Integrity, the missing ingredient .

What I do see is a game that has evolved to the point where everybody is good enough to run out and the break has become the most important shot of every match. .

And why is that do you think? I believe it to be more a product of playing conditions than anything. Fast cloth took away the need to really stroke the ball. Pro pool today, almost all I see are little bunt strokes and thats all thats needed. Slower, tougher tables make the game more difficult for everyone, pros included.
Chuck
 
Mr. Laflamme,

I admire your integrity & your efforts.

Mr. Wiley is correct in what the competitions should be, especially at the 'professional' level.

You, are at least trying to take a step in that direction. The game needs continuity & that means it needs a true governing body with rules that if not in play do not warrant or garner sanctioning by the governing body.

Who governs Golf in America?


The PGA of America, Professional GOLFERS ASSOCIATION of America.

http://www.pga.com/pga-america

Experts in the Game and Business of Golf

Founded in 1916, The PGA of America is the largest working sports organization in the world, comprised of more than 27,000 dedicated men and women promoting the game of golf to everyone, everywhere.

http://www.pga.com/pga-america

The Golf 'Professionals' of 1916 took matters into there own hands. Look what they & subsequent MEMBERS did with what they started.

It did not happen without some SACRIFICE.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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Here's an idea:

Play a game that can't be won with one slop shot.
Play a game that doesn't allow " luck " to win over skill.
In other words , screw 9ball.

Make it a call shot game or maybe even turn it into 8.1 ( a faster version of 14.1)

Why hand a title to someone who is luckier but less skilled?
It doesn't make sense.
 
Here's an idea:

Play a game that can't be won with one slop shot.
Play a game that doesn't allow " luck " to win over skill.
In other words , screw 9ball.

Make it a call shot game or maybe even turn it into 8.1 ( a faster version of 14.1)

Why hand a title to someone who is luckier but less skilled?
It doesn't make sense.

Mr. Bond,

You should speak with Paul Schofield of Gold Crown Billiards in Erie, PA. Must be great minds think alike!

Lyn
 
I'm not a nine-ball player, but I'll make two suggestions.

1. Whoever shoots first after the break (either the breaker if he makes a ball or the non-breaker if a ball is not made after the break) MUST PUSH OUT. I made that suggestion years ago independently and then learned that the Accu-Stats guys, I think, employ a similar rule in some of their informal tournaments.

2. Rack ten balls. After the balls are broken, remove the ten ball. Now continue as in nine ball.

Will either of these suggestions help?
 
Thank you all for the lucid and well thought out responses.

CJWiley, I don't want to split hairs, but you said,"To have tournaments without referees is a crime worse than cheating, especially in the semi-finals and finals."

Which implies that their should be referees the entire tournament, especially the semi finals and finals. Since a referee can only preside at one table at a time, the end result is the need for a ref at every table.

If you had said "at least" instead of "especially", I would have understood you better.

As far as the other things you mention, I could not agree more about green fees and fake added money and other shifty tactics of promotion.


"Are there rules in place to stop the players from touching the balls with their hands? Are there player's meeting to discuss these rules and guidelines? Is there communication directly to the players, or just a "sneak attack" on this forum directed at the players?

If you want to match me point by point, and take the position that the players are to blame, then it's your prerogative......just be clear that I know a thing or two about promoting tournaments and I'll list many specific things that's being done now that enhances promoters, at the expense of the players."

You are attributing attitudes and opinions to me that I have not expressed. As far as ""real eyes" that three are pointing back" I said players are partially at fault. I clearly stated that I believe the only ones who can fix things are promoters, td's and the governing bodies that sanction rules.

You seem like a good guy and I have no doubt you know what you are talking about in terms of promoting and running tournaments. Before I even started this thread I had read some of your posts, visited your website and did some googling to learn more about what you have accomplished. I am extremely interested in learning more about what you were trying to accomplish with the Million Dollar Challenge and what effect Earl running the 11 had on everything. I plan on buying the DVD(the words "directed by Mary Avina" closed the deal ;) )

All that said, please read what I have written as carefully as I have read what you have written. I would greatly appreciate it.

I am not trying to be a smart ass or anything like that and I hope you understand that it is not personal.
***********************************************************************************************
As far as if it is really necessary for me to insult players integrity(this is not directed at anything you said, CJWiley), yes it is. What makes it necessary is how dangerous the attitude of "if you have a way to get ahead and you don't use it, you are a fool" really is. When I see people who call it what it is, cheating, being labeled whiners, it is clear that their is a significant problem.

