Matlock vs Keith

[Ken_4fun]

With all due respect, Ken, what does playing Keith on his money or somebody else's money have to do with how strong a player one is on a barbox?

It seems like people are nitpicking pool player's strengths on a barbox in recent threads, though I'm not sure for what purpose.

I can get Keith to post in this thread. He's been wanting to post lately on a few threads he's read on AzBilliards, but I have respectfully requested he remain mum on some topics. Keith isn't as familiar with forum culture as I am, and I don't want to see him paint himself in a corner on the black-and-white.

So having devoted hundreds, if not thousands of hours to the Keith McCready Story, I can definitely say Keith bet his own cash quite often. He used to carry big boodles of cabbage, I think they call it, but he was also staked by stakehorses when he was in his prime because he had a reputation of getting that money. Sometimes Keith would stay up all night gambling and show up at a tournament with no sleep. The tournament winner would win $5,000, but Keith would leave the tournament with 20 large from his action exploits. The tournament venues were oftentimes gathering places for players of Keith's ilk. :tongue:

Another thing that was unique about Keith when comparing him to other action players of his era is that Keith could walk into a joint and get action going, no problem. This still holds today. Some players might shoot lights out, but they have the personality of a gnat and can't get action unless it's handed to them.

The late Geese, may he rest in peace, was a GREAT action player, but he had the personality of a pitbull when it came to getting down. Geese would walk into a pool room and yell out, "Does anybody want to play some 9-ball?" and if there was no response, he'd turn to whoever he was with and say, "Okay, let's go. Nothing happening here." He just didn't have that finesse power or the gift of gab that Keith has.

What separates Keith from the rest is that everybody usually enjoyed the show, win or lose, when playing with Keith. Keith can massage, talk smack, and get down in any venue I've been with him at. Unlike Nick Varner and a few other strategic-type players, Keith had a very, very strong offensive game. You didn't see Keith playing safeties as often as others, much to his detriment sometimes, but when he did pocket that "impossible dream" shot, it was like poetry in motion. It was beautiful.

In a traditional barkfest, some players try to high-roll others players, stating, "Well, I'll play you, but you got to play for $20,000," hoping the pool player would pass if he didn't have the cash.

Well, with Keith, he had a Rolodex of stakehorses around the country who would back him in high-stakes action matches. One time, he got staked over the phone. The stakehorse confirmed with his opponent that he would back Keith, so that they could move forward with the festivities. :grin-square:

I kind of don't like these "Who's the best?" threads because it seems like in order to praise one player, the status quo on this forum is to demean another in doing so. I just don't get it.

JAM -

Bobby made the comment "I can tell you this much for sure, any of these players that played Keith in his prime( and they bet their own cash and most of them would'nt) would have got their nuts shot off !"

I know Buddy RARELY played without a backer.

You have made numerous comments including the most recent one of Keith playing Dave for $10K and then only getting $2K for winning. Following with Keith was pretty disappointed in only getting $2K. Making me wonder, why wasnt that discussion had BEFORE the match, I have never heard of not knowing the distribution BEFORE the match is played, but nevertheless.

I dont think I was out of line at all. If you are saying that Keith ALWAYS bet his own, great. If he sometimes bet his own, great. If he was like Buddy and hardly ever bet his own, thats great too.

Bobby says it makes a difference, (I think it does too). But what the hell does Bobby know.

Ken

 

[JAM]

...
You have made numerous comments including the most recent one of Keith playing Dave for $10K and then only getting $2K for winning. Following with Keith was pretty disappointed in only getting $2K. Making me wonder, why wasnt that discussion had BEFORE the match, I have never heard of not knowing the distribution BEFORE the match is played, but nevertheless.

Ken, this is the problem with a black-and-white colloquy on some topics. It's not possible to cover every single detail.

Let me just say that if you knew who the backer was, what he was all about, you wouldn't have questioned one thing, either.

I saw this backer one time in Louisville, and he's pretty scary-looking. I wouldn't want to cross him. In fact, I wanted to get as far away from him as I could, and I'll just leave it at that.

Sometimes a player doesn't discuss things like this before a match. It happens. Sometimes the player trusts the stakehorse will treat them fairly. Sometimes it works out; sometimes it doesn't.

