament records. In the national championship in 1950, Willie had a high run of 141 points (balls) in one (1) inning.........a record that still stands in tournament championship 14.1 pool.
Does it sound like I'm a Mosconi admirer?....You're damn right....Who isn't?.......Hoppe & Mosconi.....The greatest two players in the entire history of billiards and pocket billiards dating back to 1878 when the national championship was played as the game of 61-pool. Then in 1989 to correct the inequity in 61-pool, the game was changed and all 15 balls in the rack had to be pocketed and a new rack was started. Typically, the 1st player to a predetermined total, usually 100 pts (balls).
Finally, in 1912, the game of 14 racked/1 ball free was adopted after the 1910 national champion, Jerome Keogh, suggested changing the rules because championship play became very slow with safety play....No one wanted to chance breaking the rack wide open counting on a ball to drop so they could keep shooting. If a ball didn't drop on the break, your opponent came to the table with a wide open rack and might run all 15 balls. When all 15 balls in the rack were pocketed, a new rack of 15 balls was started and the player remained in control of the table and could either chance breaking the rack open (no need to call anything on the break) hoping some ball would be pocketed or play safe. At championship play level, racks were never broken wide open hoping a ball would fall....everything was basically safety play until one player had a shot where he could go at the rack to bust it open. But then the proces started all over again with thenext rack...play was tediously slow and thus a change was badly needed. Jerome Keogh suggested that the last ball of each rack remain on the table as a target object ball (thus the name 14 ball racked/1 ball free which later was referred to as 14.1. Championship play in straight pool (14.1) has basically remains unchanged since 1912.
During the intervening 100 years, everyone stands in the shadow of Mosconi........the many national tournament records Willie established.........National Champion 15 years in a row......OMG....1947-1958 national champion every single year......and the competiton back at that time was indeed excellent. Even the Boston Celtics only won the NBA title 11 years in a row under Red Auerbach.....15 times in a row is inhuman......Willie supposedly was born and raised in Philadelphia but personally, that's a bunch of crap. Willie Mosconi was actually born on Mount Olympus and was sent to earth to show us mortals what pool greatness is really all about.
So the myths and rumors are just that.....Willie did the unthinkable and no one since has ever come close........and please don't banter and blurb about an unofficial record by some Swede pocketing 633 balls, etc. In the history of pocket billiards, no one has performed as great, consistent, and dominating as Wiliie Mosconi did.......NUF SED!
Matt B.
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Hohmann and Ortmann, and maybe others, have exceeded 141 in tournament matches. Do you just mean in the final match of an event?
Not saying your wrong but I don't recall either of those two guys doing it with a single inning at the table i.e. off the opening break leave. But I am surprised if this means that Willie as well as others from back then apparently haven't run 150 and out off the opening break in competition.
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High Runs
Sean made a few good points but as always I have mine also.
Mosconi quit at 526 without missing and also quit many,many times with runs over 300 & 400 also.
what size table the 526 on doesnt really matter to me its just that the differences between then and now so here is my explanations on this.
1)Mosconi and no other great players back then ever had ball polish machines or used any illegal silicone to juice up the balls to gain an advantage for the balls to break apart easier and avoid clusters.
2)The balls are much more reactive now.
3) Back then no players ever removed the balls off the table in the middle of any runs to polish or juice up the balls.
The cloth was much slower and todays simonis cloth makes the pockets very forgiven to accept the balls.
4)The cushions today have alot more bounce making it easier to get position.
5) any player that runs over 700 today would not equal Mosconis 526 and probably could not run 500+ without altering the balls.
6)There are probably around 10-15 players alive today that have run over 400 but dont know of any that have done it in an exhibitions just practice.
7) Wimpy Lassiter never kept count of his high runs but on his 5x10 went 5 hours without missing a ball.
Sean made a few good points but as always I have mine also.
Mosconi quit at 526 without missing and also quit many,many times with runs over 300 & 400 also.
what size table the 526 on doesnt really matter to me its just that the differences between then and now so here is my explanations on this.
1)Mosconi and no other great players back then ever had ball polish machines or used any illegal silicone to juice up the balls to gain an advantage for the balls to break apart easier and avoid clusters.
2)The balls are much more reactive now.
3) Back then no players ever removed the balls off the table in the middle of any runs to polish or juice up the balls.
The cloth was much slower and todays simonis cloth makes the pockets very forgiven to accept the balls.
4)The cushions today have alot more bounce making it easier to get position.
5) any player that runs over 700 today would not equal Mosconis 526 and probably could not run 500+ without altering the balls.
6)There are probably around 10-15 players alive today that have run over 400 but dont know of any that have done it in an exhibitions just practice.
7) Wimpy Lassiter never kept count of his high runs but on his 5x10 went 5 hours without missing a ball.
