Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

Thanks for this good question. As a TD I will avail myself of every tool at my disposal to make the correct call. I can't tell you how many times we have relied on a "streamer" to replay a shot to watch a hit again. Same for the match game score. If an error was brought to my attention by a spectator or commentator, and the "streamer" had verified proof of that I would definitely use that information in making my decision.

That said I do not put the responsibility for an error during the course of the match being brought to my attention by anyone other than the players. If a streamer or commentator decides to tell me then I will intervene. That is entirely their decision whether they do or don't tell me. Some will and some won't, just like spectators. Often times, a spectator will be the one to inform a player of something wrong that happened during the course of a match. If it is then brought to my attention by the player I will make a ruling based on what I can determine took place.

Jay what do you think is the right thing to do if a player is shooting the wrong ball
and only shoots the right ball because a commentator or someone else says
something before he actually shoots. Except for an opponent, do you feel it
is fair for anyone else to point out to a player they are shooting the wrong ball ?

Further more is it even fair for the opponent to say anything when the other player
is shooting?
 
Last edited:
In the other Swanee thread,


QUOTE from JOEL POPE]......."the young kid decided to be a piece of shit............& take the win at least he declared his status early in life so people know what he is all about."

------------------------------> CLASSY POST


Let's remember here that the tournament director ruled in the kids favor.
His opponent came on here with a classy post... said it was my responsibility.

So I'm guessing this leaves you out of any discussions where integrity comes
into question.
 
Last edited:
Jay what do you think is the right thing to do if a player is shooting the wrong ball
and only shoots the right ball because a commentator or someone else says
something before he actually shoots. Except for an opponent, do you feel it
is fair for anyone else to point out to a player they are shooting the wrong ball ?

Further more is it even fair for the opponent to say anything when the other player
is shooting?

the problem was they lost the recording just before that, so the couldnt go back and look at it anyway. the computer had just gone down
 
Somewhat related story

At DCC I was watching a match between Ralf Soquet and a guy that was like me, a bracket filler. Ralf's opponent is running out and shoots the 4, then the 3 and runs out. Funny thing is Ralf was looking at the table as he did it, in his typical emotionless fashion. The set ended with Ralf winning 9-3 or something close fo it.

When it was over a few spectators and I were talking to the players and neither had a clue it happened. At one point I figured Souquet just let it slide...no way right?

Things happen in competition. Its all just part of the game. Bottom line its between the two players and we all did right by staying out of it. You learn this pretty early on.
 
the problem was they lost the recording just before that, so the couldnt go back and look at it anyway. the computer had just gone down

What recording the situation I spoke of here was hypothetical?

v----------vvvvvvvvvvv-------------v

Originally Posted by itsfroze View Post
Jay what do you think is the right thing to do if a player is shooting the wrong ball
and only shoots the right ball because a commentator or someone else says
something before he actually shoots. Except for an opponent, do you feel it
is fair for anyone else to point out to a player they are shooting the wrong ball ?

Further more is it even fair for the opponent to say anything when the other player
is shooting?
 
This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.

Tough call. I vote for the ethical and sportsmanlike path where you do not take something you did not earn. If the other man reaches 7 first and you know it then you lost the match.

However it IS the shooter's responsibility to mark their own games. Thus the opponent cannot and should not be put in the position of making sure that the opponent's score is correct for the benefit of the opponent.

Still I guess I consider it pretty much the same as marking an extra game for yourself. That sometimes happens intentionally and unintentionally. If intentionally then it's clearly unsportsmanlike and probably against the rules.

Here is where I have a problem. The score should be agreed on by both players BEFORE the next game starts and if they both agree then that's the score even if one of them slept a game. The reason is because after the fact when the match is not recorded it's impossible to really know if the game should have been marked or not. So to avoid ALL arguments it's a simple thing to look at your opponent BEFORE you break and call out the score and get his agreement.
 
I think the rule in the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship is
if you forget to mark your game, you snooze you lose.
 
'I'm just saying we need a little common sense to polish up the rules on these gray areas a little bit.

What grey area? If you sleep on it and the next game is finished then you remember
you don't get the game, period. No grey area.

In golf if you don't sign your score card, guess what YOU LOSE, to bad.
As it's the players responsibility, you don't hear people saying the guy who won is
unethical or unsportsmanlike.