I could relay some more chop-chop stories, but that's not the topic of this thread. :grin-square:

And I'm not saying there is no difference in playing on your own money or getting staked. I was addressing another issue.

 

[Johnnyt]

Man, Keith just read this thread, what I wrote and a few others, and he wants to post. A few of the comments have gotten him fired up.

Never mind Keith posting. Tell him to come back and play some BB match ups and tournaments. With all the things guys ask for before they agree to play, like what rack, fouls, yes/no jump cues, I don't know why someone can't ask for the old one push rules. Johnnyt

 

[ironman]

They have played before,in Dallas,and David beat Keith real quick

Ok you would certainly know and i stand corrected. I thoughy a few mmonths ago, keith had siad they never played by guess I, am kust wrong. I ws clueess tjey had ever [ played/ OU should have tped it dummy. LOL!!

 

[sopadre]

KEITH M v DAVID M What a great match to watch on a BB.Everyone knows they can't play like they did in their prime,but it would still be good pool with a great show! I personally would rather see KEITH playJIMMY M.That would keep us awake!!

 

[Keith McCready]

Well, I woke up today, and the first thing I read was David Matlock versus Keith McCready. Whoever that guy is continuing to drag my name in posts with David must be a pretty good friend of David's, but he doesn't know all the facts or have all the facts.

Just for your information, first of all, I have all the respect for David. I would never say anything to hurt his feelings or rag on his game -- in other words, take it in the mud.

For you to say I couldn't beat David and never did beat David is absurd. The last time me and David played, it was a 10-ahead set in Richmond, Kentucky, at The Maverick Club. We played a 10-ahead set. It lasted about 50 minutes to an hour, me winning.

Second of all, David's 4-1/2-by-9 play was not nearly as strong as his bar table play. For you to say that I couldn't beat him playing 9-ball on a big table or 10-ball or one-pocket, I just wish that you would have been there when I had some real money and was playing all the time. I would have put you back on your back porch, right where you belong, reading a book.

The time that I did play David in Texas was in Dallas. I was getting staked by Weldon Rogers and Will Willingham. We didn't pick the location. It was in a guy's house with a buzzer. Every time David broke the balls, 3 and 4 balls would fly in, and every time I broke them, I wouldn't make a ball. There was something funny going on. Come to find out later, Sonny Spring, the guy's house that we played at, told me all about the buzzer. I played him after that, was chomping at the bit to play on neutral equipment, and I finally got my chance and I dusted him off. And then we played one more time after that, and that was at The Maverick Club.

There's nothing wrong with being friends with somebody, and I get it. I guess just like the way Bobby is with me, but Bobby knows what time of day it is. He witnessed a lot of my beatings on a lot of people. They shipped bar table players in from all over, and I shipped them, out one by one, busted and broke. I was giving everybody back then the 7-ball and the 8-ball. With the big cueball, they wouldn't play me. They had to go to the little cueball on the bar tables to even have a chance.

Back in the '70s, there was a Mexican by the name of Canella, who everybody said was the best bar table player in Mexico. I never really got to see how good he was because he never shot. I beat him two sets so fast, 10-aheads, that it would make you swim. He didn't ask me for weight because he didn't want to lose getting weight. Pride, I guess.

I was playing Morro Paez, giving him the 7 on a 4-by-8 with a big cueball, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball. This was all on a bar table with a big cueball, and they had to switch the big cueball to the little cueball. There used to be a bar called Nutty Nero's. That's where everybody would come after hours and play for days. They all checked up short. Kim Davenport, I was giving him the 7-ball on a big table. I would win some, lose some. We had some pretty good battles ourselves. None of these players would ever play me even.

I sort of wish that we could go back in time, but we can't. I'm 57 now, just about, not in combat like I used to be. But if you think in your right mind that I was afraid of David playing on any table, you're crazy. I've seen this Clint guy rambling on, on this website, trying to belittle me or put me down, and I don't know why.

I won't post any more about this. I consider David my friend, not my enemy. I hope David is doing well, and I know he is.

Just as an FYI, the three toughest players I ever played on a bar table were Boston Joey and Vernon Elliott and David Matlock -- in that order.

