Players not being paid at US Open
- Thread starter truefan
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Speaking of slow paying ..............
Johnny Archer was interviewed on Am. Billiard Radio yesterday. He said that when he won the US Open 9-Ball Championship in 1999, he was put on a payment plan for the winner's prize money. So Barry Behrman's practice of slow paying goes way back.
In an ABR interview with Barry after this year's Open, he indicated that payments next year will be made in full at the event, by check cashable immediately -- paid by one of his sponsoring corporations. He said an announcement about that would be made soon. I hope that does happen and that it is a widely known and reliable corporation. We'll see.
Johnny Archer was interviewed on Am. Billiard Radio yesterday. He said that when he won the US Open 9-Ball Championship in 1999, he was put on a payment plan for the winner's prize money. So Barry Behrman's practice of slow paying goes way back.
In an ABR interview with Barry after this year's Open, he indicated that payments next year will be made in full at the event, by check cashable immediately -- paid by one of his sponsoring corporations. He said an announcement about that would be made soon. I hope that does happen and that it is a widely known and reliable corporation. We'll see.
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The part that is so amazing about the whole thing is -- apparently he does ALWAYS eventually come through with payment.
Instead of pretending that he's going to pay everyone upfront, why not just let them know they will be paid on an installment plan and point to the fact that he always comes through.
If you strip away all the empty promises of payment right at the conclusion of the event what you are left with is a guy with a record of paying.
It's not a bad record, it's just a horrible way to do business.
It's sort of like that guy that is always wanting to gamble with you but he never has the money with him. Usually you don't like playing that guy, but if you decide to play him -- against your better judgment -- and he comes through with the future payments, eventually you just keep playing him. That guy would be an idiot if every time he went to play you he said he had the money with him out in the car, when of course you know otherwise. Instead he should just say, "Hey you know I'm good for it. Let's play pool."
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One year he said he would have the prize money in cash under glass with an armed guard. I swear he said that.
Ahahahahahahaha
It doesn't matter what he says as he feels there need be no conformity between what he says and what he does. You are just as well off listening to a duck at your local pond.
Jose Parica was the biggest "winner," and he's still owed close to $50,000
How about the "Camel Tour," many people don't realize they didn't pay their first 4 tournaments.....Jose Parica was the biggest "winner," and he's still owed close to $50,000 (he told me directly in Houston).
There was a total owed of well over $200,000 and a subsequent lawsuit that amounted to approximately $750,000 against RJ Reynolds / Camel Brand....the lawsuit was settled, unfortunately only a few players received anything.
How about the "Camel Tour," many people don't realize they didn't pay their first 4 tournaments.....Jose Parica was the biggest "winner," and he's still owed close to $50,000 (he told me directly in Houston).
There was a total owed of well over $200,000 and a subsequent lawsuit that amounted to approximately $750,000 against RJ Reynolds / Camel Brand....the lawsuit was settled, unfortunately only a few players received anything.
Would have been better to pass the money to Brady and ask Brady to pay Danny directly
Good point!
Many forget that, you can't give something you don't have!
Only solution is to "borrow" or liquidate assets!. Nothing else is possible!!!
To attack the person lending the money and doing Brady the favor! How receptive is Brady when he hears what occurred???
Brady "might" take offense that you were "offensive" to a friend lending him $1500.
Not impossible and very likely!
Kd
This is rather lengthy - but I will fill in some blanks for the people that have left me red rep and called me a pos for my earlier comments. Just like many situations, there were a lot of conversations that took place off of the internet. During these conversations I spoke to many people - all of whom were in favor of getting Danny paid what was owed to him.
First of all, I love this game and I know talent when I see it. Prior to involving myself in this situation I had only met Danny twice and spoken to him once. The first time I met Danny was in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania - I think that was in 1993. Our conversation was so memorable that Danny doesn't even remember it. It was a short conversation about shoes. He was a good kid and a great player.
When I first heard about this situation in 2004 - I reached out to help Danny because I have always admired his game. Great players should be on the table doing what they do best.
I involved myself in this situation quite by accident via this forum. The amount owed to Danny was within my ability to help him out - so I made the offer. I also presented the offer to Brady Behrman.
Here is a link to a thread from May of 2005 concerning the conversation that I had with all parties regarding this issue.
