Mosconi cup 2015 2016

[Mr. Bond]

Remember that the first Euro player to make it on transparent statistical grounds was Gray, who I believe turned out to be their weakest performer. And SVB was our top player statistically but also turned out to be our weakest. Justin Hall certainly wouldn't have made it going on mechanical, numeric rankings, but was far and away the top US performer.

Bingo.
Certain aspects of performance, specifically in a team setting are difficult to quantify in reality vs on paper.

That said, ( tournament) performance statistics are certainly not without merit. I just happen to believe that simply earning points at a tournament does not automatically equate to a great Mosconi Cup player.

 

[watchez]

You keep saying that and that's fine. But you don't offer much of anything other than to retort what someone posts that you don't like. And you're right, I don't watch much football.

I get that Mark and Justin are your personal friends but I'm not attacking them.

Do you honestly feel as though the challenge events equate to the Mosconi Cup? Come on man...

With that said, are you saying Mark didn't hand pick his team? Or did Matchroom pick 8 players and let Mark choose from there?

Teach us...

They may be my friends but if you read my posts you will see that I also stated that I did not agree with Mark and the 3 players not making the team being required to go to London. See that is what friends can do -- agree to disagree, respectfully.

Mark won't state it but it was implied that certain people should be on the team. Yes the US lost but they didn't embarrass themselves by their character.

 

[Ky Boy]

They may be my friends but if you read my posts you will see that I also stated that I did not agree with Mark and the 3 players not making the team being required to go to London. See that is what friends can do -- agree to disagree, respectfully.

Mark won't state it but it was implied that certain people should be on the team. Yes the US lost but they didn't embarrass themselves by their character.

Let me ask you this...Shouldn't Chris Bartrum know what he needs to to do make the team> Or many others?

I posted my opinion about selection criteria being made public and transparent after I read Chris Bartrum's post about gambling not being a part of the criteria.

So, admittedly, I spoke up about it thinking someone like Chris should know what is expected of them to make the team. That's why I said it should be made public. again, nothing more and nothing less.

While we don't know each other personally, I think we are agreeing to disagree respectfully. I know you are a good guy as we have a mutual friend or two so I'm not trying to purposefully ruffle feathers. Only being an advocate for others.

Gary

 

[pro9dg]

I wonder why some people feel the selection criteria needs to be transparent. The MC is an exhibition event put on by a private, foreign company. They can do what they want and choose who they want in order to put together the best (i.e., most profitable) event possible.

That is exactly right. Matchroom and Mark are putting together an entertainment vehicle which fulfils the criteria that is necessary for them to sell the finished product around the globe.
There is no body or nobody in the US to whom he will have to answer and so Mark is completely free to selected whoever he wants.
Having said that, Mark is a patriot and to paraphrase him "We came here to win, we didn't But we all will take a lot away from this week".

So there is no way that Messrs Hall and Bergman got their spots for being 'homeboys'.

I watched nearly every ball and things were much closer than the score suggests.. John Schmidt had some bad fortune which turned him from hero to zero and Shane had a distraction to which he is not normally accustomed and was not as zoned in as we would have liked him to be. A point from each of his four singles outings would ave put a different complexion on the scoreboard.
Mark has his finger on the pulse and will probably witness most of the stellar performers first hand in 2015. Then he will make his judgements accordingly.
and he will filter players using his own criteria. The results will produce another sell out show in Vegas where you can Love It or Leave It

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Name a US player besides SVB and Mike Dechaine that had a better statiscal year than Justin Bergman, in terms of quality wins over tough opponents and success overall in tournaments.

And to use your exact words -- much better

Jeremy is the guy and his results were almost exclusively on 9 footers.

in what part of the US do you live?

best,
brian kc

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

A Big Congrats to Jeremy Sossei on taking down the Predator Tour Holiday Classic 10b pro/am at Mr. Cues in Lindenhurst, NY this weekend....

oh, sorry, wrong section. :embarrassed2: :wink:

 

[sjm]

Jeremy is the guy and his results were almost exclusively on 9 footers.

in what part of the US do you live?

best,
brian kc

Agreed, Sossei had a big year, but he has nothing on his resume comparable to Bergman's win over an incredible field at Hard Times, which included a win over Biado in the final. Bergman even beat Schmidt at the World 14.1 event this summer.

