Pro Pool players courting disaster

[Fatboy]

Thanks for the kind words about my pictures. I love my pool pictures. I have only begun to touch the surface on Facebook.

When I hook up my old computer out in the garage, I have about a thousand more to go through. The best is yet to come!

those pics and Marys pics are the National Archive of pool. PLEASE back them up some how some way. Sadly each year they will become all we have. I dont do FB, never will, not for me. but the pics are important. thanks so much for them.


Poker tip #2 for Keith, today shove it all in with rags one time, i got a good feeling about it, just today.

 

[Fatboy]

I'm still standing by my long-held belief:

The game can improve in audience and popularity if local newspapers could be convinced to allocate a little section to cue sports.

Even a weekly Saturday issue of tournament results, league standings, and latest news could be helpful - sponsored by the local pool halls and league operators.

Could someone in a a small city (for example), talk with the local newspaper sports editor and present the idea?

It shouldn't be hard to include some ad buys in a special deal to try it out for six months and measure the results.

newspapers are dying and have limited distribution nowadays, however you idea is solid if you could do what your saying online with the main stream media, not niche sites like AZB, before the internet your were spot on, the idea is right just the delivery now has to be electronic not paper. that's all.

now how to do that? i can get a press release picked up by AP or Reuters. I'll ask Nathan/Larry if they would like that for Bonus Ball when the time is right. A friend just did it and 19,000 news sites, papers, and TV channels picked up his release of a new video game company.

 

[Scott Lee]

PoolRookie...I don't think you'll have to worry about that...since "sponsorship" for the giant majority of pro players is limited to 'here's a cue to play with'! As far as American pros, you can likely count on one hand the pro players that get any kind of significant $$$ sponsorship. Sad...but true!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Just a question, How about the players that are involved with BB, will they lose their current sponsorships for not traveling around playing in the Pro events using their sponsors equipment and promoting it??? Tied up in a studio not promoting products how can sponsors pay for that???

 

[cajunfats]

One Overlooked Aspect of Professional Players

This has been a lively thread, to say the least. Lots of interesting points. In a segue from the Bonus Ball and Tunica discussion, much of this would be resolved by having the one thing that other professional sports utilize for their players. Bonafide sports agents to represent the players.

These agents are the marketing and responsibility arm of the players and their interests. The agents are usually attorneys that specialize in sports management. It is the agent that approaches corporate sponsors to introduce their client to the product. The agent also prepares the player for presenting themselves as a marketable entity.

If you look at players like Jeanette Lee or Ewa Mataya, they may be or have been, represented by a management company. Actors use the same concepts to market themselves. The percentage of pay for these services is well worth the price.

The trouble with pool players is being able to let their ego drop for the sake of success. They don't mind being whored by a stakehorse for gambling, but wouldn't dream of letting a nimrod tell them how to act in front of a Pepsi Cola Board Meeting.

While working with the BCA back during the early to mid 90's, I had an opportunity to talk with people at the NFL Players Association, mostly about licensing product and authorizations for name uses in promotions. Contrary to popular belief, Patrick Willis doesn't just show up for a charity event for football, it is all carefully choreographed. I helped with a charity event for Danny Glover at Hollywood Billiards back in 1999 and had an A List of actors who showed up, all with their Personal Assistants in tow. FWIW, Jamie Foxx can play a little pool if there is a Cicero Murphy movie in the works.

I believe that it is essential for any progress to be made as a viable sports entity, the Professional Players must build a complete foundation that doesn't have them running all aspects of their organization. Delegation of Authority is a big part of successful leadership. It is also necessary to keep the entire picture of events, tournaments, etc. in balance.

 

[jimmyg]

This has been a lively thread, to say the least. Lots of interesting points. In a segue from the Bonus Ball and Tunica discussion, much of this would be resolved by having the one thing that other professional sports utilize for their players. Bonafide sports agents to represent the players.

These agents are the marketing and responsibility arm of the players and their interests. The agents are usually attorneys that specialize in sports management. It is the agent that approaches corporate sponsors to introduce their client to the product. The agent also prepares the player for presenting themselves as a marketable entity.

If you look at players like Jeanette Lee or Ewa Mataya, they may be or have been, represented by a management company. Actors use the same concepts to market themselves. The percentage of pay for these services is well worth the price.

The trouble with pool players is being able to let their ego drop for the sake of success. They don't mind being whored by a stakehorse for gambling, but wouldn't dream of letting a nimrod tell them how to act in front of a Pepsi Cola Board Meeting.

