that might be an exception yes. MMA has really taken over there (sadly, imo). i see many MMA gyms in my city but no boxing gyms
Pros today vs the pros yesterday
- Thread starter JoeyInCali
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that might be an exception yes. MMA has really taken over there (sadly, imo). i see many MMA gyms in my city but no boxing gyms
Today's players are trying to be more mechanical, like robots. Yesterday's players were imperfect, but they got the job done, and their personalities came out in their styles. If you went to watch the Miz play, or Lou Butera, or Irving Crane, or McCready, or St. Louie Louie, or Little David, or Mike Sigel, you knew exactly what to expect on the table --- awesome playing, and a personality that matched their style. It was entertaining and educating and made the game so much fun to watch. Younger players and spectators these days missed out on something special. We are not robots. Why try to be one?
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Today's Simonis cloth is much easier to play on than the nappier cloth from the 80's on back. So do the more standardized atmospheric conditions in today's top level pro tournaments. Today's tighter pockets make it harder, but the Dew Drop In humidity levels in many of those older rooms (Beanie's Jack and Jill in Virginia, for example) could make those bigger pockets play like snooker pockets during the warm weather months.
The internationalization of today's game forces players to keep improving or else. But then so did having to grind out a living on long road trips against undercover pool monsters under wildly varying conditions and often hostile sweaters. Pressure can take many different forms.
The old two foul / push out rules called for greater strategizing and favored the better shotmaker, but Texas Express calls for far greater all-around skills like multi-rail kicking. If I had to name the biggest improvement in today's game, it'd be the unworldly kicking skills of today's top players.
Give a young Buddy Hall a year to adjust to today's pro tour and I have no doubts that he'd be playing at the very top level, even if he wouldn't dominate the way he did when there were far fewer players to beat. Even Shane in his prime couldn't win as many tournaments today as he did in the mid-2010's. When you get shot through a forest as big as today's tournament fields it's harder than ever to avoid every last tree.
Put Filler or Gorst or SVB in the sort of situations and playing conditions that Hall or Lassiter or Don Willis had to face in their prime gambling years, and while I think they'd also come out quite well, I also think they'd have a longer period of adjustment.
The internationalization of today's game forces players to keep improving or else. But then so did having to grind out a living on long road trips against undercover pool monsters under wildly varying conditions and often hostile sweaters. Pressure can take many different forms.
The old two foul / push out rules called for greater strategizing and favored the better shotmaker, but Texas Express calls for far greater all-around skills like multi-rail kicking. If I had to name the biggest improvement in today's game, it'd be the unworldly kicking skills of today's top players.
Give a young Buddy Hall a year to adjust to today's pro tour and I have no doubts that he'd be playing at the very top level, even if he wouldn't dominate the way he did when there were far fewer players to beat. Even Shane in his prime couldn't win as many tournaments today as he did in the mid-2010's. When you get shot through a forest as big as today's tournament fields it's harder than ever to avoid every last tree.
Put Filler or Gorst or SVB in the sort of situations and playing conditions that Hall or Lassiter or Don Willis had to face in their prime gambling years, and while I think they'd also come out quite well, I also think they'd have a longer period of adjustment.
Totally accurate comment, Hu. And there's a not-immediately-obvious reason for that:
-- Virtually all of the older players -- especially the top tier -- honed their "smarts" (lightning-fast, instinctive risk-reward assessment on every shot) -- not via cumulative tournament experiences -- but directly related to their continual immersion in the gambling life and road days that prevailed as they were coming up in the US. Gambling courage and prowess was an irresistible & lusty "siren call" in their times for building a solid skills arsenal.
Often for the sake of survival itself, without an -- ugh -- alternate occupation.
Arnaldo
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When Archer played Shane, even he considered himself the underdog in the TAR matches. I don't think anyone expected him to win.
When I watch an old match from the 70s or 80s I always notice how often they draw the cue. Varner especially. Today's players seem to have a preference for natural angles and follow. I tried switching my game to the modern style but just can't do it. Too old. Draw it is.
Todays pros have a voice.
Some speak up and consequences follow.
Imagine Cisero Murphy posting on social media. Would the pool community turnout and support Cisero against tournament organized rules?
What social issues are pool players facing. Visa bans, lost endorsements, rising costs, legal oppression and violent behavior.
On a lighter note billiard players may be the most cultured of people. Familiar with cuisine from all over the world.
Billiard rooms face tough times. No one is proposing ideas or pushing back against targeted regulations.
Todays top pros travel more than ever with increased flying on the horizon. A top pool pro is a global ambassador. Flying to China, Russia and other countries are common today.
Some speak up and consequences follow.