People on here need to grow up you don't get to be irresponsible not follow the rules
whatever rule it might be (like it or not) and then try to lay it off on your opponent.

Golfers probably the most ethical sport there is, would laugh the arguments on here
right off the forum. He forgot to mark his score he pays for it. NO GREY AREA

Want to elevate this sport follow the rules, don't be lax or lazy and expect someone else to look out for you. Act Professional you'll be looked at as a Professional.

Didn't Tiger Woods commit about 3 illegal drops last year and the only one that he was actually punished for was when that guy watching on TV called the tournament director on the phone? And he wasn't even DQ'ed for turning in a inaccurate card the 1 time he was caught because he's tiger woods.

The #1 rule of all rules is "if you don't get caught then you did nothing wrong". You can drive drunk every day of your life and if you never get caught you never did anything wrong, right?
 
Didn't Tiger Woods commit about 3 illegal drops last year and the only one that he was actually punished for was when that guy watching on TV called the tournament director on the phone? And he wasn't even DQ'ed for turning in a inaccurate card the 1 time he was caught because he's tiger woods.

The #1 rule of all rules is "if you don't get caught then you did nothing wrong". You can drive drunk every day of your life and if you never get caught you never did anything wrong, right?
Wow, just wow
 
Didn't Tiger Woods commit about 3 illegal drops last year and the only one that he was actually punished for was when that guy watching on TV called the tournament director on the phone? And he wasn't even DQ'ed for turning in a inaccurate card the 1 time he was caught because he's tiger woods.

The #1 rule of all rules is "if you don't get caught then you did nothing wrong". You can drive drunk every day of your life and if you never get caught you never did anything wrong, right?

What does all that have to do with a player not being responsible enough to
mark up their game? Then people having the nerve to blame his opponent.
People need to own their actions or inactions. As this player did in a classy post.
Perhaps others can learn from his classy post.
wow just wow
 
What does all that have to do with a player not being responsible enough to
mark up their game? Then people having the nerve to blame his opponent.
People need to own their actions or inactions. As this player did in a classy post.
Perhaps others can learn from his classy post.
wow just wow

I'd have given the guy his game and took my loss, but that's just me. That's just the kind of person i was raised to be and some things are more important than winning at all cost.

The next tournament i walk into I'd rather have 100% of the people say "he's a stand up guy" then have 50% say "the rules say he won, but it was a crappy way to win"
 
I'd have given the guy his game and took my loss, but that's just me. That's just the kind of person i was raised to be and some things are more important than winning at all cost.

The next tournament i walk into I'd rather have 100% of the people say "he's a stand up guy" then have 50% say "the rules say he won, but it was a crappy way to win"

I talked to Chris today. He was about to give the win to Greg, it was all of the other players that talked to him said not to. Basically it was his mistake not Chris's. The kid just followed what many people he respects told him they would do.
 
Exactly and THAT is my problem with it.

I talked to Chris today. He was about to give the win to Greg, it was all of the other players that talked to him said not to. Basically it was his mistake not Chris's. The kid just followed what many people he respects told him they would do.

We have a young impressionable kid serious about pool and what are we doing, teaching him to be a self serving little ***** instead of an honorable gentleman.

That's why I said I don't blame him. I blame all of these punks that think it's alright to use the rules to your advantage even when it's NOT the right thing to do.

When I foul I call it on myself, if I see my opponent doesn't mark his score, I let him know. It's not right to take advantage of every little thing. Be honorable with your opponent. It's a game for christ's sake. If you're in the trenches pull their hair and gouge their eyes out for your survival, in a game, be friggin gentleman and encourage the same in others.

Jaden

Jaden
 
I'd have given the guy his game and took my loss, but that's just me. That's just the kind of person i was raised to be and some things are more important than winning at all cost.

The next tournament i walk into I'd rather have 100% of the people say "he's a stand up guy" then have 50% say "the rules say he won, but it was a crappy way to win"

How about we try, take responsibility for not marking your game up.
Just how does shirking your responsibility to mark up your game,
fit into that higher moral compass you apparently follow.

Maybe you missed the post where the guy who forgot, admitted it was his fault.
He also said his opponent was not to blame.