While working with the BCA back during the early to mid 90's, I had an opportunity to talk with people at the NFL Players Association, mostly about licensing product and authorizations for name uses in promotions. Contrary to popular belief, Patrick Willis doesn't just show up for a charity event for football, it is all carefully choreographed. I helped with a charity event for Danny Glover at Hollywood Billiards back in 1999 and had an A List of actors who showed up, all with their Personal Assistants in tow. FWIW, Jamie Foxx can play a little pool if there is a Cicero Murphy movie in the works.

I believe that it is essential for any progress to be made as a viable sports entity, the Professional Players must build a complete foundation that doesn't have them running all aspects of their organization. Delegation of Authority is a big part of successful leadership. It is also necessary to keep the entire picture of events, tournaments, etc. in balance.

I understand what you are saying, but, unfortunately, there aren't many qualified agents with valuable "connections" who are willing to accept clients in the $25,000.00 to $100,000.00 annual income range, especially one's with "special needs".

A real players union run by qualified, non-playing, professionals would be a great first step.

J

 

[one stroke]

Yeah, it was a bummer for Keith. He hadn't picked up a cuestick in almost 5 years, and the first time he ventures out to compete, this is what he had to spot his opponent. :frown:

It was a handicapped tournament. Many regional tours today do that -- that is, even if they allow the pros to compete. Some regional tours ban pro players altogether.

This is why I think the pro players need to do what they gotta do make a living, and if this means going to Vegas for BB, good for them! I hope they enjoy the income and live well instead of sleeping on floors in hotel rooms, sleeping in a car all night, consume blood-mud food at fast-food restaurants, shopping at thrift shops for clothing. We readers on this forum and fans aren't paying them. We are paying industry members by supporting industry members, but have you ever taken a look at how the BCA, the organization for industry members, treats professional pool players in America? The industry members enjoy T-bone steak, and when they're done, they grow a little bone out for all the pro players to nibble on, a little bone with not much meat on it, I might add. :angry:

None of the tours that play in the DC area are handicapped. Action tour and planet pool. Neither is the Mezz or joss NE There are also once a month 32 player open events and open smaller turnys. .
The problem is there is not enough turnys to carry all these pros or near pro players
Another problem is without the armatures in these events they can't survive and amateur pool is what's carrying pool I would also venture to say that's also what's killing it. The APA alone has 265k players now add TAP and BCA and your somewhere around a half million just in league play.
They offer so many things to players that paying to watch pool is something few off them do , they already get their fill thru their leagues and their own added tour events if they need more they throw their hat into the regional tours

What pro pool needs is to define who the pros are and have a limited number like the PGA tour and have pro only events with a limited number of open events where outside the tour players can qualify to get in ,
If you don't win a certain amount of money you lose pro status , this way the true pro players can make a decent living


1

 

[dardusm]

It's been an interesting debate to say the least. Is BB ultimately good for the players? Only time will tell. Larry Chiborak was on the show Pool Time yesterday. If you didn't catch it live, below is the link to the show. Click the May 26th link. Larry's interview begins around the 23 minute mark or so.

http://www.dsmithpool.com/PoolTime.aspx

We asked questions about the history, updates, and so on. We also brought up the schedule and his thoughts about it. I think at all of the promoters of the game are also passionate fans. There isn't a history of making money running tournaments or pro leagues. They do it for the love of the game first and then try to figure out a way to earn money. I hope the industry can find a way to work together for the game/sport.

Darryl

 

[bfdlad]

Thanks Chris



I can personally say i know how much work has been put into this, and i can guarantee you ain't seen anything like this studio and especially the graphics Nathan has done. It is incredible and IMO WILL be the reason why major TV companies will take this product, it is a top class job done by Nathan and his crew to give pool a chance of being on TV and successful.

Just give it a chance and see what he has done, he alone deserves it too succeed for the amount of work he has done. He has brought pool into the 21st century, this thing look amazing, lets hope people support it now and keep it there.

In 4 days you will all see, and even the knockers will be impressed, even if they don't admit it.

Great job Nathan, now get some rest before you become ill from lack of sleep.

Lee, I personally know that Nathan's passion and talent has and will continue to amaze me and others. People who actually know of dome of his work and now with all kinds of tech stuff I am positive that the production aspect of things will be fantastic. However, I don't think that the production end of Bonus Balkl is where people have issues. For the most part we know thats gonna be good.

Mybe an allstate commercial "Happier that Nathan is a studio filled with geeky techy stuff"

 

[Luxury]

The bonus ball threads have set all records where a poster makes an assumption to make bonus ball look bad then it is explained how they are wrong without the assumptive poster ever acknowledging how wrong they were.

