An Open Discussion about an improper Banning

You can never duplicate what is the Four Horseman, The game will teach us aim Earl

I'm not sure why he has decided to try and use our Four Horseman nickname, I think he maybe got a little crazy after doing a rail off of a Ultimate Pool Secrets dvd.

CJ has been selling his dvds here on azbilliards for months now, even after the playoff games this weekend when the Packers won and the Patriots won.

Now that is what you call a Hot cup of coffee.
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Today I was at the local bar playing some pool during league and I noticed a couple arguing about something that they had read in a magazine while in line at walmart. I thought to myself, I wonder what they had for lunch today?

If anyone needs copies of dvds on how to play pool and be mediocre at it, just send me a PM on here and i'll give you a price quote and send a sign copy from myself and my fellow 4 horsemen.
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watchez said:
You should be more upset that CJ is using the name of the Four Horsemen and can't come up with an original name--- that was already deemed for me, you, fatboy and billyraychips --- show em Disco.
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lfigueroa said:
It is difficult to act as an adult when "the rules" are so capriciously enforced.

How do you act as an adult when John was tossed so many times, for short periods, only to be allowed to come back under his own name and aliases? How can you act as an adult when PJ gets banned for two years for behavior that never came close to what JB did on a regular basis? It's an illogical expectation, when "the rules" are enforced (or not) at a whim.

How do you act as an adult when some get publicly scolded, while others get a warning in private? When some guys are allowed to tell other members they are full of shee-at, are a douche bag, a dick, while others are not allowed anywhere near the same latitude?

How are the members to act as adults when Sister Mary Moderator is up front, slapping a ruler into her palm going, "I'm getting tired of this. Settle down class."

How can you even expect the membership-at-large to care, when entire discussions by the many, get vaporized because of the words of the few?

If you feel the membership is composed of children, and address them that way, no one can be surprised if that's what you get. If, OTOH, you believe there is some expectation of adult conduct here, then there needs to be even-handed, respectful treatment of the membership and what they write.

Lou Figueroa
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peteypooldude said:
If they banned instigators you'd be the 1st to go
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LOL

:bow-down::bow-down::bow-down:
JoeyA
 
IMAGINE: It could be an cool experiment.

Some of your posts are tongue in cheek but this one may have merit.

An experiment might be justifiable.
What would happen if a forum was created for PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS, moderated by PROFESSIONAL PLAYER(S)?

I think the previous experiments with pro players having their own particular sub forum was ineffective because one pro just doesn't have the time to stay glued to the sub-forum, answering the posts to the satisfaction of everyone. With multiple pros posting in one thread, many could share in getting their points across, possibly build a fan base and maybe even acquire a sponsor or two.

If the haters show up or even if the people who want to correct the pros for not "getting it right", they could be silenced by you, with the click of a button. You might be able to handle that kind of power. :wink: If you can keep from threatening people with physical violence who have attacked you with snide mean-spirited remarks, you should be able to handle that kind of power. ;-)

IMAGINE: A slew of pros, posting in a pool forum, not constantly needled and harangued by a murder of crows.

JoeyA

You could be the moderator and keep the pros in line as well as the instigators. ;-)

It might become the most popular forum of all time (next to the Main Forum). It could create a stream of new traffic for AZ Billiards.

Just sayin.....

JoeyA

CJ Wiley said:
I can't wait to start my new moderator position.

I'm going to have an influx of pro players posting continuously, round the clock.

Efren, Danny D. and Scott Frost will by posting about one pocket moves and strategies.

Earl Strickland and Mike D. will be posting on "the Mental Side" of pool

Allen Hopkins will be posting about how to run trade show operations.

Johnny Archer will be posting about his experiences with completion and team events.

Rodney Morris will be posting about how to maximize your power stroking techniques

Dennis Hatch will be posting about health and fitness and how it applies to pool

Sky Woodward will be helping everyone with their banking and bar table skills.