 

[denzy]

Just wondering about what years was considered your prime? From the mid 70's to the mid 80's or mid 80's to mid 90's. Back then on the bar box 8 ball was a big game. Keith did you consider yourself a great 8 ball player.

 

[JAlan]

Well, I woke up today, and the first thing I read was David Matlock versus Keith McCready. Whoever that guy is continuing to drag my name in posts with David must be a pretty good friend of David's, but he doesn't know all the facts or have all the facts.

Just for your information, first of all, I have all the respect for David. I would never say anything to hurt his feelings or rag on his game -- in other words, take it in the mud.

For you to say I couldn't beat David and never did beat David is absurd. The last time me and David played, it was a 10-ahead set in Richmond, Kentucky, at The Maverick Club. We played a 10-ahead set. It lasted about 50 minutes to an hour, me winning.

Second of all, David's 4-1/2-by-9 play was not nearly as strong as his bar table play. For you to say that I couldn't beat him playing 9-ball on a big table or 10-ball or one-pocket, I just wish that you would have been there when I had some real money and was playing all the time. I would have put you back on your back porch, right where you belong, reading a book.

The time that I did play David in Texas was in Dallas. I was getting staked by Weldon Rogers and Will Willingham. We didn't pick the location. It was in a guy's house with a buzzer. Every time David broke the balls, 3 and 4 balls would fly in, and every time I broke them, I wouldn't make a ball. There was something funny going on. Come to find out later, Sonny Spring, the guy's house that we played at, told me all about the buzzer. I played him after that, was chomping at the bit to play on neutral equipment, and I finally got my chance and I dusted him off. And then we played one more time after that, and that was at The Maverick Club.

There's nothing wrong with being friends with somebody, and I get it. I guess just like the way Bobby is with me, but Bobby knows what time of day it is. He witnessed a lot of my beatings on a lot of people. They shipped bar table players in from all over, and I shipped them, out one by one, busted and broke. I was giving everybody back then the 7-ball and the 8-ball. With the big cueball, they wouldn't play me. They had to go to the little cueball on the bar tables to even have a chance.

Back in the '70s, there was a Mexican by the name of Canella, who everybody said was the best bar table player in Mexico. I never really got to see how good he was because he never shot. I beat him two sets so fast, 10-aheads, that it would make you swim. He didn't ask me for weight because he didn't want to lose getting weight. Pride, I guess.

I was playing Morro Paez, giving him the 7 on a 4-by-8 with a big cueball, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball. This was all on a bar table with a big cueball, and they had to switch the big cueball to the little cueball. There used to be a bar called Nutty Nero's. That's where everybody would come after hours and play for days. They all checked up short. Kim Davenport, I was giving him the 7-ball on a big table. I would win some, lose some. We had some pretty good battles ourselves. None of these players would ever play me even.

I sort of wish that we could go back in time, but we can't. I'm 57 now, just about, not in combat like I used to be. But if you think in your right mind that I was afraid of David playing on any table, you're crazy. I've seen this Clint guy rambling on, on this website, trying to belittle me or put me down, and I don't know why.

I won't post any more about this. I consider David my friend, not my enemy. I hope David is doing well, and I know he is.

Just as an FYI, the three toughest players I ever played on a bar table were Boston Joey and Vernon Elliott and David Matlock -- in that order.

:thumbup: Thanks for posting Keith!

 

[jay helfert]

They have played before,in Dallas,and David beat Keith real quick

Keith was tired and David was fresh. Keith played anyway because he had a backer that wanted him to play. I sent Keith "get home" money. :smile:

 

[jay helfert]

Need to add Baltimore Buddy Dennis to that list. I staked Buddy when he beat Wade at Bennies in the 70's. I watched him go thru a lot of good players in the 70's on a bar box. Nobody had to beat him then.

A great undercover player. Not many knew his true speed.

 

[jay helfert]

The best players I watched play during the 70's and 80's on a barbox was,
Billy Johnson
Brian Ashley
Johnny Archer
Keith McCready
Buddy Hall
CJ Wiley
Paul Turner
Eugene Browning
Allen Hopkins
Scotty Townsend
Reid Pierce
David Matlock
Not in any special order, and I didn't play much up north or west of N.M.

