Has anybody ever tried to play with- or make a tip like this?

[Colin Colenso]

I have one on my break cue. No issues & I use low outside & inside on many of my not head on breaks.

I think it makes perfect sense for those that play trying to hit center CB for most of their shots.

I understand what Colin is saying but I think that what he's talking about might only apply for slight english if one uses an incorrect perception. I think once one get's past say 4 mm of offset it plays normally. At least that seems to be what I get out of mine, but like Dennis Miller, I could be wrong.

I can see where it might play 'mushy' or 'sticky' if done on a soft tip. I did it to my hard break tip only.

Best 2 You & All.

Hi Rick,

I'm guessing at 4mm offset, the contact point is pretty much where it normally is, between tip and CB, unless the concave section is very large.

A useful thought experiment is a 20mm diameter perfectly flat tip. If one aims to CCB but accidentally misses the aim point on the CB by 10mm, with a 10" (254mm) bridge, the CB will go close to 2.5 degrees from the original alignment. With a rounded tip, bridging within a couple of inches of the effective pivot point, such a stroke error will rarely send the CB more than 0.5 degrees off the original path... and far less if one is familiar with their effective pivot point for such a shot.

imho, it's removing a somewhat serendipitous aspect of shooting accuracy, being the offset direction (pivot) - squirt = near zero, natural cancellation tendency.

Note: Many amateur players play at lower shot speeds and bridge shorter than the effective pivot point for many of their shots. They tend to pivot intuitively such that left pivot moves a CB left of their pre-alignment and vice-versa. They usually pivot to the outside, allowing them to aim thick and swipe to cut, gaining assistance from outside english throw to thin the cut as required.

Probably the main reason amateurs hate power shots is that it eliminates the effectiveness of this peri-stroke adjustment method as their effective pivot point is shortened to nearer their bridge length, and outside throw turning has a lesser effect at higher speeds.

This method of understanding the goings on of pre-alignment and effective alignment via the stroke, take us to the central canard, or cause of misunderstanding in the original video. That misunderstanding is based on the wrong assumption that most potting errors are due to poor stroking, when in fact they are mostly due to poor pre-alignment. I suspect the inventor has suffered the delusion of worrying less about his stroke as a result of his concave tip adjustment and has made improvements in his pre-alignment as a result. For as I've explained already, a concave tip will increase the change of CB angle due to offset striking more significantly in most situations than a normal rounded tip.

Colin

 

[fastone371]

Look at the chalk mark on the CB after breaking.
Dime shaped tips on your break cue flatten a lot.
.

Are you sure that large blue mark on the QB after breaking with a freshly chalked tip is all tip contact? I think part of it is tip contact and the rest at the edges is chalk powder flying off of the tip at contact time. You can often see a chalk powder path on the table if you break from same area a few times in a row even if your tip does not touch the table. I have a hard time believing that your tip not only completely flattens out but then also becomes slightly con-caved to leave that mark on the QB.

 

[ceebee]

Here is a drawing I did when researching break cue tips. These are presented as estimates, because there are many, many variables to be considered.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi Rick,

I'm guessing at 4mm offset, the contact point is pretty much where it normally is, between tip and CB, unless the concave section is very large.

A useful thought experiment is a 20mm diameter perfectly flat tip. If one aims to CCB but accidentally misses the aim point on the CB by 10mm, with a 10" (254mm) bridge, the CB will go close to 2.5 degrees from the original alignment. With a rounded tip, bridging within a couple of inches of the effective pivot point, such a stroke error will rarely send the CB more than 0.5 degrees off the original path... and far less if one is familiar with their effective pivot point for such a shot.

imho, it's removing a somewhat serendipitous aspect of shooting accuracy, being the offset direction (pivot) - squirt = near zero, natural cancellation tendency.

Note: Many amateur players play at lower shot speeds and bridge shorter than the effective pivot point for many of their shots. They tend to pivot intuitively such that left pivot moves a CB left of their pre-alignment and vice-versa. They usually pivot to the outside, allowing them to aim thick and swipe to cut, gaining assistance from outside english throw to thin the cut as required.

Probably the main reason amateurs hate power shots is that it eliminates the effectiveness of this peri-stroke adjustment method as their effective pivot point is shortened to nearer their bridge length, and outside throw turning has a lesser effect at higher speeds.