Of the Mosconi 8, he'd have been my third choice for this year's Mosconi squad, behind Shane and Bergman, and just ahead of Hall. Hall finished strong but didn't have a year nearly as impressive as that of Jeremy, who, by the way, beat Van Boening at the Steinway 10-ball event in August.

 

[Jaden]

I did not make that assumption...

I know that very well. BUT I've known MW for over 15 years. He doesn't operate that way and making the assumption he does, with zero evidence, is uncalled for. Unless you have some kind of proof, rather than just your speculation, I believe you could try giving the man the benefit of the doubt based upon what those that do know him have to say.

Lou Figueroa

You're not reading my post correctly OBVIOUSLY, if you think I am accusing MW of ANYTHING...

This is what I said.

"Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Any time you have one man that is calling the shots without any standard set for the decision making process that allows said person to change his mind at will, it invokes the good ole boy network mentality.

You have to be a part of HIS good ole boy network or you're out, or at least the potential for that to be the case is there.

JAden"

That was a generic one man and it was what appearances can become, not necessarily what is.

Now, allow me to elaborate on what I was meaning.

I wasn't referring to the entire selection process. I'm referring to it from a player's perspective AFTER being selected as one of the eight.

I don't want it to necessarily be transparent to the general public, but I think it is only fair for it to be transparent to the selected players what the criteria is to become a member of the final team.

As I alluded to initially and spelled out in another post, once the 8 are selected I think a good method would be to give those 8 players a list of tournaments that will be points tournaments for the final selection.

Then towards the end of final selection, you have a round robin tournament amongst the 8 and teams of the final eight, so that everyone plays everyone and everyone teams up with everyone at least one time.

You weigh the tournament points with the results points from the round robin and then leave a percentage of final decision points at the discretion of the team captain.

That way the players know what they can do to insure they are on the team. You aren't leaving them in limbo to discover that it doesn't matter how well they do throughout the year, if it's decided by the team captain that he doesn't want them on the team at the end.

The captain can see how the teams gel with each other in the round robin and it will give him a good idea of how to partner them up at the actual cup and that gelling can be used as a part of the team captain discretion points. (The round robin can be PPV and the proceeds from it can be used as a consolation prize to the 3 members ultimately not chosen).

Any time you leave it up in the air how the decision was made it goes to affecting the psyche of the non-chosen AND the chosen, especially if their performance compared to those who WEREN'T chosen wasn't as good. That's also why I suggested a 45%-45%-10% split on the decision, because the 10% gives the captain wiggle room, but not so much that the players can really feel dissed if not chosen or given favoritism if chosen. If someone outperforms another person by more than the 10%, they deserve to be on the team above those other people IMO.

Doubt in the minds of the chosen, in this case, as to the merits of those chosen is a BAD thing.

Jaden

 

[watchez]

Agreed, Sossei had a big year, but he has nothing on his resume comparable to Bergman's win over an incredible field at Hard Times, which included a win over Biado in the final. Bergman even beat Schmidt at the World 14.1 event this summer.

Of the Mosconi 8, he'd have been my third choice for this year's Mosconi squad, behind Shane and Bergman, and just ahead of Hall. Hall finished strong but didn't have a year nearly as impressive as that of Jeremy, who, by the way, beat Van Boening at the Steinway 10-ball event in August.

Correct - for impressive wins throughout tournaments and wins in tournaments this year for a US player -

1, SVB
2. DeChaine
3. Bergman
4. Deuel
5. Sossei
6. Strickland

If I was the Mosconi Cup Captain, this is how I would rate players quality wise. i would give them a rating on a scale of 1-10 for the following.

