JA vs MD push out after the break match.

[watchez]

Part of me wants to do a roll out after the break with the old school two shot roll out rules just to show what it really would look like. I am positive after it was over people would be saying "Well that sucked to watch." You would have a safety battle at the beginning or EVERY rack. Now put those rules on tight pockets. Your potential audience is now people over sixty with OCD and self masochistic tendencies. That will really bring those new viewers to the game.

You should sell your airtime to CJ and JA. Let them put up the $5,000 to pay the players and then they can get a % of what the PPV does. (damn it, I just fell into the trap like everyone else trying to tell you what to do)

A baseball purist wants to go see a game that is 2-1 with 14 managerial moves to win the game. A baseball fans wants to see a game that is 9-7 with a 5 run 8th inning.

 

[jhanso18]

For the record TAR 31 did about 20% better than TAR 30 PPV wise. I chalk that up to two reasons. One is Facebook and the other is going back to standard pockets so the guys can actually play pool like they do at every other pro event.

I would also wager that a little "bad blood" and smack talking between SVB and MD helped too. I think that showing that these guys aren't just there on a free role, and that they BOTH want to win very badly definitely drew me in further and probably had a draw affect on some people that wouldn't have bought otherwise.


In the future if you could show more jawing back and forth between the two players involved that would be great. Kind of reminds me of how the show two fighters talking smack about how bad they're going to beat each other before a fight.

Also maybe put on a match with the push out, rules as an under card? I don't know that I can watch that for 3 days. I know there was talk of an under card on Thurdays possibly anyways.

Thanks for all you do, and for putting on a top notch quality product Justin!

thanks,

Justin

 

[TATE]

For the record TAR 31 did about 20% better than TAR 30 PPV wise. I chalk that up to two reasons. One is Facebook and the other is going back to standard pockets so the guys can actually play pool like they do at every other pro event.

It did well because it was a showdown not a rematch and both players have decent North American followings.

Plus I think TAR is coming into it's own with a decent following. In my own business I have found that for just sheer statistical reasons, a promotion can fluctuate by plus10% or minus 10% participation for no good reason (a 20% spread). I use that information as a way of limiting my risk and plan for it. So if you anticipate 500 viewers say, for no good reason that number can be 450 or 550 - budget on the 450. You will not lose on the disappointing number and clean up on the big number.

FYI I also believe it's important to have a bread and butter income. These big events should not pay your bills, they should be your bank.

Use this publicity, your folowing and set-up to create a steady stream of income. If I were you I would have a cheap match or two, say something like this just to toss out, a double header every Friday night 8 pm. 2-3 hours of action, $10 PPV, whoever is in town. Like boxing for example. You know I would watch.

Also, Justin, remember this - the more viewers you draw the larger the advertising potential. Is there any way your viewers could legally bet on the matches?

 

[bfdlad]

WOW, I had to get some things done yesterday afternoon and was not on here and didn't get to speak with JA. I will today and let him in on this thread and what MD has said. He may have even seen it I know he has been cvoming on here every now and then to see whats going on. I will be back on here if JA has anything more to say on it.

 

[Socopool79]

How about a back pocket 10 ball game? Get the best of both shooting and strategy.

 

[oldzilla]

Manoman, 11pages and nobody mentioned bigfoot !

10x5 and tight pockets seems to be the newest best challenge for the elite players.

I actually like the magic rack, since it gives the perfect rack !

But the game needs to be 10-ball. 9-ball rack just too easy to bust.

I do like express rules and not taking out two-way shots.

If need be limit the area from where they can break from.

I remember all the 2foul games back in the day.

They became boring at times, believe me.

The pushout was used to death and die it did.

If need be limit the push-out's to an equal number for each to use at his own time.

 

[nb92]

Speaking for me personally I hate seeing guys bunt balls around. I like seeing top guys run out and be dynamic when playing rotation games. Anyone who like the moving aspect can play or watch one pocket. Thats the best game for that type of thing anyway.

Part of me wants to do a roll out after the break with the old school two shot roll out rules just to show what it really would look like. I am positive after it was over people would be saying "Well that sucked to watch." You would have a safety battle at the beginning or EVERY rack. Now put those rules on tight pockets. Your potential audience is now people over sixty with OCD and self masochistic tendencies. That will really bring those new viewers to the game.

Players need to understand and I mean really get the fact that when people are paying to watch you play a game it is not about what the players think makes it most even for them it is about what entertains the people paying the bills. Thats the fans by the way.

I make my living selling pro pool to people. I do more events than anyone else in the country. People who pay to watch to pro pool like watching pro's put balls in the pockets not kick them around and play hide and seek. This isnt an opinion. This is fact based off of experience.

For the record TAR 31 did about 20% better than TAR 30 PPV wise. I chalk that up to two reasons. One is Facebook and the other is going back to standard pockets so the guys can actually play pool like they do at every other pro event.

Cool... so the PPV audience is under 30 with ADD... or if you like to bet... I can appreciate that.... Maybe before/after the US Open 10-ball TAR will be able to get Dennis or Busty back in the pit...