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=12856
FTR, during all of our conversations, Brady was very receptive - however at the time these discussions were going on - Brady repeatedly told me that he wanted to take care of this debt himself. The problem was that Brady didn't have the money. At the time, Brady was a young man that wanted to prove to the world that he could take care of his own problems. I will go out of my way to make this statement -Brady Behrman's intentions in 2005 was to pay all of the players in full.
The main thing that needs to be understood about this situation, is that Danny was not the only player that was owed money. There were 4 players owed - (Danny Harriman - Rodney Morris - Young Hwa Jeong - Mika Immonen). I spoke with Rodney, Danny and Mika. I never spoke to Young Hwa Jeong at all.
Initially, my goal was to see that all the players were paid. Not all of the players wanted to be paid. When I spoke to Mika about this issue in 2005, he told me that at that point in time, it was probably better that he didn't get paid because he would have had to pay Finnish taxes on that money - as well as US taxes. He had written it off a long time ago - and although he thought my quest to get him paid was admirable - he shrugged it off and told me that in the future - if he ever needed a hitman - like in the Godfather - that I would be his first choice.
In 2005 - I talked to Rodney Morris about this situation. During our conversation, Rodney did not seem concerned about it all. Without getting too specific - all I will say is that I felt no need to talk with Rodney about it any further. I figured that if it was big deal at all to him - then Rodney had the ability to take care of his own business. Rodney is awesome!
Brady still wanted to make this right. The main thing that I got from our conversations is that Brady definitely wanted do the right thing. At the time, Brady was young and like most young people - he was struggling. To dispel another rumor - Brady didn't have his hands in his dad's pockets. During this time period, Brady did not have the authority to pay any of the players back with free entry into the US Open. In fact, Brady did everything within his power to keep his father out of this situation so that he could handle this matter himself.
At one point, Brady was able to scrape up $1000 to send to the UPA. I remember that Brady could not afford to do this at the time, but he did it anyway to show that he intended to take care of this debt. The $100) was sent to the UPA Treasurer - at the time that was Martin Rimlinger. When he received the $1000 from Brady - it was split 4 ways. Each player was paid $250.00. I believe that this payment occurred some time in late 2005 or early 2006. It was the only payment received by the UPA - as the UPA went through several changes at the end of 2006.
In December 2006, I had a very lengthy phone conversation with Frank Alvarez concerning the future of the UPA. This conversation occurred during the downfall of the IPT. During the IPT - the UPA had gone through several changes. Frank told me that he owned the UPA - Danny's situation was not discussed during this conversation. However - I had several conversations with Frank during this time period and he was always adamant about the fact that the UPA was a non-profit organization. The way that Frank explained that to me was that all money that came in - went back out. I won't pretend to know the particulars about that - but Frank Alvarez was always very open, honest, and helpful throughout the entire process.
The UPA of 2005-2006 had an entirely different organizational structure than the UPA of 2014. I'm pretty sure that anybody from this forum could call Frank today and I guarantee you that Frank will answer every one of your questions. I doubt he will discuss anything pertaining to Danny. This is because of posts and statements that Danny has made about Frank over the years. I believe that I have spoke to Frank about this issue more than anybody. I know Frank's stance on this issue is that the UPA reached out to Danny on several occasions.
Danny's response to the "UPA" were usually directed at Frank Alvarez regarding a personal issue that Danny had with Frank concerning an incident at another event.
Danny and I became friends during this process. I thought we were good friends. Despite the fact that I was unable to get Danny paid the money he was owed, I was able to open doors and reconstruct a few bridges for Danny. In 2006, I spent hours and hours on the phone trying to convince Charlie Williams to invite Danny to the Straight Pool World Championships. After a long process - Charlie finally called me on the phone on Sunday and told me that he needed Danny's entry immediately - and he needed to get to New Jersey by Friday. Let's just say "mission accomplished". I did that because Danny was/is one of the best straight pool players in the world - and he deserved to be there. I was unaware of Danny's true feelings about my attempts to help him - or about our friendship until he attacked me on this forum about 2 years ago. If I seem overly hostile to Danny - that is why.