1. Skill Level -- overall skill level, not taking into account recent tournament results. Maybe they had a bad couple of tourneys. Maybe they had to play Busty their first match and Ralf Souquet their second match while another player got to play a couple of shortstops before playing a true player.

2. Results -- have they won anything the past year or had any high finishes.

3. Character -- is the person of high character

4. Teamwork -- how will the person act and influence as a teammate.

Then the top 5 would make the team.

 

[wrldpro]

For players to have to buy into Mark Wilsons system of sit down and shut up, you talk when I tell you to, if I want your opinion I will give to you, is bullshit.

These are not 5 yr olds you are teaching a lesson , they are grown adults. Treat them as such.

Enter in a contract, if you as a member of this team should act like an Ahole you forfeit all money to be received . You will reimburse whomever for any money already received, (Expenses) Never to be a member of this team again, you will be left in an alley in Blackpool to get your brains kicked in, Then you go to Little Italy where my cousin Vito cuts off your fingers and we put it in the Pasta Fagioli and feed it to your family.....off with your head.

These guys earn $17.00 a year. Watch how fast they act like men when a nice paycheck is on the line, if they run their mouth goodbye paycheck.
Some of the body language and facial expressions I saw were ridiculous, they had loser written all over them. (Hello Coach, um Coach, do your job) If I had one of those boxing gloves that shoots out of the spring I would have been loading that thing up.


Mark Wilson dogged it as a coach, never moved out of his chair, maybe he had hemorrhoids.
I don't know what anybody else was watching, the only gel I saw was on a players head.
John Schmidt on the team? I will leave that one alone today

Field the best team
Sign the contract
Coach as a coach should
Let's Compete

Stop trying to change the world (edit it a little bit) stop trying to teach grown men lessons for a 5 year old……..LETS PLAY POOL

Best post in this thread so far except for a few things like the violence and hemorrhoids. I also think besides the forfeiting of the players money there should only be money given to the winners of the Mosconi Cup so the players stay focused on the overall picture and that's winning not whining.

 

[sjm]

Correct - for impressive wins throughout tournaments and wins in tournaments this year for a US player -

1, SVB
2. DeChaine
3. Bergman
4. Deuel
5. Sossei
6. Strickland

If I was the Mosconi Cup Captain, this is how I would rate players quality wise. i would give them a rating on a scale of 1-10 for the following.

1. Skill Level -- overall skill level, not taking into account recent tournament results. Maybe they had a bad couple of tourneys. Maybe they had to play Busty their first match and Ralf Souquet their second match while another player got to play a couple of shortstops before playing a true player.

2. Results -- have they won anything the past year or had any high finishes.

3. Character -- is the person of high character

4. Teamwork -- how will the person act and influence as a teammate.

Then the top 5 would make the team.

To this exceptional post, I'd only add that Justin Hall's brilliance in 2014 Mosconi must somehow be accounted for in the next selection process. As an American pool fan, I would be disappointed if Hall is not on our next team. Given how well he played on foreign soil, it's tough not to be curious what he is capable of here in America.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Best post in this thread so far except for a few things like the violence and hemorrhoids. I also think besides the forfeiting of the players money there should only be money given to the winners of the Mosconi Cup so the players stay focused on the overall picture and that's winning not whining.

Thank you
I like your idea only the winners get paid, that's a winner.

Im not Violent, threw that in there for drama, maybe they will get the point.
I can't think of any other reason Wilson never got out of the chair unless he was naked or wet himself, I went with the roids.

.

 

[Jaden]

That's just not feasable for several reasons.

Best post in this thread so far except for a few things like the violence and hemorrhoids. I also think besides the forfeiting of the players money there should only be money given to the winners of the Mosconi Cup so the players stay focused on the overall picture and that's winning not whining.

One, this is a show with an element of competition, not a competition that's being shown.

Two, most pool players cannot afford to give up a week of their lives and travel to another country without a guarantee of some pay for their efforts.