I like this list! You know your players. With the big ball, you can add Bakersfield Bobby and Weldon Rogers. There was a West Coast hustler named Peter Gunn that beat everyone he played for years as well. And the Mexican champions (Sergio, Mario, Little Al) constantly robbed all the big table players who came to SoCal. One other guy out here was a monster, Harry "The Horse" McConnell. The only guy (besides Keith) who could beat the Mexicans on the little box.

 

[jay helfert]

Great post by the way ! I've played just about every one on that list back in the day ! In Ponca city I believe that Matlock was unbeatable there, and by the way a really good guy ! Wade Crane was also in the top 3 for many years, he played perfect with the big ball and also played great on the big tables ! I can tell you this much for sure, any of these players that played Keith in his prime( and they bet their own cash and most of them would'nt) would have got their nuts shot off ! Keith was fearless !!! I have played them all !

Bobby KNOWS! David was one of the few guys who wasn't afraid to play Keith, ON A BAR BOX! Keith scared EVERYONE on the big table. When he showed up, everyone ducked him. Keith never backed down from anyone at any time! He was without doubt the greatest natural pool player I ever saw. No one ever made this game look easier to play.

Keith's only problem was he spread himself a little too thin, burning the candle at both ends and in the middle!

P.S. When Efren first showed up in L.A. Keith gladly spotted him the eight ball....and beat him! Efren had never seen anything like Keith and he may have been stunned. There aren't any players like Keith in the Philippines! Later on Efren robbed Keith playing One Pocket, after he learned the game. Keith went from spotting him to getting weight and still losing. One Pocket was made for Efren, with his skills.

 

[jay helfert]

With all due respect, Ken, what does playing Keith on his money or somebody else's money have to do with how strong a player one is on a barbox?

It seems like people are nitpicking pool player's strengths on a barbox in recent threads, though I'm not sure for what purpose.

I can get Keith to post in this thread. He's been wanting to post lately on a few threads he's read on AzBilliards, but I have respectfully requested he remain mum on some topics. Keith isn't as familiar with forum culture as I am, and I don't want to see him paint himself in a corner on the black-and-white.

So having devoted hundreds, if not thousands of hours to the Keith McCready Story, I can definitely say Keith bet his own cash quite often. He used to carry big boodles of cabbage, I think they call it, but he was also staked by stakehorses when he was in his prime because he had a reputation of getting that money. Sometimes Keith would stay up all night gambling and show up at a tournament with no sleep. The tournament winner would win $5,000, but Keith would leave the tournament with 20 large from his action exploits. The tournament venues were oftentimes gathering places for players of Keith's ilk. :tongue:

Another thing that was unique about Keith when comparing him to other action players of his era is that Keith could walk into a joint and get action going, no problem. This still holds today. Some players might shoot lights out, but they have the personality of a gnat and can't get action unless it's handed to them.

The late Geese, may he rest in peace, was a GREAT action player, but he had the personality of a pitbull when it came to getting down. Geese would walk into a pool room and yell out, "Does anybody want to play some 9-ball?" and if there was no response, he'd turn to whoever he was with and say, "Okay, let's go. Nothing happening here." He just didn't have that finesse power or the gift of gab that Keith has.

What separates Keith from the rest is that everybody usually enjoyed the show, win or lose, when playing with Keith. Keith can massage, talk smack, and get down in any venue I've been with him at. Unlike Nick Varner and a few other strategic-type players, Keith had a very, very strong offensive game. You didn't see Keith playing safeties as often as others, much to his detriment sometimes, but when he did pocket that "impossible dream" shot, it was like poetry in motion. It was beautiful.

In a traditional barkfest, some players try to high-roll others players, stating, "Well, I'll play you, but you got to play for $20,000," hoping the pool player would pass if he didn't have the cash.

Well, with Keith, he had a Rolodex of stakehorses around the country who would back him in high-stakes action matches. One time, he got staked over the phone. The stakehorse confirmed with his opponent that he would back Keith, so that they could move forward with the festivities. :grin-square:

I kind of don't like these "Who's the best?" threads because it seems like in order to praise one player, the status quo on this forum is to demean another in doing so. I just don't get it.