This method of understanding the goings on of pre-alignment and effective alignment via the stroke, take us to the central canard, or cause of misunderstanding in the original video. That misunderstanding is based on the wrong assumption that most potting errors are due to poor stroking, when in fact they are mostly due to poor pre-alignment. I suspect the inventor has suffered the delusion of worrying less about his stroke as a result of his concave tip adjustment and has made improvements in his pre-alignment as a result. For as I've explained already, a concave tip will increase the change of CB angle due to offset striking more significantly in most situations than a normal rounded tip.

Colin

With all due respect Colin, I think your 10mm offset premise & the resulting comparisons & conclusions are misplaced.

With ALL other things being equal, I see a domed tip with the offset striking the ball off center & inducing squirt & spin.

With ALL other things being equal, I see the 'divot' tip with the offset striking the ball at center & inducing only a minimal amount if any real significant squirt & spin. That is, if the offset is not in an amount to go past the 'ridge' of the 'divot'. Any squirt or spin would be due to the center of gravity of the cue not being in line with the point of contact. If the offset is of an amount to go past the 'ridge', then it acts like a normal tip.

I certainly see that result with significant less negative effect than if the same exact stroke were made with the same offset & a dime or nickel radius tip.

We're not really talking about at concave tip here. That could only come into play if the offset were small enough that the 'ridge' of the 'divot' on the same side as the offset were to make contact & I don't really see any concave effect coming into play as the ridge is more like a mini domed tip & I can see the effect being almost exactly the same as if a dome tip struck the ball in that place.

If I failed to see &/or understand something in your explanation I'm sorry & apologize.

Best to You & ALL.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I want my break tip dime-shaped, like my playing cue.
...this focuses the energy....flat-shaped dissipates it.

I wonder about this. Calling Dr. Dave, Dr. Dave, Dr. Dave...

pj
chgo

 

[iusedtoberich]

Man, we all need to stop this crap. None of this matters. Get on the table and practice or gamble your brains out. That's it. All this stuff about tip shape and aiming systems and cue length extensions and tip brands is all meaningless.

 

[chefjeff]

Man, we all need to stop this crap. None of this matters. Get on the table and practice or gamble your brains out. That's it. All this stuff about tip shape and aiming systems and cue length extensions and tip brands is all meaningless.

Too late....we've all had holes drilled into our heads and we can't help it.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Colin Colenso]

With all due respect Colin, I think your 10mm offset premise & the resulting comparisons & conclusions are misplaced.

With ALL other things being equal, I see a domed tip with the offset striking the ball off center & inducing squirt & spin.

With ALL other things being equal, I see the 'divot' tip with the offset striking the ball at center & inducing only a minimal amount if any real significant squirt & spin. That is, if the offset is not in an amount to go past the 'ridge' of the 'divot'. Any squirt or spin would be due to the center of gravity of the cue not being in line with the point of contact. If the offset is of an amount to go past the 'ridge', then it acts like a normal tip.

I certainly see that result with significant less negative effect than if the same exact stroke were made with the same offset & a dime or nickel radius tip.

We're not really talking about at concave tip here. That could only come into play if the offset were small enough that the 'ridge' of the 'divot' on the same side as the offset were to make contact & I don't really see any concave effect coming into play as the ridge is more like a mini domed tip & I can see the effect being almost exactly the same as if a dome tip struck the ball in that place.

If I failed to see &/or understand something in your explanation I'm sorry & apologize.

Best to You & ALL.

Hi Rick,
You're kinda saying what I said. In that a divot or concave tip could hit center of CB, relative to the bridge point. This center though, won't accord to the line of cue movement, which will push in a direction that passes to the side of actual CCB. It gets complex to describe.

And yes, this reduces squirt, but squirt cancels out non-intended offset hitting.

The CB does not take its direction from center of mass of the cue, but rather from the direction of tip movement. But if this tip movement is not along the line of contact point on CB to actual CCB, then there is squirt.

It's even possible that an extremely concave tip can be pivoted to the right and actually strike the CB left of the cue line. The same can be achieve with a wide flat tip even. Such that the CB would squirt right from a right pivot, instead of left as we are familiar with. This would exaggerate stroking errors even more.

Hope that helps clarify what I'm explaining regarding the convex tip increasing stroke errors, rather than reducing them.

Colin

Edit: I'm attaching an image of a wide flat tip with a very short pivot showing a right pivot can hit left of center which would also squirt the CB further right even than the right side error the unintentional pivot offset hitting would create.

 

[Johnnyt]

You guys seriously want to drill a hole in the center of your tips? I want whatever you are smoking

When I drilled one of my tips 30+ years ago, I'm sure there was some weed involved. :thumbup: Johnnyt

 

[Tony_in_MD]

The idea is not new. Anyone remember the tip shape on Richard Chens X breaker cues?

