There seems to be a consensus.
Instructor or pro player?
- Thread starter kaznj
- Start date
In on education.
Yes. It appears that most people understand that some of the best lessons you can ever learn aren't typically given by the best performers, but by the best teachers.
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mid-level seems to make the best instructors
For some reason it seems that the mid-level players in all sports make the best instructors. Exceptions but as a general rule world champions make lousy instructors. It's a different skill set and pretty rare for the same person to have both skill sets, especially at the same time period in their life.
It must be said, there are lousy instructors too. People that can't run an rack and have never ran a rack decide they are instructors, a way to make a quick buck around the bar or pool hall.
Instructors seem to be the best route for almost everyone. If your game is to the point you can win regional events you might benefit from some time with a top player, you are definitely ready for the highest level instructors.
In this time of Covid 19 I was considering buying some DVD's from a top instructor. I spent some time looking at what he has on youtube and I realized that we might be a poor fit. Different philosophies. He said some things I pretty strongly disagreed with. After fifty years around a pool table we have different perspectives. His certainly work but I'm not prepared to make core changes and start from scratch again. I'll stick with an instructor that I click with on all levels that has a history of turning out champions.
That is one key, find an instructor that you can work well with, player or full time instructor. If you are banging heads with each other or just conflicted in your mind about what they are saying, you aren't going to get as much as you should out of the instruction.
Hu
For some reason it seems that the mid-level players in all sports make the best instructors. Exceptions but as a general rule world champions make lousy instructors. It's a different skill set and pretty rare for the same person to have both skill sets, especially at the same time period in their life.
It must be said, there are lousy instructors too. People that can't run an rack and have never ran a rack decide they are instructors, a way to make a quick buck around the bar or pool hall.
Instructors seem to be the best route for almost everyone. If your game is to the point you can win regional events you might benefit from some time with a top player, you are definitely ready for the highest level instructors.
In this time of Covid 19 I was considering buying some DVD's from a top instructor. I spent some time looking at what he has on youtube and I realized that we might be a poor fit. Different philosophies. He said some things I pretty strongly disagreed with. After fifty years around a pool table we have different perspectives. His certainly work but I'm not prepared to make core changes and start from scratch again. I'll stick with an instructor that I click with on all levels that has a history of turning out champions.
That is one key, find an instructor that you can work well with, player or full time instructor. If you are banging heads with each other or just conflicted in your mind about what they are saying, you aren't going to get as much as you should out of the instruction.
Hu
You know, I'm a nobody around here and I know in this thread I'm not supposed to mention names, but Patrick Johnson (hope he's well) has had the best over all rhetoric in my opinion. In a close but different universe I'd consider this thread to be one huge troll thread because if everyone's opinion on this game is different, just how many differences exist amongst personalities?
I'm a autodidact, you may not be, but since I am only the information given by people like Patrick Johnson or Dr. Dave or any given reference is what I need. Patrick's approach seemed to be a hybrid style, and I extracted what I needed where, but the other side of his approach was for types other than me.
This is all too variable to me, and if I was to instruct others of my type, I'd link directly to Dr. Dave's proofs and help for about an hour at the table. So for the best help, maybe ask yourself how would you teach you? It almost seems like you have to answer that question first.
I'm a autodidact, you may not be, but since I am only the information given by people like Patrick Johnson or Dr. Dave or any given reference is what I need. Patrick's approach seemed to be a hybrid style, and I extracted what I needed where, but the other side of his approach was for types other than me.
This is all too variable to me, and if I was to instruct others of my type, I'd link directly to Dr. Dave's proofs and help for about an hour at the table. So for the best help, maybe ask yourself how would you teach you? It almost seems like you have to answer that question first.
There’s two things I’m Good at in life. ..playing guitar and billiards. Never had a lesson in either.
I’m of the philosophy that you need to develop your own style. There are no bad habits but rather things you do naturally. The best guitarists and Billiard players are on the path to top ranking by age 18 without ever having a lesson. They tap into their talent.
Billiards is simple. A stick and hitting a ball. The way you learn to do it well is by doing it...not being told how to allign your body, stance, bridge, magic cue, etc. Watch 20baseball pitchers, guitarists or whatever and they will have 20 different ‘bad habits’. The best billiard player in the world today, , Judd Trump, doesn’t even allign over the ball.
Play and play some more. Throw he balls on the table and hit a ball every 10 seconds. Use any ball as the cue ball. You can go to Youtube and watch a million lessons in angles, strategy, etc.
I’m of the philosophy that you need to develop your own style. There are no bad habits but rather things you do naturally. The best guitarists and Billiard players are on the path to top ranking by age 18 without ever having a lesson. They tap into their talent.