FWIW, Brady and I got into an argument somewhere along the line. It was so long ago that I forget what it was about. I do know that in my conversations with Brady that he felt horrible about this. He wanted to make the situation right - however - I know that at the time of these discussions Danny's internet postings were irritating everybody - especially Brady. As I said earlier, Brady was going through some hard times -we've all been there. Brady never made excuses to me at all concerning this situation. Brady never reached out to anybody for help to take care of this debt - not to me - not even to his father - that is because he wanted to take care of it himself. It was very important to Brady to take care of this himself. If Brady reads this - I hold no hard feelings at all - and I will tell everybody the truth about your intentions during my involvement in this situation.
My offer to pay the money that was owed to Danny was offered as a solution to get one of the best players in the world back onto the table. That was my only intention despite how Danny wants to twist it. I wasn't doing this to be a big shot - I wasn't doing it to be a "political puppet" for anybody. My offer of payment was a solution that was offered - and it was turned down immediately. The money I offered to pay would have been sent to Brady and then Brady would pay the UPA. The UPA would distribute the money to the players. I remember at the time I told Brady that he could pay me back in installments if he had to. However - you have to remember - for Danny to get the full amount he was owed - I would have had to have paid all 4 players - not just Danny.
I think it says a lot that Brady paid money despite the personal attacks he was receiving at the time. I know it looks bad that players weren't paid - but I personally had several conversations with Brady and I know he wanted to make this right. Anybody that says otherwise is way off base. When the UPA went through the changes in 2006 - I am not sure if the "new UPA" held on to any ties to these debts. Even if Brady sent money - who would he send it to? It doesn't change the fact that he still owed money - but if that money was to be paid to Danny from Brady - whether it was paid or not would depend upon what kind of relationship the two had between them.
I don't know the specifics of about the situation where Danny played in the US Open. I do remember that Danny and I spoke on the phone about it. Danny told me that he was "happy to put this situation to rest and to move forward." Too bad you didn't mean that, Danny.
As far the money Danny is owed - I believe that there is a way to apply pressure and get results - and there is a way to apply pressure and piss people off. If all that you do is piss everybody off - then in the end, nobody is going to be willing to help you. It doesn't mean that Danny shouldn't be paid - it just means that he handles things incorrectly.
One of the most difficult things that I had to deal with in this situation was Danny's strained relationships with everybody involved. Although it was exhausting at times trying to communicate and serve as a mediator - I tried my best. At times it seemed that for every bridge I built, Danny tore 3 more down. I'm sure that I didn't do a perfect job - but I tried to get Danny paid. I contacted everybody involved in this situation (except Young Hwa Jeoung).
All I wanted to do was provide a solution to Danny and to show him that there are a few good people in the world of pool that care. In the end, I turned into just another person that Danny blames in this situation. Instead of being thought of as someone that was out there trying to help him move past this and get on with his playing career - I am now referred to as a "political puppet" - "someone that hurt him" - "someone that is part of some Asian conspiracy to damage his good reputation" - I'm "someone that pretended to be his friend" - etc etc etc. that is all bullshit that Danny is feeding to people to get them to feel bad for him about not getting paid. The truth is that several attempts were made to help him in this situation - not only by me - but by several other people.
The sad part is that Danny's talent to play the game easily places him in the top 5% of players in the world. Many people would kill to have half of Danny's ability, knowledge, and skill. It's sad that Danny chooses to concentrate more on all of this nonsense than his playing. It is sad that as close as Danny and I were as friends (at least that is how I saw it) he now chooses (for whatever reason) to attack me and insult me publicly (not privately). I have tried to be there as friend - and due to his recent actions towards me, I can only assume that he doesn't want (or doesn't have any use for) friends. His choice.
In 2008, the "new UPA" went on to stage another event where money was not on hand for the event (Desert Shoot-Out Classic - this was the event concerning Chuck Bobbitt). It took a lot of cooperation between several people, but as of May of 2008, this situation was being taken care of by Jay Helfert and Mark Griffin (as per the link provided below). http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=99269
Kid political powder puff
This sounds ok at first, I don't have blackjacks post to bring up but a few years back he (David Sapolis) aka Blackjack in some twisted fashion defended Frank Alvarez's position bout me not telling the story right or something to this nature. I want the pool world to know I waited almost four years before I decided to make a post on az about this and when I did Brady said he had paid me which was a lie. Keith McCready also said I was over reacting and that he could get me paid also - he said slobberingly that I suffered from too much pride. It's funny how hollywood and the military always surface for the under cover stuff. I am just telling my side of the story and am still owed a grand total of exactly $1,000.00, what is a large black eye for pool is that it showed in the pool magazine that I in fact won this money. I am the last person on the planet who wants to bring any more neg. energy my way or put my self in the spot light for anythin even halfway negative- I choose my battles and this was an injustice. When an outside party offers me something for free (blackjack) I tend to want to move the party indoors and want to know who is buying my drinks. Again not looking for any attention just laying down the facts as I see them. I guess it's ok to hold a pro tournament and not pay one of the players. there simply is no protection for the players.
