What is so special about Cognoscenti cues?

[Rtoron]

Cognoscenti cues are no nonsense cues that are very playable. They are well constructed and the workmanship is as good as anybody out there. Years ago I owned a Cognoscenti and I asked Joe Gold if he would sell me a lathe pin. He sent me a lathe pin and did not even charge me for the pin. I believe Joe Gold would stand behind his product 100% if one of his cues developed a problem. That is something that is worth money. Joe Gold deserves to get good money for his cues because he has a proven track record of excellence. Very few cuemakers have sold the amount of cues that Joe Gold has sold.

 

[saint1]

While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

Now thats a man that know's what he's taking about! Well stated!

 

[Shane Jackson]

Cog or SW?

If you were going to go about finding a plain jane playing cue, for player purpose which would you pick and why?

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

If you were going to go about finding a plain jane playing cue, for player purpose which would you pick and why?

One of the best plain jane cues I have had was an older ebony Cognoscenti. The shaft taper, weight and balance was great, real solid overall. One of only a few cues I wish I would have kept. I had a few SW plain janes also, nice cues but I preferred that specific Cognoscenti over the ones I had.

 

[SCCues]

I spent the better part of 20 years living in Japan and working in the billiard supplies industry, and Cogs (their popularity and pricing), as well as a few other well known makers in my opinion, are a direct result of the Japanese market influence, and most of all Lucky and his dealings with these select makers. I'm not familiar with the deal he had with Joe of Cog, but I do know of other deals he had with other makers. Most of these deals involved these makers producing cues only for Lucky. In other words, he would tie up a a certain maker into an agreement where anything and everything that came out of the guys shop went to Lucky only. So, for a few select makes of higher end cues, there was a point in time where the only way to get one brand new, was to get one from Lucky, and at whatever price he decided to tag it with.
I remember seeing Cogs at his shop with a price tag of $20K. And, they were selling!
Now as far as playability, Cogs were a very popular cue in the mid 90's, and basically that popularity came as a direct result of the way Lucky marketed his stuff. The Japanese are a very passive consumer, and there is this mentality in Japan where the more expensive an item is, the more superior it is. Obviously that way of thinking has drastically changed as a result of the depression, but in general the Japanese way is still there. I've seen it with musical instruments, rice, produce, high end cues, cars, and even pets!
In the 90's, if you walked into any given pool room, it wasn't unusual to see 5-6 "B" players playing with $5k Ginas. And the reason was most likely because the particular house pro in that room played with a Gina. Move down to the next pool room, and the whole room is filled with SW, because the house pro plays with one.
Back to Cogs. Most every Japanese player I've ever met that owned a Cog have had the shafts turned down in order to make them more playable. I've played with a brand new one with stock shafts, and I found it to resemble the playability of a log. However, when turned down or tapered to a more favorable taper, they can be 'tweaked' to play as well as any other great player out there. The materials used seem to be very high quality, including the shaftwoods, thus allowing for some shaft tweaking. But right out of the box...............in my opinion...............not much of a player.
Opinion only folks.
dave

This is an excellent post and it makes a lot of sense. I owned a fancy Cog and the original shafts were over 13mm and unplayable at that size for me. I couldn't agree with you more that re-tapering the shafts would make the cue play much better! Your view on the Japanese pool rooms and the cues used in them is interesting.

James

 

[jmurphy]

I used to own this Cog and it hit the balls like a freight train. :thumbup:

My only issue was that I like 59" cues and this was 57"
I liked the hit so much that I traded a AS9 model Black Boar straight across for it.

 

[PDX]

I despise floating CNC points, or CNC points for that matter. Since they add no structural integrity, they are merely inlays, and generally unattractive in all forms.

The PJ's are simple and easy on the eyes.


As Frank Lloyd Wright said "Less is only more where more is no good".

Maybe soon cues will be described as hand "programmed" made.

 

[Black-Balled]

Cogs do nothing for me, but do know they are highly regarded by many.

Some hack they call 'the Freezer' likes 'em.

And the question of proce/ value...it is like anythiong else: They are priced at an amount that the market will bear.

Too low and customers will snap them up until the secondary market reaches the appropriate oprice level.
Too high and there won't be any sold, until prices reach the appropriate oprice level.

 

[jhanso18]

"Nothing is overpriced, that some one will pay for" comes to mind.

I really only see paying for something like a cog as paying for fine art. It might be an investment, or something you keep forever. I don't care for cog's or MOST CNC inlaid cues period, but to each his own.


Personally, I think if the cue plays exactly the way you want it to, it's hard to put a price on it. The best cue I ever hit is a $400 plain jane, and the kid won't sell it to me for $1k.

best,

Justin

 

[Chicagoplayer]

Please Gentlemen-

I have never made an insult.

I just related that I have never seen anything that wasnt CNC on a Cog cue. I feel exactly the same on the Siegal cues. (Dont want to open a second can of worms).

I feel the same way about new Schon verses old Schon cues. I prefer the older ones with sharp points.

I have "hit" several different cues, and I dont have to play with them for years know if I like them or not.

I still stand by my original post, I do not think Cog cues are "special". While some may think silver stitch rings are significant, I do not. Yes, the pin Joey uses is different from everybody else (I agree he was the first to use it), but IMO, I dont think that is significant as the contribution to cuemaking as Kersenbrock, or several other cuemakers.

These are my opinions, you can have yours, these are mine. When asked, I will share my opinion.