Billiards is simple. A stick and hitting a ball. The way you learn to do it well is by doing it...not being told how to allign your body, stance, bridge, magic cue, etc. Watch 20baseball pitchers, guitarists or whatever and they will have 20 different ‘bad habits’. The best billiard player in the world today, , Judd Trump, doesn’t even allign over the ball.
Play and play some more. Throw he balls on the table and hit a ball every 10 seconds. Use any ball as the cue ball. You can go to Youtube and watch a million lessons in angles, strategy, etc.
Robin...You are certainly welcome to your own opinion, but it is extremely biased. First, you lump ALL pool schools together in your response. There are tremendous differences in pool schools and pool school instructors. Second, since you have never attended ANY pool school, you're really not qualified to make the recommendations that you did. We have had APA 3's and semi-pro players in the same pool school. Everyone learned a lot! SPF rules! It's all about how the information is presented...
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
I didn't always agree with this opinion, but understand it a lot more than I use to. It's good to get in the box with the heat on. Maybe not gambling big, but even then, just jump in a local tourney but not the $5 variety, but maybe the $20 or $50 or $100 so there is some pressure, so you don't take "flyers" and you learn to beat players that you shouldn't.
But, I'll say an APA 3 gambling is not going to be helpful because at that point, they don't know enough about stance, bridge and stroke and other basic mechanics to give a flying F about "pressure"
There just is none, they are not good, they know it, and they assume they will lose anyways 
My hunch is that many pro player instructors wouldn't have the patience to work with a beginner, particularly a beginner that may not have much natural talent. A pro player with experience as an instructor is likely to be far more helpful to a more advanced player looking to continue improve their pattern play, strategy and possibly minor tweaks in their fundamentals or stroke. There are certainly plenty of exceptions to this assumption, particularly the pro players originally brought up as snooker players - where proper technique / fundaments are stressed far moreso than they are for pool players.
A qualified instructor who has spent far more time specializing in how to teach fundamentals to a beginner, and is experienced in doing so, is likely to be of more benefit to that level of player. Most dedicated instructors certainly have proficient enough shooting skills to be able to demonstrate what they are teaching, and are also certainly capable of helping a higher level player with the same aspects of the game mentioned above that a pro player / instructor would be good at as well.
Scott,
I have attended a Pool School probably after we played. I don't doubt that skill level 3's and others can be in the same room with each other and learn. What I specifically addressed is the efficacy of throwing 2 to 3 days of information at skill level 3.They would get more from slow integration. I'm sure if anyone knows what they're doing in that type of environment its you but I reserve the right to my opinion about skill level 3's. I tend to focus more on execution of skills but that road always leads to fundamentals and burning them in is a little easier when a players making some shots. I have learned that people really want the encouragement that a school gives but for my money at skill level 3 I'd want it given to me in spoonfuls. That's not to say others might do fine and get what they paid for in a school as the group experience can be good for people.
I have attended a Pool School probably after we played. I don't doubt that skill level 3's and others can be in the same room with each other and learn. What I specifically addressed is the efficacy of throwing 2 to 3 days of information at skill level 3.They would get more from slow integration. I'm sure if anyone knows what they're doing in that type of environment its you but I reserve the right to my opinion about skill level 3's. I tend to focus more on execution of skills but that road always leads to fundamentals and burning them in is a little easier when a players making some shots. I have learned that people really want the encouragement that a school gives but for my money at skill level 3 I'd want it given to me in spoonfuls. That's not to say others might do fine and get what they paid for in a school as the group experience can be good for people.
You could get 10 instructor's advice and you might not get the same exact advice twice. Fundamentals have to change from one person to the next, many times depending on physical limitations. Some things that are commonly taught simply do not work for everyone. If you don't believe this then watch a sh*t ton of professional tournament play and notice all the varying stances, grips, bridges, etc.
Yep.
Maniac
I guess I have one more point. I moved back in Indy and started playing in leagues and what I see most troublesome for me. Especially for lower level or starting players.
1.) Learn how to make a closed bridge and many different bridges. I see starting players struggling, and I offer to help, but sometimes I worry I come across wrong. Some folks just don't want help, and I should be smart enough to help only when asked....
I tell them to practice at home using a bottle to shoot into with cue with various bridges.
2.) Strategy. I win most matches not because I have the shot making skills as I had as a youth, but frankly, I shoot "two way" or "play safe" at the appropriate times. What I see most doing is shooting until they miss, no pattern play, often slopping something in or lucking their way into a safety.
IMO, these will help younger/new/starting players win more games than any other thing. A solid player could help on both of these IMO.
Ken
1.) Learn how to make a closed bridge and many different bridges. I see starting players struggling, and I offer to help, but sometimes I worry I come across wrong. Some folks just don't want help, and I should be smart enough to help only when asked....