Have you seen the list of players from the US competing overseas in the last decade? It's not even enough players to FIELD a mosconi team.

Jaden

 

[itsfroze]

=============

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I know that very well. BUT I've known MW for over 15 years. He doesn't operate that way and making the assumption he does, with zero evidence, is uncalled for. Unless you have some kind of proof, rather than just your speculation, I believe you could try giving the man the benefit of the doubt based upon what those that do know him have to say.

Lou Figueroa

Famous words "Trust No One"

Life is like a board game, "You need to know the rules"

Mother Teresa could be captain and I would still convey the need for people to know the rules. People are not psychic and especially pool player! We can't read between the lines. But, you kick a man and he will eventual get the point. Mark has done alot of kicking and may or may not know it???

Mark is learning in my opinion. Having ultimate power in some situations does not mean it has no consequences. I watched his 45 minutes plus interview on youtube to better understand the man. My impression is he is a "well meaning" man! He wanted to do so much and he said so numerous times. Funding dried up and many plans went the way of the dodo bird. He said he "planned to host try out matches for transparency" his words at the 20 minute mark! some at lindenwood and travel both coast building up interest at area pool rooms while charting the race down to 5. Pretty grand plans, anyway time started to run out and he went with the players he knew best IMO. In hindsight, i can't blame him! Just the collateral damage of that decision, for the 3 strung along and in the path of that decision was brutal. They should have been given the rules and criteria for earning a slot vs going with one's gut. No crying over spilled milk! Put a bandaid on it and salvage those relationships, IMO. The way the money in pro pool is, many may be working a 9 to 5 soon.

I still lobby for transparency! Just think the captain is making honest mistakes and not seeing the big picture sometimes. I want to keep and open mind and see what he does to patch things up and put things in place to give the cup some structure and transparency. He is on the clock though. Time will tell!

KD

 

[lfigueroa]

Let me ask you this...Shouldn't Chris Bartrum know what he needs to to do make the team> Or many others?

I posted my opinion about selection criteria being made public and transparent after I read Chris Bartrum's post about gambling not being a part of the criteria.

So, admittedly, I spoke up about it thinking someone like Chris should know what is expected of them to make the team. That's why I said it should be made public. again, nothing more and nothing less.

While we don't know each other personally, I think we are agreeing to disagree respectfully. I know you are a good guy as we have a mutual friend or two so I'm not trying to purposefully ruffle feathers. Only being an advocate for others.

Gary

Personally, I think CB is a very viable candidate.

So, if Chris wants to be on the team next year, what is stopping him from picking up the phone and asking MW one simple question: what will it take for me to make the US Mosconi Cup team in 2015?

How hard is that?

Lou Figueroa

 

[itsfroze]

=============

 

[lfigueroa]

You're not reading my post correctly OBVIOUSLY, if you think I am accusing MW of ANYTHING...

This is what I said.

"Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Any time you have one man that is calling the shots without any standard set for the decision making process that allows said person to change his mind at will, it invokes the good ole boy network mentality.

You have to be a part of HIS good ole boy network or you're out, or at least the potential for that to be the case is there.

JAden"

That was a generic one man and it was what appearances can become, not necessarily what is.

Now, allow me to elaborate on what I was meaning.

I wasn't referring to the entire selection process. I'm referring to it from a player's perspective AFTER being selected as one of the eight.

I don't want it to necessarily be transparent to the general public, but I think it is only fair for it to be transparent to the selected players what the criteria is to become a member of the final team.

As I alluded to initially and spelled out in another post, once the 8 are selected I think a good method would be to give those 8 players a list of tournaments that will be points tournaments for the final selection.

Then towards the end of final selection, you have a round robin tournament amongst the 8 and teams of the final eight, so that everyone plays everyone and everyone teams up with everyone at least one time.

You weigh the tournament points with the results points from the round robin and then leave a percentage of final decision points at the discretion of the team captain.