John Schmidt will be in charge of all straight pool threads.

Oh, yeah, and Rob Saez will be posting about his
secrets to creating (outside the insdustry) sponsorship packages.

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JoeyA said:
Some of your posts are tongue in cheek but this one may have merit.

An experiment might be justifiable.
What would happen if a forum was created for PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS, moderated by PROFESSIONAL PLAYER(S)?

I think the previous experiments with pro players having their own particular sub forum was ineffective because one pro just doesn't have the time to stay glued to the sub-forum, answering the posts to the satisfaction of everyone. With multiple pros posting in one thread, many could share in getting their points across, possibly build a fan base and maybe even acquire a sponsor or two.

If the haters show up or even if the people who want to correct the pros for not "getting it right", they could be silenced by you, with the click of a button. You might be able to handle that kind of power. :wink: If you can keep from threatening people with physical violence who have attacked you with snide mean-spirited remarks, you should be able to handle that kind of power. ;-)

IMAGINE: A slew of pros, posting in a pool forum, not constantly needled and harangued by a murder of crows.

JoeyA

You could be the moderator and keep the pros in line as well as the instigators. ;-)

It might become the most popular forum of all time (next to the Main Forum). It could create a stream of new traffic for AZ Billiards.

Just sayin.....

JoeyA
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And it might not. Just, er, you know, sayin'
 
JoeyA said:
Some of your posts are tongue in cheek but this one may have merit.

An experiment might be justifiable.
What would happen if a forum was created for PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS, moderated by PROFESSIONAL PLAYER(S)?

I think the previous experiments with pro players having their own particular sub forum was ineffective because one pro just doesn't have the time to stay glued to the sub-forum, answering the posts to the satisfaction of everyone. With multiple pros posting in one thread, many could share in getting their points across, possibly build a fan base and maybe even acquire a sponsor or two.

If the haters show up or even if the people who want to correct the pros for not "getting it right", they could be silenced by you, with the click of a button. You might be able to handle that kind of power. :wink: If you can keep from threatening people with physical violence who have attacked you with snide mean-spirited remarks, you should be able to handle that kind of power. ;-)

IMAGINE: A slew of pros, posting in a pool forum, not constantly needled and harangued by a murder of crows.

JoeyA

You could be the moderator and keep the pros in line as well as the instigators. ;-)

It might become the most popular forum of all time (next to the Main Forum). It could create a stream of new traffic for AZ Billiards.

Just sayin.....

JoeyA
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How about this JoeyA ---

Start a NEW website and NEW forum for the pros since none of them will ever post here. Every stream I listen to, some pro is berating AZ. Or you read about it on Facebook. Have this new forum moderated by the pros or someone that is a friend of the pros (Jay Helfert, JCIN). Pay the moderators to work the site. Then have a marketing team go out and get advertising for the site. Google ads too.

Take all the money and then have a tournament once a year or more.

It would take some organization but it could be done.
 
Kickin' Chicken said:
imho

I do like the 3 foul idea. if a member goes over the line, but not something egregious, they should go on one foul. Step over again, they go one 2 fouls and if it happens again, 3 fouls and they get a vacation.

Admins can determine how long fouls stay on a members account - maybe they can automatically be taken off with a month or two of good behavior.

Parameters for length of bans can be determined by admins.

The 'fouls' a member commits can be displayed under their avatar and user name, maybe below their rep in the form of three empty circles that get filled in with red as fouls are commited.

If conduct is deemed to be egregious then, of course, they can be given all 3 fouls for that behavior resulting in immediate ban.

People like myself, the true angels of azb, we will be given lifelong immunity, banhammer proof. :grin-square:

for the record, this is our virtual pool room and, as such, I expect there to be some good bad and ugliness, just like at our real pool rooms. I'm perfectly accepting of the rawness and grit, up to a point.