I tell them to practice at home using a bottle to shoot into with cue with various bridges.2.) Strategy. I win most matches not because I have the shot making skills as I had as a youth, but frankly, I shoot "two way" or "play safe" at the appropriate times. What I see most doing is shooting until they miss, no pattern play, often slopping something in or lucking their way into a safety.
IMO, these will help younger/new/starting players win more games than any other thing. A solid player could help on both of these IMO.
Ken
If it was me AND IT WAS ''IMPORTANT'' TO ME', I would do it like I've done before when looking for a job in an industry I was good at.
I would go to a business that I wanted to work in and sit down and watch the employees, and what takes place.
When I would come in, someone would always ask me if I need help.
BEST response, you will then become invisible....tell em, your meeting a friend here....waiting on them to arrive.
This is THEE best answer....they All immediately know, they don't need to look/interact/HELP you ''at all'' and there are no problems. :grin:
I then just mull, and listen and watch the ''player group'' within the dept I'm looking to work in, ''WORK''.
It's quite amazing how, having working in the auto/service field for 17 yrs, when you approach looking for a new job, from this perspective. It's good for you and and the gander.
two points
Two points I want to make here:
1) It is possible to both play good pool AND be a good instructor. People who are saying 'choose the instructor over the player' are generally correct, but while being a good player doesn't make you a good instructor it doesn't prohibit it either. Specifically, don't disqualify me because I can lay it down on the table at times.
2) Fundamentals have areas that can be personalized and also areas that cannot. For example, you can choose from a number of stances or bridges. True. But if I were to say it is important to keep your eyes open when you play, you'd be hard pressed to find a top player that shoots with their eyes closed. That is an example of something all top players have in common. Along those universal fundamentals are a smooth accelerating stroke, a good preshot routine and rhythm, room in their stance to both sight the cue ball and swing the stick, and many more. Fundamentals aren't "Do it exactly like this in every way", but rather "Here's a requirement list of what makes up a good game that cannot be shortcut or avoided without a sacrifice to performance".
Two points I want to make here:
1) It is possible to both play good pool AND be a good instructor. People who are saying 'choose the instructor over the player' are generally correct, but while being a good player doesn't make you a good instructor it doesn't prohibit it either. Specifically, don't disqualify me because I can lay it down on the table at times.
2) Fundamentals have areas that can be personalized and also areas that cannot. For example, you can choose from a number of stances or bridges. True. But if I were to say it is important to keep your eyes open when you play, you'd be hard pressed to find a top player that shoots with their eyes closed. That is an example of something all top players have in common. Along those universal fundamentals are a smooth accelerating stroke, a good preshot routine and rhythm, room in their stance to both sight the cue ball and swing the stick, and many more. Fundamentals aren't "Do it exactly like this in every way", but rather "Here's a requirement list of what makes up a good game that cannot be shortcut or avoided without a sacrifice to performance".
Agreed. Grady Matthews seems a good example of a top player who also had the analytical and communication skills to be an outstanding teacher, as well as the diligence to develop solid training materials, but he was the exception. In general, those who rise to the very top as players usually get there by dedicating most of their time to playing, not to instructing, which is why so few top players turn out to be top instructors.
You, Tin Man,, are a good example of somebody who can both play and teach at a high level, but you're not one of many.
MakeTheSix
Registered
A beginner should seek out a compatible instructor.
Once a player is able to identify his or her weaknesses and ask relevant questions about patterns, ball pocketing, and controlling the cue ball then the pro will have the best information.
Once a player is able to identify his or her weaknesses and ask relevant questions about patterns, ball pocketing, and controlling the cue ball then the pro will have the best information.
I've been traveling the last few years giving private lessons much more than playing professionally, however, we're all on lockdown from doing personal instruction. Check out my membership site, it has over 10 hours of detailed private video instruction that may be what you're looking for - either way I wish you the best in your search.
CJ
CJ
Disagree.
You remind me a bit of many snooker players I've met throughout the years. They're snobbing downwards. They preach having the worst cue possible, no lessons, hit a million balls, shoot way too fast, everything is "talent". They take great pride in having no input what so ever from anyone and having the worst, shittiest cue in the world. It's really the opposite of the American mentality where you can improve at everything in life with a self help video, lots of effort and miracle cues that draw the ball for you, but they're both ludicrous extremes.
Watch some APA or similar amateur leagues and you can clearly watch peoples flaws making them miss. Or watch some club snooker players instead, if you insist. This is why they spend their lives as 500 Fargo or 30 break players. Typical flaws include jerking the back to forward stroke transition, alignment, bad bridge allowing movement etc...You can figure all this out yourself, which I suspect is what most people on here have done, including myself, though I've had some small corrections that made a big difference. This takes time, and really why not save a great deal of time by just having the basic things put in place early?