 

[thebighurt]

So I was chatting a little with Archer on the phone about the Shane Vs Mike TAR match. JA said he would love to play Mike even for as much as he wanted at either 9-Ball or 10-Ball BUT the only rule was push out after the break. I was just kinda wondering about how that would change the game. If it would be a good game, would it separate the men from the boys so to speak and who would win.
So what do you guys think of that format? I guess it would give everyone a chance at the table.

It is by far the best way to play.. in that format you will find out who PLAYS better unlike now it is just who breaks and **** racks the rack better.. Dont get me wrong Mike Dechaine isn't beating Shane in any format

 

[JCIN]

Cool... so the PPV audience is under 30 with ADD...

I can only hope. Take a look around any pro tournament at the people watching in the crowd. Derby for example. Pro pool has a very serious demographic problem.

 

[thebighurt]

Speaking for me personally I hate seeing guys bunt balls around. I like seeing top guys run out and be dynamic when playing rotation games. Anyone who like the moving aspect can play or watch one pocket. Thats the best game for that type of thing anyway.

Part of me wants to do a roll out after the break with the old school two shot roll out rules just to show what it really would look like. I am positive after it was over people would be saying "Well that sucked to watch." You would have a safety battle at the beginning or EVERY rack. Now put those rules on tight pockets. Your potential audience is now people over sixty with OCD and self masochistic tendencies. That will really bring those new viewers to the game.

Players need to understand and I mean really get the fact that when people are paying to watch you play a game it is not about what the players think makes it most even for them it is about what entertains the people paying the bills. Thats the fans by the way.

I make my living selling pro pool to people. I do more events than anyone else in the country. People who pay to watch to pro pool like watching pro's put balls in the pockets not kick them around and play hide and seek. This isnt an opinion. This is fact based off of experience.

For the record TAR 31 did about 20% better than TAR 30 PPV wise. I chalk that up to two reasons. One is Facebook and the other is going back to standard pockets so the guys can actually play pool like they do at every other pro event.

Justin I usually agree with most things you say.. but I think you are wrong this time. people want to see excitement and great shot making, they do not want to see guys tap in the same balls into the same pockets every game. Where is the proof? Because texas Express rules have done jack shit for television viewing in this country. Americans wants excitement in their sports. The pushout rules GUARANTEED more hard shots would be attempted which equals more excitement... The bottom line is this your baby and your business and you run it how you want to... A hint for the future though if you would be little more receptive to critique or suggestions it might actually help you out in the long run..
P.S. before some genius chimes in how pool viewing was jack shit in this country with the push out rules, we are living in a whole different world now.. There are 5000 frigging television stations, videos, live streams etc.. now. It might actually be worth giving the push out rules a try.. You dont have to worry about losing anything on the first one you do because most people will pay to watch just to see what the push out rules are all about. Then after that match you ask the fans which they would prefer.. You really don't have nothing to lose because its not like you would be signing a contract to do 10 matches with push out rules. Try it once and see what happens... Actually the way johnny Archer proposes(a mandatory push out after the break) would b the best way to go for excitement and shot making

 

[mikeyfrost]

Well I'm part of the PPV audience and I get my buddy to buy my TAR matches so I watch them all one way or another.

I can tell you this is the main difference. If I want to bet on the match I want the table as hard or near impossible as it can be if I think I got the better end of it. Not fun at all to watch though, usually I keep it on and do other stuff around the house or drink and not really watch too tight until the end.

With the standard table. It's much harder to bet on right. It's much more fun to watch. Me and Put_upor_shut_up were going out for all star weekend and we watched SVB finish torturing Mike before we hit the city of Houston. Why cause SVB is nasty on that table. I think other top players will perform similarly.

Tight table = more gambling less entertaining

Standard table = less gambling more entertaining.

Pick your poison. I don't want to watch safety play for free....ever!

 

[Luxury]

Speaking for me personally I hate seeing guys bunt balls around. I like seeing top guys run out and be dynamic when playing rotation games. Anyone who like the moving aspect can play or watch one pocket. Thats the best game for that type of thing anyway.

Part of me wants to do a roll out after the break with the old school two shot roll out rules just to show what it really would look like. I am positive after it was over people would be saying "Well that sucked to watch." You would have a safety battle at the beginning or EVERY rack. Now put those rules on tight pockets. Your potential audience is now people over sixty with OCD and self masochistic tendencies. That will really bring those new viewers to the game.

Players need to understand and I mean really get the fact that when people are paying to watch you play a game it is not about what the players think makes it most even for them it is about what entertains the people paying the bills. Thats the fans by the way.

I make my living selling pro pool to people. I do more events than anyone else in the country. People who pay to watch to pro pool like watching pro's put balls in the pockets not kick them around and play hide and seek. This isnt an opinion. This is fact based off of experience.

For the record TAR 31 did about 20% better than TAR 30 PPV wise. I chalk that up to two reasons. One is Facebook and the other is going back to standard pockets so the guys can actually play pool like they do at every other pro event.

LOVE this post.

 

[JCIN]

It did well because it was a showdown not a rematch and both players have decent North American followings.