If I don't make a big deal out of it, then who will? This looking the other way thing is what got us here. It all starts with the looking the other way on things like dumping games, bad sportsmanship, not speaking up when a "player" is being a con man or a thief. There is a pervasive attitude that these things are desirable in the world of pool, but they are not. I don't mind sharing an unpopular opinion one bit. It needs to be said.
 
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Brian,

Nice post. Sent you a greenie. Independent thought always brings out the negative responses.

Lyn
 
I read the link you posted, CJWiley. It was informative. Prior to the most recent tournament I was involved with, I sat and wrote down modifications to the BCA rules for the tournament to be played by.

The biggest change was to eliminate warnings for two specific fouls. I had almost added touching your opponents rack to those two, but did not, thinking that I might be going a little overboard with mandatory penalties.

I also read the link you posted DTL. A great idea, but it seems to point out what many have come to think, namely that the game of 9 ball itself has over lived it's usefulness and is now part of the problem.

Sure would be nice to have a game that actually produces content that would be worthy of a highlight reel. Something that challenges the players with more than position and safety play(not to mention rack-rigging). Maybe something that has to do with pocket billiards!
 
Important Disclaimer
It is not my intention to ridicule, shame, blame, insult, belittle or demean anyone in particular with this thread.


The current controversy surrounding racking in 9 Ball has shown a very disheartening view into the minds of many pool players.

I have been reading up on this subject on the azbilliards forums,looking for a solution,because I am a TD and the current state of affairs makes running a tournament with integrity extremely difficult. A quick fix for now would seem to be magic rack,9 on the spot, racking done by a designated neutral party, inspecting the rack permitted, but players cannot request a re-rack.

What is so troubling is that many people seem to think cheating is acceptable, even admirable.

I will clarify exactly what I mean by cheating.


(A) If, while racking the balls for yourself, you intentionally manipulate the balls to create gaps to gain a competitive advantage breaking, you are cheating. Period.

(B) Studying a rack to spot gaps or any other information that can be used to gain a competitive advantage breaking is legal, even if you racked them yourself, provided you have not violated (A).


Just because many players currently violate (A), does not mean that players are not cheating, instead it just means that there is lots of cheating going on. This, contrary to what many think, is not an admirable characteristic for a sport to have.

Of course, the player who maintains their integrity is going to be at a serious disadvantage when playing someone who does not. This problem forms the basis for the slippery slope we are currently sliding down out of control, gaining speed every second. The end result is that everyone will be forced to cheat as well, if they want to have a chance. In the end, players will try to call it evolution of the game, a necessity or some other drivel, when in fact it is just cheating, plain and simple.

Obviously, the rules need improvement or outright change. Even so, saying don't hate the player, hate the game is in essence removing any requirement that players have any integrity or class.

It is too late in the game for individual players to resist the tide. Although this problem partially originated with players, I think the only ones who can change it are the people who run tournaments, along with the ruling bodies that sanction rules. Unfortunately, both have remained silent, for the most part.

Opinions in support, to the contrary or anywhere in between are welcome, but please think your posts all the way through and be civil.

I am not trying to get feedback on whether we should use magic racks, rack your own, loser racks, 9 ball or 1 ball on the spot, winner breaks/alternate breaks, Europeans vs. American methods, nor looking to hear any criticism about any specific player. There has already been many threads containing all the above and they have accomplished nothing, but to prove what a disorganized mess pool is.

Actually, more than anything, I posted this because I will not turn the other way now that I am fully aware of the magnitude of this problem, as a TD this is my way of shouldering the responsibility to deal with this problem and saying that the buck stops here. I will not have such a divisive issue take away from any future event I am involved in.

Again, I stress that this post is not intended for anyone in particular, despite what some may think. The few players I have spoken with about this issue, I have a great deal of respect for and I do understand that making a living playing pool is no easy task. I have no doubt that everyone would appreciate not having to deal with this issue any longer. I certainly do not care to single out players in any tournament I run, in fact I despise having to do so.