Great post Jam. I can only second everything you said. Keith and I had some fun way back when. :smile:
Hey Keith, do you remember giving me the eight and the break. I actually won a set, before you made me quit! Ha Ha

 

[Cory in DC]

Well, I woke up today, and the first thing I read was David Matlock versus Keith McCready. Whoever that guy is continuing to drag my name in posts with David must be a pretty good friend of David's, but he doesn't know all the facts or have all the facts.

Just for your information, first of all, I have all the respect for David. I would never say anything to hurt his feelings or rag on his game -- in other words, take it in the mud.

For you to say I couldn't beat David and never did beat David is absurd. The last time me and David played, it was a 10-ahead set in Richmond, Kentucky, at The Maverick Club. We played a 10-ahead set. It lasted about 50 minutes to an hour, me winning.

Second of all, David's 4-1/2-by-9 play was not nearly as strong as his bar table play. For you to say that I couldn't beat him playing 9-ball on a big table or 10-ball or one-pocket, I just wish that you would have been there when I had some real money and was playing all the time. I would have put you back on your back porch, right where you belong, reading a book.

The time that I did play David in Texas was in Dallas. I was getting staked by Weldon Rogers and Will Willingham. We didn't pick the location. It was in a guy's house with a buzzer. Every time David broke the balls, 3 and 4 balls would fly in, and every time I broke them, I wouldn't make a ball. There was something funny going on. Come to find out later, Sonny Spring, the guy's house that we played at, told me all about the buzzer. I played him after that, was chomping at the bit to play on neutral equipment, and I finally got my chance and I dusted him off. And then we played one more time after that, and that was at The Maverick Club.

There's nothing wrong with being friends with somebody, and I get it. I guess just like the way Bobby is with me, but Bobby knows what time of day it is. He witnessed a lot of my beatings on a lot of people. They shipped bar table players in from all over, and I shipped them, out one by one, busted and broke. I was giving everybody back then the 7-ball and the 8-ball. With the big cueball, they wouldn't play me. They had to go to the little cueball on the bar tables to even have a chance.

Back in the '70s, there was a Mexican by the name of Canella, who everybody said was the best bar table player in Mexico. I never really got to see how good he was because he never shot. I beat him two sets so fast, 10-aheads, that it would make you swim. He didn't ask me for weight because he didn't want to lose getting weight. Pride, I guess.

I was playing Morro Paez, giving him the 7 on a 4-by-8 with a big cueball, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball. This was all on a bar table with a big cueball, and they had to switch the big cueball to the little cueball. There used to be a bar called Nutty Nero's. That's where everybody would come after hours and play for days. They all checked up short. Kim Davenport, I was giving him the 7-ball on a big table. I would win some, lose some. We had some pretty good battles ourselves. None of these players would ever play me even.

I sort of wish that we could go back in time, but we can't. I'm 57 now, just about, not in combat like I used to be. But if you think in your right mind that I was afraid of David playing on any table, you're crazy. I've seen this Clint guy rambling on, on this website, trying to belittle me or put me down, and I don't know why.

I won't post any more about this. I consider David my friend, not my enemy. I hope David is doing well, and I know he is.

Just as an FYI, the three toughest players I ever played on a bar table were Boston Joey and Vernon Elliott and David Matlock -- in that order.

What's a "buzzer"?

 

[Johnnyt]

What's a "buzzer"?

I have to admit I never heard that term before. Is that a West coast term? anybody? Johnnyt

 

[Charlie Hustle]

Put me in line for knowing what a buzzer is

 

[bobbycotton]

I've seen Buddy play several times on a bar table and in my opinion he was the BEST with a small cue ball ! Bar none !!!

 

[bobbycotton]

Ok what most people don't know is Keith is the greatest combination shooter of all times playing 9 ball ! "jus sayin"

 

[peteypooldude]

Thank you for posting Keith. I always enjoy reading your post .
Hope you and JAM are doing well

 

[bobbycotton]

I beat Kanella in Dallas on a bar table at Times Square in 1971 and I also beat Matlock playing even on a bar table in Mountain Grove Mo. in 1982 ! I might have never beat him again but it's the truth !