Same thing, questionable results.

 

[Fuji-whopper]

I do believe I saw someone like John Barton with a tip like this years ago at SBE I think, was the same concept for sure with the cue ball basically "sitting" in a dimple when struck with center ball. Not sure whatever became of it, but I recall this concept very clearly since I was working for Predator at the time and always had my eyes open for people with "new ideas".....just not sure the person/ place/ result unfortunately.



Neil

 

[dr_dave]

... I want my break tip dime-shaped, like my playing cue.
...this focuses the energy....flat-shaped dissipates it.

I wonder about this. Calling Dr. Dave, Dr. Dave, Dr. Dave...

I have not tested this, but I can't imagine there would be a significant difference in break results with changes in tip curvature (for a near-center-ball hit). A flatter tip will results in a slightly larger contact area, which will result is slightly smaller forces over a larger area, by the total impulse and speed delivered to the CB should be the same. It is possible that the tip material will have some nonlinear effects, where the effective coefficient of restitution (AKA tip efficiency) will be different at different amounts of force and compression, but I don't think this effect would be significant, especially at break speeds.

Short answer: I don't think tip curvature would have a noticeable effect on a near-center-ball hit break shots.

For those interested, the following resource page (and supporting links) covers in detail many of the topics covered in this thread:

cue tip size and shape effects

FYI to those who haven't looked at this page in a while, I recently improved it and added stuff to it.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi Rick,
You're kinda saying what I said. In that a divot or concave tip could hit center of CB, relative to the bridge point. This center though, won't accord to the line of cue movement, which will push in a direction that passes to the side of actual CCB. It gets complex to describe.

And yes, this reduces squirt, but squirt cancels out non-intended offset hitting.

The CB does not take its direction from center of mass of the cue, but rather from the direction of tip movement. But if this tip movement is not along the line of contact point on CB to actual CCB, then there is squirt.

It's even possible that an extremely concave tip can be pivoted to the right and actually strike the CB left of the cue line. The same can be achieve with a wide flat tip even. Such that the CB would squirt right from a right pivot, instead of left as we are familiar with. This would exaggerate stroking errors even more.

Hope that helps clarify what I'm explaining regarding the convex tip increasing stroke errors, rather than reducing them.

Colin

Edit: I'm attaching an image of a wide flat tip with a very short pivot showing a right pivot can hit left of center which would also squirt the CB further right even than the right side error the unintentional pivot offset hitting would create.

Hi Colin,

I understood.

What I was saying was that in the actual small amounts & not exaggerated amounts as in your diagram the method has merit.

If the tip is flat for 6 mm with a 3 or 4 mm 'divot' cut in & then the rest of the perimeter has a slight radius the method has merit.

I've had no ill effects with the one I made on my break cue.

Best Wishes to Ya for this Season.
Rick

 

[pt109]

I have not tested this, but I can't imagine there would be a significant difference in break results with changes in tip curvature (for a near-center-ball hit). A flatter tip will results in a slightly larger contact area, which will result is slightly smaller forces over a larger area, by the total impulse and speed delivered to the CB should be the same. It is possible that the tip material will have some nonlinear effects, where the effective coefficient of restitution (AKA tip efficiency) will be different at different amounts of force and compression, but I don't think this effect would be significant, especially at break speeds.

Short answer: I don't think tip curvature would have a noticeable effect on a near-center-ball hit break shots.

For those interested, the following resource page (and supporting links) covers in detail many of the topics covered in this thread:

cue tip size and shape effects

FYI to those who haven't looked at this page in a while, I recently improved it and added stuff to it.

Enjoy,
Dave

My pool knowledge tends to be mostly empirical, Doc....but my experience says that if
a man lent me a break cue with a flat tip, I might suspect he's betting against me.

I have an old friend who was an amazing physical specimen...and he could fight.
Being French and Jewish growing up in a town near the Quebec/Ontario border, he got
in a lot of them.
If he felt a man couldn't take his punch without possibly dying, he would knock them out
with a slap....he felt any reasonably fit person could survive a slap.

A slap is what I feel a flat tip delivers to the cue ball.....
...where's Iron Willie when we need him?

 

[ENGLISH!]

My pool knowledge tends to be mostly empirical, Doc....but my experience says that if
a man lent me a break cue with a flat tip, I might suspect he's betting against me.