That way the players know what they can do to insure they are on the team. You aren't leaving them in limbo to discover that it doesn't matter how well they do throughout the year, if it's decided by the team captain that he doesn't want them on the team at the end.

The captain can see how the teams gel with each other in the round robin and it will give him a good idea of how to partner them up at the actual cup and that gelling can be used as a part of the team captain discretion points. (The round robin can be PPV and the proceeds from it can be used as a consolation prize to the 3 members ultimately not chosen).

Any time you leave it up in the air how the decision was made it goes to affecting the psyche of the non-chosen AND the chosen, especially if their performance compared to those who WEREN'T chosen wasn't as good. That's also why I suggested a 45%-45%-10% split on the decision, because the 10% gives the captain wiggle room, but not so much that the players can really feel dissed if not chosen or given favoritism if chosen. If someone outperforms another person by more than the 10%, they deserve to be on the team above those other people IMO.

Doubt in the minds of the chosen, in this case, as to the merits of those chosen is a BAD thing.

Jaden

I did not say you were accusing him of anything -- I was giving you more credit than that and said you insinuated something was going on. You cannot deny you did that much.

As to the rest I must ask you: do you really think that from the outset MW didn't spell out what he'd be looking for? Do you really believe that he just said: do your best and I'll figure something out but I'm not going to tell you how I'll decide who plays, or maybe pull names from a hat?!

Every one of the MC8 knew what Mark was looking for, but bottom line -- he'd pick whom he thought would make the best team of five. No one got surprised.

Life is not fair. We're all judged in someway every single day. If those not picked weren't up to that they should never have thrown their hat in the ring to begin with.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Famous words "Trust No One"

Life is like a board game, "You need to know the rules"

Mother Teresa could be captain and I would still convey the need for people to know the rules. People are not psychic and especially pool player! We can't read between the lines. But, you kick a man and he will eventual get the point. Mark has done alot of kicking and may or may not know it???

Mark is learning in my opinion. Having ultimate power in some situations does not mean it has no consequences. I watched his 45 minutes plus interview on youtube to better understand the man. My impression is he is a "well meaning" man! He wanted to do so much and he said so numerous times. Funding dried up and many plans went the way of the dodo bird. He said he "planned to host try out matches for transparency" his words at the 20 minute mark! some at lindenwood and travel both coast building up interest at area pool rooms while charting the race down to 5. Pretty grand plans, anyway time started to run out and he went with the players he knew best IMO. In hindsight, i can't blame him! Just the collateral damage of that decision, for the 3 strung along and in the path of that decision was brutal. They should have been given the rules and criteria for earning a slot vs going with one's gut. No crying over spilled milk! Put a bandaid on it and salvage those relationships, IMO. The way the money in pro pool is, many may be working a 9 to 5 soon.

I still lobby for transparency! Just think the captain is making honest mistakes and not seeing the big picture sometimes. I want to keep and open mind and see what he does to patch things up and put things in place to give the cup some structure and transparency. He is on the clock though. Time will tell!

KD

Well, "trust no one" is a very hard way to go through life. I sleep easy trusting lots of folks in life. YMMV.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Jaden]

I know directly that he insinuated that there would be a more direct method...

I did not say you were accusing him of anything -- I was giving you more credit than that and said you insinuated something was going on. You cannot deny you did that much.

As to the rest I must ask you: do you really think that from the outset MW didn't spell out what he'd be looking for? Do you really believe that he just said: do your best and I'll figure something out but I'm not going to tell you how I'll decide who plays, or maybe pull names from a hat?!

Every one of the MC 8 knew what Mark was looking for, but bottom line -- he'd pick whom he though would make the best team of five. No one got surprised.

Life is not fair. We're all judged in someway every single day. If those not picked weren't up to that they should never have thrown their hat in the ring to begin with.

Lou Figueroa

Ummm... where are you pulling this "No one got surprised." from?

When I said I was saying this from the perspective of a selected player, it was based on what I know directly from a selected player.

Jaden