Yes I was raised that way too, but I don't think I'm better than others.
If he had pointed this out the next rack , fine I would say go a head and mark up
a game for yourself. Racks latter when it could possibly have altered the way play went, no dice.

It must be nice to feel like you're above the rules and can pick and choose
what rules should and shouldn't be followed using that higher moral standard
you seem to think you possess.
 
Last edited:
Neither. This is the referee's call. If I'm playing in a match like that and there is a referee available (which must have been the case at a big tournament like the Swanee), I defer 100% to the referee and would have no bitterness about either decision.

If I'm the player who forgot to put up a game, I would admit the technical error but hope that, with sufficient evidence, I would get credit for the game.

If I'm the other player, I don't think it's my role to concede a match (that I thought was still being contested) solely due to my opponent's error.

The reason to have a referee is to take these kinds of difficult decisions out of the players' hands.

Edit: Even if there's no ref at each table, there has to be a tournament director in charge of enforcing the rules. It's the TD's call, period.

As to your last statement about marking up two games, that's unsportsmanlike conduct and should be punished appropriately. In the case at hand, there's no intent to deceive by either player.

I have to agree here with basically exactly how you've explained it..

Rain-Man
 
I think this has been blown out of proportion.

I will explain my side to clear things up.

I arrived to the "TV" table first. since there needs to be more lighting for the cameras the score beads are not above the lights they are above the table where the players sit.

I sit at one side of the table and Chris arrives shortly after and takes the other seat. above each players seat are the score beads, Chris wins the first game and marks his game over my seat. I thought it was odd but one set of beads is white and the other are orange maybe he wanted white.

at 2-2- I win the game and Chris marks my game for me while i was racking.

score is now 3-2. I win a game and break and run the next. and I only marked 1 game.

score says 4-2 (5-2 is the actual score)

it goes 6-5 (7-5) and the commentators are informed that the score is wrong. I can hear them saying something that like" Gregs unaware of that" i figured it had to do with the pool game itself.

at 6-6 (7-6) my opponent takes a break I go to get a water and am informed about my score being wrong. a couple people had been trying to get my attention in the stands by waving their arms earlier but I was focused on my match and did not notice.

after knowing this I go to the back of the room to speak to the tournament director. i explain what happened and that it has been confirmed by pool-trax and everyone watching online and in the stands knew. and there was video proof. I was told that because it was so many games ago that it would not count.

Obviously this news sucked for me and there is no rule about your game not counting if you dont mark it, i see it all the time at tournaments, someone forgets to mark a game and a game or two passes and the player is informed by someone in the stands and they correct it.

I saw no point in making a big deal of it in front of everyone. I would only be upset and most likely still be forced to shoot a hill hill game. When i return to the table I hear people from the stands telling Chris to not let them count my game as a win. I sat down and waited for him to break, I lose the game

after Chris's parents come and say they felt bad and that I won the match. and tell me everyone in the stands knew the score.

Chris's mother gave him the choice to give me the match or take the win himself, he was having trouble deciding and I could tell he wanted to take the win so i told him if he didnt want to give me the match we could play 1 more hill hill game as it was now 7-7. he eventually said no he would take the win. I go to the back to collect my winnings and 5 minutres later someone from Chris's side gets me and says they are looking for me to play one last game apparently Chris changed his mind. When i return to the front his mom is there and Chris is outside. I wait around and someone comes back and tells me he changed his mind again and was going to take the win.

Chris had told everyone he was unaware of the score being wrong until it was 6-6 (7-6)

After I leave the tournament I found out that Chris's mom had texted him during our match telling him what happened. I remember this because during our match I was shooting at the table and heard it go off. and even thought why didnt he silence his phone like me? later I saw him checking his phone but maybe he wasnt reading the message he couldve been silencing his phone or something i dont know.

I applaud Chris's mother for trying to inform him the score was wrong and I believe she was the reason he had changed his mind and agreed to shooting out a 7-7 game. before changing his mind again.

What I dont get is why I was not informed by POV Pool once it came to their attention and had been confirmed. I was informed because they are just filming and commentating the match they are bias and have no say so. I have heard plenty of times on streams the commentators will inform the players if they forget to mark a game.