Ken

_______________________________________________________________

Cue building and the play of cues are highly subjective-
And I am a friend and personal admirer of over 50 custom cue makers.
I will mention this fact. Joey's cue, pool, gun and motorcycle knowledge is expert.
He is also the first cuebuilder to employ gunsmithing techniques to cuebuilding.
I have been to Joe's shop, recently in fact.
Very few cue builders use UV for example.
Some swear by this-n-that.
My point is,
I know Joe, I've watched him work,
I like the man and I like his cues.
CP

 

[Chicagoplayer]

Well Said!

:thumbup:

Hi,

Just for the record, I grew up with Joey and it has been my experience that Joe is one of the most talented people I have ever met. When he starts something and puts his mind to it he excels to a top level of achievement.

Example: When he was a teenager he bought a basket case Harley motorcycle and built it into a custom bike. The first bike he built made the cover of Chopper magazine. Joey is a master painter and this was his roots.

When he got into cue making I knew he would reach an elite level. Joe is not a genius, but he is one of the most anal perfectionists I have ever met.

Like Cogs or not the mans work and contributions speak for themselves.

People don't pay $ 7500.00 for cues that are not in demand. Even in this bad market Joe's cues bring big dollars.

Rick G.

________________________________________
very nice!:thumbup:

 

[Chicagoplayer]

He has a price list!

I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

_______________________________

He has a price list for his cues.

 

[greyghost]

believe joey gold was the first to use the G-10 pin on a cue.....great pin lots of torque down

 

[Icon of Sin]

What's so special about <insert cuemake'rs name here>

 

[Black-Balled]

While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

And Ken speaks for me too...

 

[Black-Balled]

I walked in on a coworker just after he got off the phone with his girlfriend, and he was pissed. Me being another woman who had the very bad luck of walking in right then, he let loose:

"How come you women need to break a man for jewelry? Is it the cost of the diamonds that makes you think you've got him now? The pain of the price is proof of his attachment to you?!? What is UP with women and jewelry- just tell me the truth!"

There was a pause and I realized he really wanted an answer.

I shrugged and told him the truth: "It's shiny."

So I never got to hit with a Cog, but I do want one- badly, in fact. Why? It's pretty, and the rings are so shiny.

Honest.

They are all lovely though.

wimmins? cues?
Yes.

 

[blucollar]

U couldn't be more correct about the Asian markets influence being largely responsible for driving the price of cogs up. The same for Southwest, ...a perfect example of this would be just go to Roy malotts indyq.com site. Half the Southwest section is written in Asian. No coincidence there.

 

[sebas]

Cognoscenti

Joey's cue building knowledge is top notch as is his knowledge of the game. He chooses to build his cues the way he does because he believes in his method and believes in the soundness of every single cue he send out. How many of you have a Cog butt or shaft that has warped? I have had plenty of his cues and they are very consistent. Something that is hard to find in a custom cue. He designs and/or builds many of his own machines. There are many cuemakers out there today that use machinery Joey has designed or built. Any cue is only worth what someone will pay for it. I have had/hit with all of the "great" ones and joey's cues hit very nice and on par with any of them. The problem with them is they are too darn short:grin:.

 

[Quesports]

Joey's cue building knowledge is top notch as is his knowledge of the game. He chooses to build his cues the way he does because he believes in his method and believes in the soundness of every single cue he send out. How many of you have a Cog butt or shaft that has warped? I have had plenty of his cues and they are very consistent. Something that is hard to find in a custom cue. He designs and/or builds many of his own machines. There are many cuemakers out there today that use machinery Joey has designed or built. Any cue is only worth what someone will pay for it. I have had/hit with all of the "great" ones and joey's cues hit very nice and on par with any of them. The problem with them is they are too darn short:grin:.

Not mine... It's just right!

 

[Cdryden]

Ken...The fact that you "diss" CNC just shows that you know nothing about cue construction. You're making judgement calls on something you just personally don't like (which is an opinion...and to which you're entitled). That said, CNC cues don't PLAY any different than sharp point cues. The playability (as JB mentioned), is extremely subjective from person to person, and is based on how the cue is constructed...not how the points are "installed" in the cue. For your information, regardless of whether points are CNC or 'hand-cut', they still have to be HAND-INLAID...which if you had ever been to Joe's shop, you'd understand how difficult it is to put some of the elaborate scrollwork points is (I own the first split Shiseido point cue, and it is one of my prized possessions). I'm in the camp (like several other knowledgeable cue owners here) that Joe's cues play like nothing else, and I've owned dozens of cues, including Balabushka, Southwest, old Gina, JW, and Szamboti (among many others). The Cog has always been my favorite...and it's the "hit" that, for me, makes it favored to me. Forget about the dazzling designs that Joe has come up (and some others have tried to copy). Opinions are like a-holes...every has one, and many of them stink (but we're all entitled to our own).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Forgive me for getting a little of track but Scott makes a good point about CNC work. I've always found it funny that in the cue world some people see the CNC as a big evil. As a person who worked as a Machinist for 11 years and a tool and die maker for another 5 I can tell you this, a CNC lathe or mill is just a means to be more efficient and accurate.
I think a lot of people hear the term CNC and think mass produced which is not always the case. Most of these guys using CNC machines to build their cues are every bit the craftsman as the guys from older generations.

Why wouldn't you want to use the best machines available to produce the best product possible?