This has been very amusing to me. There are many big picture things where no one can say for sure who was right but I'm talking about tons of details that were cut and dry.

 

[cajunfats]

Uh Huh!!

I understand what you are saying, but, unfortunately, there aren't many qualified agents with valuable "connections" who are willing to accept clients in the $25,000.00 to $100,000.00 annual income range, especially one's with "special needs".

A real players union run by qualified, non-playing, professionals would be a great first step.

J

I agree. Why would any self respecting sports attorney go slumming for pool players? The ability to move their income earning potential won't happen immediately. Haha,lmao, "special needs" is a great analogy. Wanted to rep you for that but mods have you receiving too much green lately!!

The players union is a requirement for the rights of arbitration and that representation has an overall benefit for the players.

This was part of a scenario I posted a while back about how team ownership becomes a catalyst for development. But then, I probably got long winded and lapsed into a coma before I could finish it.

cajunfats

 

[CJ Wiley]

a "Cannibalistic Format" - The Big Fish eat the Small Fish

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley
100% if the job was something they had a passion for, and Bonus Ball may be that job.

Look at the alternative: You can go to another "job" called a Pro Pool Tournament where they expect you to PAY to work, with another 100 or so "workers" of the same trade. Then, they promise if you do better than 75% of the other "workers" they will give you some of your money back.

If you do REALLY well they will give you more than your money back. 74% of these "workers" will lose money for working just as hard at preparing in their own way......oh, yes and all the workers have to pay for 100% of their food, travel, room, equipment, powder, wardrobe, etc.

Their only real drive comes from the passion they have for the Game......a Game that would advise them not to undertake such a negative situation. The Game would advice them not to because any consultant would advice a worker not to subject themselves to these type situations. In most states you MUST pay minimum wage, however, in this "Pro Tournament" scenario the Labor Laws do not apply.

People can actually Charge their staff to work without any chance of recovery. Then, if they {the players} find something else that will pay 100% of them (Bonus Ball) they are ridiculed for NOT being loyal to the scenario that makes most of them suffer a severe financial punishment.

We sincerely wish the best for the entire staff of Bonus Ball and every player that's doing what they MUST do to survive. If there's every anything we can do for their cause we will at NO CHARGE.....We've been in this situation on the Road, where we had to win to eat.....where no one was on our side, and would laugh if they thought we were broke or struggling......We have no grudges and understand this is human nature to an extent, the "dark side" of human psych.....we will do whatever's necessary to help if they need a hand. 'The Game is our Teacher'

CJ - 100% hit the nail on the head. Everyone should read this and stop slating the players etc...

Great post and tells it how it is, yet no one seems to understand this. Pool pro's ain't pro's, or they wouldn't pay to play. Do you see snooker players paying or darts players paying to play.

CJ has it 100% spot on!! IMO if the promoters want the best to play, then pay them to play.

You understand Lee and so do most other Pro's NOW, it couldn't go on this way.

Pro Pool is set up in a "Cannibalistic Format" - The Big Fish eat the Small Fish and the small fish have to pay to get eaten. This is ludicrous if you think about it. No one in their right mind would "Pay to Play" - with a 30% of making their expenses back and getting even. How Many Pros Can We Expect To Do This Consistently Until Some of Them Figure it Out???

Without TV there is NO Incentive except "nothing better to do" because without TV there's no chance for sponsorship. Our best players are being offered $500 a month or less to endorce products which is 10% of some of the sponsorship in the 90s.....it's ALL From Lack of Televised Events.....hopefully Bonus Ball can change this asap.

 

[Fatboy]

You understand Lee and so do most other Pro's NOW, it couldn't go on this way.

Pro Pool is set up in a "Cannibalistic Format" - The Big Fish eat the Small Fish and the small fish have to pay to get eaten. This is ludicrous if you think about it. No one in their right mind would "Pay to Play" - with a 30% of making their expenses back and getting even. How Many Pros Can We Expect To Do This Consistently Until Some of Them Figure it Out???

Without TV there is NO Incentive except "nothing better to do" because without TV there's no chance for sponsorship. Our best players are being offered $500 a month or less to endorce products which is 10% of some of the sponsorship in the 90s.....it's ALL From Lack of Televised Events.....hopefully Bonus Ball can change this asap.

i figured that out in Reno with a $100 entry fee on a $10,000 trunment at the Sands-think you won it at least once, i couldnt play good enough to make sense for to keep trying, so i went my own way and took the $100 and put it in action that i did have a chance in. It would have been great to play good enough to know i could break even there or make $$$, but i didnt play good enough. and now days $100 entry $40 nite room and $1/gal gas would be a dream come true for a good player for a shot at $10,000 2 times a year-just there in Reno. that was the numbers in the reno days. actually gas was more like 79cents/gal and the Fitz was $25/nite.