And just like in our real world pool halls, when someone goes way over the line with bad behavior and is shown the door, so should it be here in out e-pool room.

again, all imo.

best,
brian kc
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TATE said:
I've played on your tables. My opinion is if you played pool at a higher level, maybe you would understand where they need help.
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I know you're trying to say I don't know what a pool table should play like because I've never been a player, but you couldn't be more wrong.
 
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Kickin' Chicken said:
imho

I do like the 3 foul idea. if a member goes over the line, but not something egregious, they should go on one foul. Step over again, they go one 2 fouls and if it happens again, 3 fouls and they get a vacation.

Admins can determine how long fouls stay on a members account - maybe they can automatically be taken off with a month or two of good behavior.

Parameters for length of bans can be determined by admins.

The 'fouls' a member commits can be displayed under their avatar and user name, maybe below their rep in the form of three empty circles that get filled in with red as fouls are commited.

If conduct is deemed to be egregious then, of course, they can be given all 3 fouls for that behavior resulting in immediate ban.

People like myself, the true angels of azb, we will be given lifelong immunity, banhammer proof. :grin-square:

for the record, this is our virtual pool room and, as such, I expect there to be some good bad and ugliness, just like at our real pool rooms. I'm perfectly accepting of the rawness and grit, up to a point.

And just like in our real world pool halls, when someone goes way over the line with bad behavior and is shown the door, so should it be here in out e-pool room.

again, all imo.

best,
brian kc
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TATE said:
I've played on your tables. My opinion is if you played pool at a higher level, maybe you would understand where they need help.
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I know Tate, if only everyone knew what a pool table should play like, then there wouldn't be so many bad playing tables in pool rooms in this country.:thumbup:
 
TATE said:
I've played on your tables. My opinion is if you played pool at a higher level, maybe you would understand where they need help.
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I rebuilt and calibrated the rails and pockets on the Diamond 9ft ProAm SVB practices on when he's in Sioux Falls, and he sure don't have any complaints about how it plays....so is that enough credibility for you Tate....as to how the tables play that I work on, or maybe SVB don't know how a table should play either...right...LOL
 
realkingcobra said:
I rebuilt and calibrated the rails and pockets on the Diamond 9ft ProAm SVB practices on when he's in Sioux Falls, and he sure don't have any complaints about how it plays....so is that enough credibility for you Tate....as to how the tables play that I work on, or maybe SVB don't know how a table should play either...right...LOL
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No I'm actually just screwing around with you. Your tables play fine. I wish all tables played like the Diamond's with the newer tight pockets, then we would have some uniformity.

I do hope that you will be more polite to people in the future.
 
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TATE said:
No I'm actually just screwing around with you. Your tables play fine. I wish all tables played like the Diamond's with the newer tight pockets, then we would have some uniformity.

I do hope that you will be more polite to people in the future.
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I do have a lot of pride in all the tables I work on, even to a fault, which is why I guess I get upset when someone tries to downgrade my work, or blame me for something someone else does. Teaching someone how to work on pool tables is one thing, but no matter what, if those skills are not applied as they were taught, that does not reflect back on the instructor, it falls directly on the student. I've said many times, this line of work decides who makes it to the top level tier, and who just can't get there, or will never even come close. Out of the thousands of installers that work on pool tables on a regular basis, there's only a small hand full that can really be called table mechanics, and even less that have the skills it takes to be on the top tier. 99% of the customers out here have no idea what it takes to work on pool tables at the level that Mark and myself and a few others like Zach and such do, because to them, changing the cloth is 2 hat working on pool tables is all about, like when they tell me, they know 100 ' s of other table mechanics that do what I do. But when asked to show my level of work from all those other mechanics in pictures or some other way, they all fail to do so. Do you even have any idea as to how many pool rooms I've ran into that won't let me work on just one pool table in their pool room? Their reason is because if I work on just ONE pool table, and the customers realize how much better my table plays than all the rest of the tables in the room, then they'll have to let me redo ALL the tables in the location, such is the problem with Hardtimes in Sacramento, Mike is struggling with the decision to have me rebuild just one pool table in the tournament room, for fear of what does he do next when everyone can see the difference in playability from a the rest of the tables there...then he has a major problem, and a major expense to lay out the cash in order to fix all the rest of his tables, because of one pool table not playing like all the rest. People can say what.they want about my never working on the tables at Hardtimes, but they just don't know, like the fact that Mike even went so far as to give me a $300 deposit to get started rebuilding one pool table, work to start the next day, but over night got cold feet and changed his mind the next day, still unsure of what to do with letting me in the door, but people are going to believe what ever they want to believe I guess, it's not my job to change their beliefs. My job is to do what I do, make tables play at their absolute best, regardless of who worked on them last.
 