Why not just setup a Brunswick table of that era with the same size pockets, same balls, and same cloth and let everyone go at it? Stream the video. Get some sponsors. Could even show some vintage video of the greats of Mosconi's era. Post the best efforts on YouTube.
Might bring some life back into the game. I know I would watch. I might even take a road trip to see it in person.
I would love to see this. Make them play with the same style and year cue that Mosconi used as well as the tip. I'd watch that!
Sigel ran 150-and-out in his first inning at the table against Mike Zuglan in the 1992 U.S. Open 14.1 Championship.
Now that makes sense, thanks. Then I don't know what Bavafongoul meant by that comment either. Hopefully he'll clarify it.
Can't really duplicate conditions
We can try but can't really duplicate the conditions Mosconi set the record under. I don't know if the room was air conditioned or not. If not think how much the humidity increased as the crowd literally sweated that run!
In some ways his record is a bit artificial, very few people have or have had an opportunity to challenge the record over and over in exhibitions. It is a great record and that and his other achievements will rightfully forever make Mr. Mosconi a legend. Nobody forgets the Babe because his record has been broken. However, had Willie's record been under constant attack for all these years like Babe Ruth's was I doubt it would have stood. One example, Oliver Ortman is a machine. With better conditioning, better training, better equipment, could Willie Mosconi's record have stood had Ortman shot exhibitions hundreds of times a year for twenty years and taken a shot at the record any time he wanted to? Maybe so, maybe no. We will never know about Ortman and other great players because they have lacked the same opportunities Mr. Mosconi had.
An odd thought, someone who was a strong shooter that got sidetracked, Mike Massey might well have been able to give the record a serious try had he focused on 14.1.
Hu
We can try but can't really duplicate the conditions Mosconi set the record under. I don't know if the room was air conditioned or not. If not think how much the humidity increased as the crowd literally sweated that run!
In some ways his record is a bit artificial, very few people have or have had an opportunity to challenge the record over and over in exhibitions. It is a great record and that and his other achievements will rightfully forever make Mr. Mosconi a legend. Nobody forgets the Babe because his record has been broken. However, had Willie's record been under constant attack for all these years like Babe Ruth's was I doubt it would have stood. One example, Oliver Ortman is a machine. With better conditioning, better training, better equipment, could Willie Mosconi's record have stood had Ortman shot exhibitions hundreds of times a year for twenty years and taken a shot at the record any time he wanted to? Maybe so, maybe no. We will never know about Ortman and other great players because they have lacked the same opportunities Mr. Mosconi had.
An odd thought, someone who was a strong shooter that got sidetracked, Mike Massey might well have been able to give the record a serious try had he focused on 14.1.
Hu
I'd heard that too . . .
His run was on an 8 1/2 foot "oversize" tournament table - a Brunswick Sport King. (see pics) The newer pic is mine. I agree with Jay . . . 500+ balls in straight pool. That would waste most anyone both physically and mentally.
Saw Willie do exhibitions when I was real young . . . the thing that fascinated me was his steel eyed concentration - he OWNED that table when he was on it. He was Ultra consistent . . . no looking at angles and such forever . . . he had the map before the first shot and it was onto the execution phase. I feel very fortunate to have seen him play live - he was gifted and a true gentleman. Pool's greatest ambassador ever (in my opinion).
His run was on an 8 1/2 foot "oversize" tournament table - a Brunswick Sport King. (see pics) The newer pic is mine. I agree with Jay . . . 500+ balls in straight pool. That would waste most anyone both physically and mentally.
Saw Willie do exhibitions when I was real young . . . the thing that fascinated me was his steel eyed concentration - he OWNED that table when he was on it. He was Ultra consistent . . . no looking at angles and such forever . . . he had the map before the first shot and it was onto the execution phase. I feel very fortunate to have seen him play live - he was gifted and a true gentleman. Pool's greatest ambassador ever (in my opinion).
Attachments
I'm not going to comment on Willies record. It is what it is.
What I am going to say is that in the last 50 years or so I have seen most,not all, of the great straight pool players ever. And while many of the old timers and present day players have had many huge runs nobody and I mean nobody ever ran the balls as good as Mosconi. His game when he was on was a work of art.The best way to describe his pattern play would be that he was on a differant level. And I played Willie on one of his exhibition stops. And i use the word play very lightly,it was more that i was his rack boy and at that I did a very good job.
What I am going to say is that in the last 50 years or so I have seen most,not all, of the great straight pool players ever. And while many of the old timers and present day players have had many huge runs nobody and I mean nobody ever ran the balls as good as Mosconi. His game when he was on was a work of art.The best way to describe his pattern play would be that he was on a differant level. And I played Willie on one of his exhibition stops. And i use the word play very lightly,it was more that i was his rack boy and at that I did a very good job.