This sounds ok at first, I don't have blackjacks post to bring up but a few years back he (David Sapolis) aka Blackjack in some twisted fashion defended Frank Alvarez's position bout me not telling the story right or something to this nature. I want the pool world to know I waited almost four years before I decided to make a post on az about this and when I did Brady said he had paid me which was a lie. Keith McCready also said I was over reacting and that he could get me paid also - he said slobberingly that I suffered from too much pride. It's funny how hollywood and the military always surface for the under cover stuff. I am just telling my side of the story and am still owed a grand total of exactly $1,000.00, what is a large black eye for pool is that it showed in the pool magazine that I in fact won this money. I am the last person on the planet who wants to bring any more neg. energy my way or put my self in the spot light for anythin even halfway negative- I choose my battles and this was an injustice. When an outside party offers me something for free (blackjack) I tend to want to move the party indoors and want to know who is buying my drinks. Again not looking for any attention just laying down the facts as I see them. I guess it's ok to hold a pro tournament and not pay one of the players. there simply is no protection for the players.
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You are beyond impossible.
Please no player review from u sir
Try playing me some straight pool race to five hundred for some of your undercover cash you will learn a new meaning of impossible.
Try playing me some straight pool race to five hundred for some of your undercover cash you will learn a new meaning of impossible.
seems like danny is a hot head and not a good one for politics in his profession.
blackjack seems like a pool star admirer and wanted to help his idol and his idol didnt want his help. so he kept putting his nose in someone elses business. good intentions but bad thinking as that never works out.
brady didnt pay and owed the money with his own admission. he was and is responsible to pay his debts. even after being harrased if he was or given a pile of s===t from danny. he still owed the money.
his dad is not involved in this so he doesnt owe anything. but if he uses brady in his tournaments it makes him look bad as well. someone that owes the participants money should not be working or partners in any event until all are paid with the proper interest on the money. as money owed is a forced loan.
blackjack seems like a pool star admirer and wanted to help his idol and his idol didnt want his help. so he kept putting his nose in someone elses business. good intentions but bad thinking as that never works out.
brady didnt pay and owed the money with his own admission. he was and is responsible to pay his debts. even after being harrased if he was or given a pile of s===t from danny. he still owed the money.
his dad is not involved in this so he doesnt owe anything. but if he uses brady in his tournaments it makes him look bad as well. someone that owes the participants money should not be working or partners in any event until all are paid with the proper interest on the money. as money owed is a forced loan.
Sounds a bit like sour grapes... "my dad can beat up your dad!"...LOL David tried to help you out, and you couldn't deal with it. Case closed...
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Good point billiards publications should print retractions.
Instead of just printing the prize money to be paid if the field is max.
They should print to say and get confirmation that players were paid.
AZ does keep a tally of prize money won, but is it the same as prize money paid?
Whether or not you care as fans is fine? I think the point paints a more accurate picture of what is happening.
It can be like NASCAR where fans would just wait to see a crash. But billiards is smaller and more people are looking to see which hungry stray thinks they are ready to move on.
When he says it like that it sounds easier than winning a tournament. But that means he is well rested.
But if he was playing 5 days straight with poor sleep, like the US Open, I would think beating him in a tournament is easier.
Just to be clear I don't think I can win, I am just citing the preferable realistic conditions to compete with that level of billiard player.
But if he was playing 5 days straight with poor sleep, like the US Open, I would think beating him in a tournament is easier.
Just to be clear I don't think I can win, I am just citing the preferable realistic conditions to compete with that level of billiard player.
If he only won $1,000 he surely wasn't playing for 5 days.
Kind of strange that only one player wasn't paid.
.
If he only won $1,000 he surely wasn't playing for 5 days.
Kind of strange that only one player wasn't paid.
.
It just wasn't Danny that wasn't paid. There were others.