realkingcobra said:
People can say what.they want about my never working on the tables at Hardtimes, but they just don't know, like the fact that Mike even went so far as to give me a $300 deposit to get started rebuilding one pool table, work to start the next day, but over night got cold feet and changed his mind the next day, still unsure of what to do with letting me in the door, but people are going to believe what ever they want to believe I guess, it's not my job to change their beliefs. My job is to do what I do, make tables play at their absolute best, regardless of who worked on them last.
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I don't know or have any first-hand knowledge of that situation specifically but...

Maybe Hard Times doesn't want to wait around for you to finish one table a month and have to ask you again and again when you might be finished.

I don't think anyone questions your final product. Sure, some may underestimate how much work it takes to create that final product. I'll give you that. I think what most people complain about here is your attitude and your inability to commit to anything remotely resembling a schedule. You'll accept people's money up front but then get offended when they don't want to wait a completely indeterminate amount of time for you to do the work.

Being the best at what you do is great. Sharing what you know with others for free on an online forum is probably even magnanimous. But being defensive, possibly even hostile when people are frustrated with your loose interpretation of a business arrangement or delivery timeline is almost always going to result in negative feedback.

I don't think you're a bad person, Glen. I just think you spend a little too much time self-aggrandizing and sometimes take that a little too far by throwing others under the bus to make yourself look even better. I think you underestimate how that comes across to others. And if you didn't care what people thought of you then you wouldn't spend so much time being defensive on this forum and giving bad rep to anyone who says something negative about you.

But go ahead and pretend that I don't know anything and that my comments are either completely uninformed or some kind of blatant attack. That seems to have been working really well for you so far. I'll look forward to more negative reputation comments from you for doing nothing more than stating my first-hand experiences.
 
Floppage said:
I don't know or have any first-hand knowledge of that situation specifically but...

Maybe Hard Times doesn't want to wait around for you to finish one table a month and have to ask you again and again when you might be finished.

I don't think anyone questions your final product. Sure, some may underestimate how much work it takes to create that final product. I'll give you that. I think what most people complain about here is your attitude and your inability to commit to anything remotely resembling a schedule. You'll accept people's money up front but then get offended when they don't want to wait a completely indeterminate amount of time for you to do the work.

Being the best at what you do is great. Sharing what you know with others for free on an online forum is probably even magnanimous. But being defensive, possibly even hostile when people are frustrated with your loose interpretation of a business arrangement or delivery timeline is almost always going to result in negative feedback.

I don't think you're a bad person, Glen. I just think you spend a little too much time self-aggrandizing and sometimes take that a little too far by throwing others under the bus to make yourself look even better. I think you underestimate how that comes across to others. And if you didn't care what people thought of you then you wouldn't spend so much time being defensive on this forum and giving bad rep to anyone who says something negative about you.