I have an old friend who was an amazing physical specimen...and he could fight.
Being French and Jewish growing up in a town near the Quebec/Ontario border, he got
in a lot of them.
If he felt a man couldn't take his punch without possibly dying, he would knock them out
with a slap....he felt any reasonably fit person could survive a slap.

A slap is what I feel a flat tip delivers to the cue ball...
...where's Iron Willie when we need him?

If you where trying to hit a steel cannon ball as far as you could along the ground but also hit it as straight as possible would you use a sledge hammer or a pickax if they both had the same length & weight?

If allowed would you NOT use a square bat to meet the ball so as to increase the odds of not fouling it off?

The ball is round & that is what gets the focus on that one point of the circumference of the ball.

Try hitting a golf ball with another ball at the end of the golf shaft.

Now I say if there is a difference then there will be a difference but sometimes compromise certainly seems to be in order as...

Human beings are not that most efficient at being perfect, especially when trying to be very precise at high speed.

Best Wishes to You & ALL During This Season.

 

[pt109]

If you where trying to hit a steel cannon ball as far as you could along the ground but also hit it as straight as possible would you use a sledge hammer or a pickax if they both had the same length & weight?

If allowed would you NOT use a square bat to meet the ball so as to increase the odds of not fouling it off?

The ball is round & that is what gets the focus on that one point of the circumference of the ball.

Try hitting a golf ball with another ball at the end of the golf shaft.

Now I say if there is a difference then there will be a difference but sometimes compromise certainly seems to be in order as...

Human beings are not that most efficient at being perfect, especially when trying to be very precise at high speed.

Best Wishes to You & ALL During This Season.

When I play pool, I'm not looking for consistency.....I'm looking for something GREAT.
....one finds that so many of the failures to be great are better than other's efforts to be
consistent....(which is usually being content with mediocrity )

I can do some of those fancy power spin shots that people like to see...
....sometimes a person will hand me their cue and ask to see them.....
....the first thing I do is look at the tip....if it's flat, I hand it back....I can't do it with a flat tip.

You know, English, I also have some things to say about aiming....
...but it seems like opening Pandora's box to do that on AZ....

And you have an un-PC Merry Christmas also, sir

 

[dr_dave]

My pool knowledge tends to be mostly empirical, Doc....but my experience says that if a man lent me a break cue with a flat tip, I might suspect he's betting against me.

I would be suspicious too. I don't think I've ever seen a flat tip on a break cue.

A guy in my league uses a nearly flat tip on his playing cue, and he swears by it. I've tried to convince him that it would be better to round the tip, but he's convinced that it helps him. I don't try to change his mind anymore ... especially since he's on an opposing team.

Regards,
Dave

 

[pt109]

Look at the chalk mark on the CB after breaking.
Dime shaped tips on your break cue flatten a lot.
.

For sure they tend to flatten, even though I break with a HARD dime-shaped tip.

Flat-shaped tips give on the break also....I would imagine the shape would be concave...
....I don't want my break tip wrapping around the cue ball.

 

[ceebee]

My Break Cue has smaller crown on the tip. The diameter would be about 1.5 inches, the radius is about 0.75 inches. If I happen to have a slight off center hit, it is more forgiving (my opinion).

It is a hard leather tip (loves chalk). It is a custom cue by Auerbach Custom Cues, of Tulsa. Works for me.

 

[ENGLISH!]

When I play pool, I'm not looking for consistency.....I'm looking for something GREAT.
....one finds that so many of the failures to be great are better than other's efforts to be
consistent....(which is usually being content with mediocrity )

I can do some of those fancy power spin shots that people like to see...
....sometimes a person will hand me their cue and ask to see them.....
....the first thing I do is look at the tip....if it's flat, I hand it back....I can't do it with a flat tip.

You know, English, I also have some things to say about aiming....
...but it seems like opening Pandora's box to do that on AZ....

And you have an un-PC Merry Christmas also, sir

I hear you, but I was not talking about 'consistency' per say nor mediocrity.

In Golf, one has a different club for all of the different shots, but if made to play with just one club, many pros would choose a 7 or 6 iron.

I've said that if the shot clock would not be prohibitive I could see some young guy using different cues for different shots.

But until then, compromise of some type seems to be in play & perhaps in order.

You know... when you go off center past a certain amount the 'end' of the flat tip sort of has a 'point' on it.:wink:

Best 2 Ya & MERRY CHRISTMAS to YOU TOO!

PS If you have anything about aiming stuck in your craw I take PMs.