I agree with you, you are going to grow old waiting for the players to change this situation around. As long as they are getting away with it this situation is going to get worse and worse until every C player on the planet is doing this. Your proposed solution is pretty good. Magic rack, neutral racker, no re-racks. It is a sad state of affairs that there is such a lack of integrity in pool, but I guess it can be found in any sport to a degree. A strong governing body and swift and decisive punishments for cheating is what is needed in matters like these. Slaps on the wrist won't do the trick.

As long as players are racking for each other and touching the cueball etc shenanigans are going to happen. There are a million tricks: Forming gaps between balls, turning the balls,slightly turning the rack and even: putting teflon on the cueball. Yes, believe it or not I've watched pro players put the cue ball in their pants pocket and rubbing it. Guess whats in that fabric?
 
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Brian

I applaud you for standing up for ethical behavior and common decency. You're right, it's badly needed in our world, and I'm not talking about just pool!

Several years ago, too many for me to admit to :D, I ended up running a local weekly 9 ball tournament. The previous guy fell out of the picture and I enjoyed playing in it, so I figured I'd just run it myself.

The room closed at midnight, by local law, and often the tournament wasn't over by then. Sometimes we had to split, and sometimes they let just the TD and the players stay in and locked everyone else out. When I took over, I decided that I needed the tournament to start on time, and run quickly so we could be done by midnight. The first thing I did was to enforce the 7:00pm starting time. The very first week, a couple of players showed up at 7:10 and wanted in. I told them no. They asked to be allowed to take one of the "bye's", and I said "no, the tournament starts at 7:00. See you next week before 7:00". They left rather upset at me. The very next week, I received a call to the bar at about 6:45. It was one of those 2 same players on the phone asking me to put him in the tournament. I said "sure, just pay your entry fee and I'll add you to the players list." Of course he wasn't there and couldn't pay. I suggested he get someone there he new to put it in for him, and he did. He then asked if I would not put him up first because we was running late. I told him that the draw is the draw and if he was called up and wasn't there that he would forfeit and go to the one loss side. Needless to say, he was again upset with me.

However, after 2 or 3 weeks, everyone was following the rules and having a good time. The tournaments were over when they were supposed to be, and even the ones who didn't like it at first grew to like it very much.

The moral to the story is that if you tell them what to expect and then strongly enforce it without being ugly about it, they will very quickly conform and usually be happy about it. The enforcement and consistency is paramount.

I for one think that we should all call fouls and rules infractions on ourselves. This old thing were a "referee" can't make a call unless he was asked to do so is just stupid. If a referee sees a person commit an infraction, he should call it. Period! If we all expected that someone might be watching, then we'd all be more likely to call things on ourselves.

Good luck with your endeavors. Remember, clearly set the expectations, enforce them strongly but politely, and be consistent.


Royce
 
Aren't there stats put up all the time that shows the breaker really doesn't have that big of an advantage?
 
I know some people love a good safety game. For me, I rather see less effort on changing break rules and more effort stopping ducking and dodging. I want to see offense. Pros getting out from everywhere or at least forced to try. I want to see banks and jump shots. I say you get one miss (it can be on purpose) and after that, you miss its ball in hand anywhere. Has anyone played in an honest effort league? Laughable
 
These are valid points.

To have tournaments without referees is a crime worse than cheating, especially in the semi-finals and finals.

I'm not saying it's okay to manipulate the rack, if anyone thinks that, please check out this link ----->RACKING LINK

Would Willie Mosconi have complained about racking his own balls, with no referee? LMAO - he would have turned over the table, harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out of the building......then he would have got really mad. ;)

God forbid anyone expecting a pro pool player to govern himself like a PGA pro does ,

1
 
Has anyone played in an honest effort league?

I know some people love a good safety game. For me, I rather see less effort on changing break rules and more effort stopping ducking and dodging. I want to see offense. Pros getting out from everywhere or at least forced to try. I want to see banks and jump shots. I say you get one miss (it can be on purpose) and after that, you miss its ball in hand anywhere. Has anyone played in an honest effort league? Laughable

Yeah, there are no "band-aids" that will fix pool, there needs to be major surgery. imho

We have the game that brings out all the best qualities in pool. i mentioned it before and it's been accepted at the next level. We will be putting up a substantial amount of money to promote it, and put it on a major network. Of course it will take a few months to get to that point, I'm just excited that it made it past the "critical stage" with the investors.

Play Well, THE game is the teacher.
 
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