But go ahead and pretend that I don't know anything and that my comments are either completely uninformed or some kind of blatant attack. That seems to have been working really well for you so far. I'll look forward to more negative reputation comments from you for doing nothing more than stating my first-hand experiences.
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Ok, let's put this into perspective. I go pick up an antique Brunswick 9ft pool table, 320 miles round trip for $650 with the intent of setting it up once it's in Chico once there, but the cushions are rock hard and you want 4" pockets on it when done. I tell you that has nothing to do with what you paid for, that work would be extra, and that I would normally charge $2,000 for that level of work, but I said I'd do it for $500 AFTER all the work at the Oasis was completed. Then, you get tired of waiting so you have someone else do what ever kind of job they did to change the cushions and assemble your table, in which I told you I'd assemble it as is with no extra work done to it, no problem. But no, you tell me that you want me to pay you back the $395 you paid someone else to do what ever they did to the cushions and assemble the table meaning to of the $650 I charged to pick up and deliver the table, with the offer to assemble it as is, you want me to give BACK $395 of that because you paid someone else to do something I told you on my part would be an extra $500, meaning I went and picked up the table, packed it 2 blocks to get it loaded, drove 320 miles round trip...for $255???? I wish all customers were just like you....stick to selling used cars, I'm sure you do real good with that.
 
realkingcobra said:
Ok, let's put this into perspective. I go pick up an antique Brunswick 9ft pool table, 320 miles round trip for $650 with the intent of setting it up once it's in Chico once there, but the cushions are rock hard and you want 4" pockets on it when done. I tell you that has nothing to do with what you paid for, that work would be extra, and that I would normally charge $2,000 for that level of work, but I said I'd do it for $500 AFTER all the work at the Oasis was completed. Then, you get tired of waiting so you have someone else do what ever kind of job they did to change the cushions and assemble your table, in which I told you I'd assemble it as is with no extra work done to it, no problem. But no, you tell me that you want me to pay you back the $395 you paid someone else to do what ever they did to the cushions and assemble the table meaning to of the $650 I charged to pick up and deliver the table, with the offer to assemble it as is, you want me to give BACK $395 of that because you paid someone else to do something I told you on my part would be an extra $500, meaning I went and picked up the table, packed it 2 blocks to get it loaded, drove 320 miles round trip...for $255???? I wish all customers were just like you....stick to selling used cars, I'm sure you do real good with that.
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OK, I know who you think I am and I'm not. I don't sell used cars. I also didn't make any comment about the deal you had with her. To be perfectly honest, that didn't involve me directly and I tried to stay out of that. I don't think bringing other people into our conversation is very professional but I should have expected that from you.

I also didn't specifically bring up the Oasis and was trying not to do that. The owner is way too classy to ever complain about you publicly so I was trying to be respectful about that.

However, since you brought it up...

A lot of people in Chico were excited when you arrived. The table you worked on at the Down Lo turned out amazing and for awhile you pretty much walked on water. You arrived at the very end of May and the expectation was that in a couple of months the 4 existing GC's would be redone a 5th added and possibly 6th. People were excited and the buzz was huge.

Then a couple of months passed and people wondered why the tables weren't done. Finally, one table was done. As promised it played exceptionally but what was left was curiosity about the others. "Don't worry, they'll all be done in a month or so..."

Time went by and the tables still weren't all done. You were still parked in the parking lot so we assumed you were hard at work on them but still not sure where they were at. "Don't worry, they'll be done by the end of October..."

October came and went and the tables still weren't done. So that's two tables in 5 months. The third and fourth followed over the coming weeks bringing the grand total to 4 tables redone over the course of SEVEN MONTHS!!!

During that time we all got to endure your ego on full display. I'm not going to bring up a lot of other events.

The point is that during that 7 month period you went from walking on water to being the guy we all hope we could just put up with long enough for you to finish the tables and leave.

And now you're gone. There is still a table unfinished. So that means it took 7 months to finish 4 tables and we have no idea if the 5th will get done or not.

I'm sure the owner of the Oasis has good faith that you will finish it. He's just that much of an optimist. He's a classy, sweet guy who still does walk on water for those of us who are regulars at the Oasis. I'm not sure as many others who have had interactions with you feel quite the same way.

I'm not sure what you were hoping would be your legacy after working in Chico. You arrived larger than life but left being the guy who took 7 months to finish 4 tables.