I think the decent thing to do was when they found out was to inform me after all they are the reason the score beads are not int he right spot and i have to play on this super tight 3 7/8" pocket table while constantly hearing what they are saying while shooting.

I remember when i was up 6-5 I was on the 4 ball and It was a long shot down the rail a 90% shot i make it.The other balls (5679) are all in front of the holes and before I pull the trigger i hear the commentator say "Well if Greg makes this the match is over" I dog the ball. Im not saying I missed it because of them but seriously I dont want to hear that half a second before i shoot the shot, i already know if i make it i win.

POV please invest in a Plexi glass sound barrier. all commentators use them when commentating so close to the match as it deflects the sound waves from going out towards the players. I know you guys have received plenty of complaints from players hearing you guys commentate. It cost $40 to make one from home depot. I will even buy it if need be.


All in all I lost because i forgot to mark a game which is completely my own fault.
this situation is already in the past and I am not going to think about it anymore.

nothing should be blamed on Chris

Just wanted to set the record straight of what happened.

FLAME ON AZ

Greg,

It's a pleasure to watch you play - you're a class act.

We wait for this tournament to come around each year and look forward to it. To get knocked out this way hurts, no doubt.
 
Last edited:
Here's the way we had it.

That's a tough question - an ethical win? - considering ethics will be based on one's morals, and they vary from person to person. In a perfect world, they'd all be like mine, right? :)

I mentioned on stream, that if both did the gentleman thing (suppose that could have been taken as "ethical"), Chris would have said, "You got to 7 first, you won.", and Greg would have responded, "It's okay, kid, I forgot to move the bead. My fault, your win.".

My opinion is that Chris got the win lawfully. To say one way is ethical or not seems like we'd have to know what each player could have only known themselves at the time - what was in their mind.

If I was informed AND believed/convinced my opponent forgot a match and should have won, I'd concede. I don't consider this to be more or less ethical than another decision, however, just what I'd do.

If I honestly forgot to mark my bead and it was brought to my attention by another player during a break from the match AND I believed it to be true AND could remember that rack, I'd ask my opponent if he remembered it like me. If he says yes and agrees to add my point I'd be happy. If he said he didn't remember that, I'd think, "I should have moved it then.", and life goes on.
 
Here's the way we had it.

That's a tough question - an ethical win? - considering ethics will be based on one's morals, and they vary from person to person. In a perfect world, they'd all be like mine, right? :)

I mentioned on stream, that if both did the gentleman thing (suppose that could have been taken as "ethical"), Chris would have said, "You got to 7 first, you won.", and Greg would have responded, "It's okay, kid, I forgot to move the bead. My fault, your win.".

My opinion is that Chris got the win lawfully. To say one way is ethical or not seems like we'd have to know what each player could have only known themselves at the time - what was in their mind.

If I was informed AND believed/convinced my opponent forgot a match and should have won, I'd concede. I don't consider this to be more or less ethical than another decision, however, just what I'd do.

If I honestly forgot to mark my bead and it was brought to my attention by another player during a break from the match AND I believed it to be true AND could remember that rack, I'd ask my opponent if he remembered it like me. If he says yes and agrees to add my point I'd be happy. If he said he didn't remember that, I'd think, "I should have moved it then.", and life goes on.
That says a lot. Plus the questionable advise Chris got from other players.
 
Greg blew it and didn't have to win the last game under pressure which we all know makes a ton of difference. Greg did NOT deserve the win. Period.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
We have a young impressionable kid serious about pool and what are we doing, teaching him to be a self serving little ***** instead of an honorable gentleman.

That's why I said I don't blame him. I blame all of these punks that think it's alright to use the rules to your advantage even when it's NOT the right thing to do.

When I foul I call it on myself, if I see my opponent doesn't mark his score, I let him know. It's not right to take advantage of every little thing. Be honorable with your opponent. It's a game for christ's sake. If you're in the trenches pull their hair and gouge their eyes out for your survival, in a game, be friggin gentleman and encourage the same in others.

Jaden

Jaden

Apparently, behavior befitting a "friggin gentlemen" includes going onto the Internet and calling people names and passing judgement on them for not doing what you do.

How do you reach the keyboard sitting on such a high horse?
 
Back
Top