 

[sjm]

CJ - 100% hit the nail on the head. Everyone should read this and stop slating the players etc...

Great post and tells it how it is, yet no one seems to understand this. Pool pro's ain't pro's, or they wouldn't pay to play. Do you see snooker players paying or darts players paying to play.

CJ has it 100% spot on!! IMO if the promoters want the best to play, then pay them to play.

Poker pros pay to play. In fact, to enter all the events at the World Series of Poker may cost over $100,000 in entry fees. It's amazing how often I read on this forum how much pool pros want their sport to be more like poker.

 

[jay helfert]

You understand Lee and so do most other Pro's NOW, it couldn't go on this way.

Pro Pool is set up in a "Cannibalistic Format" - The Big Fish eat the Small Fish and the small fish have to pay to get eaten. This is ludicrous if you think about it. No one in their right mind would "Pay to Play" - with a 30% of making their expenses back and getting even. How Many Pros Can We Expect To Do This Consistently Until Some of Them Figure it Out???

Without TV there is NO Incentive except "nothing better to do" because without TV there's no chance for sponsorship. Our best players are being offered $500 a month or less to endorce products which is 10% of some of the sponsorship in the 90s.....it's ALL From Lack of Televised Events.....hopefully Bonus Ball can change this asap.

CJ, If everybody agreed with you, there would be no Challenger tour in Tennis, no Web.com tour in golf (or the many other minor league tours), and no regional tours in pool. Even on the loftiest of pro tours (PGA, ATP, WTA), there are more losers (money wise) than winners. It's the nature of the beast. If everyone wanted to play it safe, they could stay home and get a job. Why compete at all if it costs you money to go and play? I'm sorry your argument for the benefits of BB just don't hold water in the real world of competitive sports.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Clueless .........

Poker pros pay to play. In fact, to enter all the events at the World Series of Poker may cost over $100,000 in entry fees. It's amazing how often I read on this forum how much pool pros want their sport to be more like poker.

Poker pays millions in prize money. Pool you can't win sh.t . This is going to change !

 

[JCIN]

Poker pros pay to play. In fact, to enter all the events at the World Series of Poker may cost over $100,000 in entry fees. It's amazing how often I read on this forum how much pool pros want their sport to be more like poker.

People who say pool should be more like poker or golf only mean they want the money at the high end of those games. They want nothing to do with what is actually required to attain that level of compensation.

 

[JCIN]

Poker pays millions in prize money. Pool you can't win sh.t . This is going to change !

Poker pays out 10% of the field and the organizer takes money out of the prize fund not adds it.

Would you be willing to play in that kind of pool tournament ?

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Well then, go back to the Cliff thread and get at her Wolf.

Oops, I guess you can't champion that one any longer. Just crickets over there now since you had to back peddle out of there last night.

Really too bad cause I had a 100 for Cliff if you had have won that bet that you foolishly got yourself into. Oh well.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Just woke up, Overslept..

Well then, go back to the Cliff thread and get at her Wolf.

Oops, I guess you can't champion that one any longer. Just crickets over there now since you had to back peddle out of there last night.

Really too bad cause I had a 100 for Cliff if you had have won that bet that you foolishly got yourself into. Oh well.

I have never backpedaled in my life. Some times I let simpleminded people get to me. The fire in me I guess. And sometimes I say things others might not say, That's just me. I think you know what you can do with your 100.... Have a nice day !

 

[jay helfert]

Poker pays millions in prize money. Pool you can't win sh.t . This is going to change !

Almost ALL the poker players (famous and not so famous) are dead broke. In fact they owe large sums of money! When I go to the World Series I always get hit up by guys you have seen play on TV. They are all going for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. One guy wins a million and a thousand other guys blow $10,000 (with backers of course)! Hello, figure out the math. It's a far worse proposition than trying to make money at pool.

In pro pool tournaments, the promoters ADD money to the entry fees. In pro poker tournaments, the promoters typically take out from 10-15% of the entry fee money for their "expenses." The players are paying to play, BIG TIME! In this equation, eventually everyone will go broke, unless they can get fresh money from somewhere. I play at the World Series every year because it's the best deal in poker, only 6-8% of the entry fees are deducted from the purse.