And again, I am not insulting your results. The tables play great. But you acting like we should feel blessed that you did them at all wears thin and your ego and attitude take some of the magic out of your work pretty fast.

I'm trying to be nice here, Glen. I'm not getting nasty or calling names. I'm being honest about my experiences with you. I'll even admit that I don't have all of the inside story. You act all indignant that everyone here doesn't just live in awe of you but you never take a moment to step outside of yourself and see how you come across to others. In my opinion, you should think a little bit about the way you carry yourself and how you do business. Otherwise you are going to continue being the guy people just hope they can tolerate long enough for you to finish the tables and leave.
 
Now there's the whole problem, you have no idea of all the other tables I worked on in the Chico area, you have no idea of the Diamond tables that were shipped to the Oasis for me to deliver, and you have no idea how bad the tables at the Oasis really were, and you have no idea the trips I've made to go and pick up those 2 extra 9ft tables to go in the Oasis....yet, you only see the surface of what I've done, not the behind the seens, even the conversations I've had with Stacy "the owner" about the side jobs I've done, some of them for his friends....yet, with your outside observation of my time there at the Oasis, you've only seen what I haven't done, and NOT what I have....great job....LOL
 
Floppage said:
OK, I know who you think I am and I'm not. I don't sell used cars. I also didn't make any comment about the deal you had with her. To be perfectly honest, that didn't involve me directly and I tried to stay out of that. I don't think bringing other people into our conversation is very professional but I should have expected that from you.

I also didn't specifically bring up the Oasis and was trying not to do that. The owner is way too classy to ever complain about you publicly so I was trying to be respectful about that.

However, since you brought it up...

A lot of people in Chico were excited when you arrived. The table you worked on at the Down Lo turned out amazing and for awhile you pretty much walked on water. You arrived at the very end of May and the expectation was that in a couple of months the 4 existing GC's would be redone a 5th added and possibly 6th. People were excited and the buzz was huge.

Then a couple of months passed and people wondered why the tables weren't done. Finally, one table was done. As promised it played exceptionally but what was left was curiosity about the others. "Don't worry, they'll all be done in a month or so..."

Time went by and the tables still weren't all done. You were still parked in the parking lot so we assumed you were hard at work on them but still not sure where they were at. "Don't worry, they'll be done by the end of October..."

October came and went and the tables still weren't done. So that's two tables in 5 months. The third and fourth followed over the coming weeks bringing the grand total to 4 tables redone over the course of SEVEN MONTHS!!!

During that time we all got to endure your ego on full display. I'm not going to bring up a lot of other events.

The point is that during that 7 month period you went from walking on water to being the guy we all hope we could just put up with long enough for you to finish the tables and leave.

And now you're gone. There is still a table unfinished. So that means it took 7 months to finish 4 tables and we have no idea if the 5th will get done or not.

I'm sure the owner of the Oasis has good faith that you will finish it. He's just that much of an optimist. He's a classy, sweet guy who still does walk on water for those of us who are regulars at the Oasis. I'm not sure as many others who have had interactions with you feel quite the same way.

I'm not sure what you were hoping would be your legacy after working in Chico. You arrived larger than life but left being the guy who took 7 months to finish 4 tables.

And again, I am not insulting your results. The tables play great. But you acting like we should feel blessed that you did them at all wears thin and your ego and attitude take some of the magic out of your work pretty fast.

I'm trying to be nice here, Glen. I'm not getting nasty or calling names. I'm being honest about my experiences with you. I'll even admit that I don't have all of the inside story. You act all indignant that everyone here doesn't just live in awe of you but you never take a moment to step outside of yourself and see how you come across to others. In my opinion, you should think a little bit about the way you carry yourself and how you do business. Otherwise you are going to continue being the guy people just hope they can tolerate long enough for you to finish the tables and leave.
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The hardest jobs to do, are always made easy by those that don't do them!!!
 
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