Plus I think TAR is coming into it's own with a decent following. In my own business I have found that for just sheer statistical reasons, a promotion can fluctuate by plus10% or minus 10% participation for no good reason (a 20% spread). I use that information as a way of limiting my risk and plan for it. So if you anticipate 500 viewers say, for no good reason that number can be 450 or 550 - budget on the 450. You will not lose on the disappointing number and clean up on the big number.

FYI I also believe it's important to have a bread and butter income. These big events should not pay your bills, they should be your bank.

Use this publicity, your folowing and set-up to create a steady stream of income. If I were you I would have a cheap match or two, say something like this just to toss out, a double header every Friday night 8 pm. 2-3 hours of action, $10 PPV, whoever is in town. Like boxing for example. You know I would watch.

Also, Justin, remember this - the more viewers you draw the larger the advertising potential. Is there any way your viewers could legally bet on the matches?

TAR 30 wasnt a rematch and featured arguably the most successful tournament player in the world. It also had about two weeks more notice. I suspect if I asked before the matches which would draw better Appleton or Dechaine the odds would of favored Darren heavily.

$10 short matches would just dilute the product IMO. I have no interest in doing matches just do them. At a $10 price point by the time I pay crew, players, commentators and bandwidth its just not worth it. The answer for TAR is a VOD site that allows us to sell our back catalog at a fair price that has a decent profit margin. Much easier said than done though.

I have no idea what would be involved in getting matches listed on a betting service. Last I heard of it the English betting houses won't fool with anything based in the US.

 

[Socopool79]

What would be the best game for the players and the biggest draw for the spectators? Furthermore if players are getting an appearance fee should they care what game they are playing? Are they getting an appearance fee?

 

[thebighurt]

No, I'd love to compete again playing Roll Out. It's like anything else, the beauty is in the complexity of things. I have an arsenal that I don't ever get to use that makes the game so much more fun for me and players like Johnny, Rodney, Sigel, Earl, etc.

Imagine a concert pianist that could only use 30% of the keys....imagine an artist that could only use 30% of their colors.

This is how we feel about the "new" style of 9 Ball, it's just maybe 30% of what it could be if they just played the right rules. There's nothing lucky or easy about 9 Ball, it's evolved into a carnival game to speed up tournaments.

The players never had a say so in the rules changing, faster cloth, and jump sticks sneaking into the game. For the most part the players just kept quiet, often times being paid to endorse these products until the game became what it is today.

The Game is not very happy, and ohhhhhh, if it could only speak. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ you are right on the money with everything you have said. You were the best american player at one time and its not like you are in your prime right now and just trying to convince people of something that might give you an edge. You are right the game is going to nowhere right now. Whats in place isn't working.(and ****ing bonus ball isn't the answer either) jump sticks are another joke.. it takes a whole lot of talent to hit a ball with a sledge hammer and make it hop NOT!!! the jump stick almost took kicking(a real art) out of the game. I find it unbelievable that someone who played at your level and with your experience is having such a hard time getting through to some of these people.

 

[Black-Balled]

The answere to any pool related question is always

 

[JCIN]

Justin I usually agree with most things you say.. but I think you are wrong this time. people want to see excitement and great shot making, they do not want to see guys tap in the same balls into the same pockets every game. Where is the proof? Because texas Express rules have done jack shit for television viewing in this country. Americans wants excitement in their sports. The pushout rules GUARANTEED more hard shots would be attempted which equals more excitement... The bottom line is this your baby and your business and you run it how you want to... A hint for the future though if you would be little more receptive to critique or suggestions it might actually help you out in the long run..
P.S. before some genius chimes in how pool viewing was jack shit in this country with the push out rules, we are living in a whole different world now.. There are 5000 frigging television stations, videos, live streams etc.. now. It might actually be worth giving the push out rules a try.. You dont have to worry about losing anything on the first one you do because most people will pay to watch just to see what the push out rules are all about. Then after that match you ask the fans which they would prefer.. You really don't have nothing to lose because its not like you would be signing a contract to do 10 matches with push out rules. Try it once and see what happens... Actually the way johnny Archer proposes(a mandatory push out after the break) would b the best way to go for excitement and shot making

I have been down the "Try it and see what happens" road many many times over the years. I'll just wait for someone else to take this particular road first.

All push out rules guarantee is longer games and no possibility of packages. I have never seen elite players play this way and would be interested to see it just because I think it would confirm my opinion that it would be boring. What I'm not willing to do is risk my time and money to prove that it sucks.

 

[Socopool79]

Why not play rotation? Kicking, safeties, breaking up clusters, position off balls, and good ole fashioned running out. Shouldn't that be the game they are playing?

 

[JCIN]

The answere to any pool related question is always

This post is whats wrong with pool.

 

[BelleBelle]

How about make the pockets 4 inches, players have to break one handed than push out after break, oh and your only allowed to run a maximum of three balls than you must push out again. Seriously like Justin said if I wanted to watch one pocket that's what I would do. Shane doing what he does with the ten ball rack and break is amazing not a circus act. I suggest other pros work on their break or don't play Shane 10 ball. I'm not saying he can't be beat he can and has. If it was all about the break on a pro cut diamond than Donny Mills should never lose! He breaks great and plays awesome