Imagine Cisero Murphy posting on social media. Would the pool community turnout and support Cisero against tournament organized rules?
What social issues are pool players facing. Visa bans, lost endorsements, rising costs, legal oppression and violent behavior.
On a lighter note billiard players may be the most cultured of people. Familiar with cuisine from all over the world.
Billiard rooms face tough times. No one is proposing ideas or pushing back against targeted regulations.
Todays top pros travel more than ever with increased flying on the horizon. A top pool pro is a global ambassador. Flying to China, Russia and other countries are common today.
Another exception would be the game of 14.1, where I think the stronger players of that game unquestionably were of previous eras. Of course it might be because that was the game of choice back then, but there are very few exceptions if any to that rule. Thorsten might be the only player I think stacks up to the old 14.1 champions in terms of consistency and pattern play.
The style of using natural angles and follow predates using draw as the favored style. If today's players are using speed and angles things have moved full circle.
One thing that might be causing you difficulty is distance from the object ball. Those relying on draw may be a bit more flexible in range, especially closer, but I find speed and angles to work best when I don't get too close to the object ball with the cue ball. I find sixteen to twenty-four inches works very well, twelve to thirty inches or so, still works but getting too close to the object ball makes speed and angles much harder to use. That was my "sin" for a long time, getting too close to my work!
Apologies for unsolicited advice. I am a long term advocate of speed and angles. Once somebody gets these things working they rarely go back to draw and spin to get the cue ball around. Strong draw and spin are still in a player's arsenal but they will find themselves using these things as a last resort rather than a first choice.
Hu
Maybe. The point is there is not a single shot Shane knows (and can execute) better than Archer. Or Archer better than Strickland. Or Strickland better than Hall. Or Filler better than Souquet. Or Aranas better than Efren.
Except the ones that were directly affected by equipment changes, like jump cues, Sardo/magic racks, etc. The play after the break and not counting jump shots is exactly the same for 50 years now.
IMO
yes you are so right. what seems to make them better is the changes in the tables and equipment.
also the old wet slow cloth made for drawing your ball back rather than going farther using the rails as you had to stroke it more and that led to more variation in position.
they are playing a different game now. i played on both and can see how the game has changed. for the better or worse depending on when you lived and played.
also the old wet slow cloth made for drawing your ball back rather than going farther using the rails as you had to stroke it more and that led to more variation in position.
they are playing a different game now. i played on both and can see how the game has changed. for the better or worse depending on when you lived and played.
Have you seen Jayson Shaw in his record run?
The 2 handed bowlers of today look like a bunch of 7 years olds who cant quite lift the ball yet. I would stay home before I ever threw a ball like that.
shaw played on big pockets more forgiving than most of the years back gold crowns and anniversaries everyone played on.
and the table was fast and polished balls that scattered when he hit the pack hard.
long time back i never saw any polished balls. most all were rarely cleaned as well.
it was a record run. but not on the same equipment as old time big runs. you can only compare the numbers, not the difficulty.
and the table was fast and polished balls that scattered when he hit the pack hard.
long time back i never saw any polished balls. most all were rarely cleaned as well.
it was a record run. but not on the same equipment as old time big runs. you can only compare the numbers, not the difficulty.
If you paid Shaw, Filler, Hohmann, Gorst and Pagulayan to play 14.1 for years, it wouldn't matter if they had those conditions .
They would eventually ran hundreds and hundreds .
23DenaliBDE
Well-known member
100% agree. MMA cost boxing in a huge way
I think you're wrong. If the carrot is big enough, new players do nearly everything just a bit better than the previous generation. Shane's all-around game gets overlooked because of how good his break is, but he does so many things just a bit better than Archer did. His play with the cue ball on the rail may be the best ever. He kicks and plays safe better than Archer, and he may have the most powerful stroke of all time.Maybe. The point is there is not a single shot Shane knows (and can execute) better than Archer. Or Archer better than Strickland. Or Strickland better than Hall. Or Filler better than Souquet. Or Aranas better than Efren.
Except the ones that were directly affected by equipment changes, like jump cues, Sardo/magic racks, etc. The play after the break and not counting jump shots is exactly the same for 50 years now.
IMO
This is just the nature of sports. It's one thing to say previous greats would still be great if they played today. I agree with that but they would have to raise their games a bit. What you're saying is -- the game is constant! It's not. It progresses.
Shaw ran the balls with no pressure.
How many would he have run in competition against say a Mosconi,Caras or Lassitter.
Fun pool and pressure pool are two different things.
Fun pool means nothing a player runs a 100 practising yeah nice run.
A player runs 50 under pressure and thats more impressive.
I've run 80's and 90's practicing and shot low percentage shots just to try and extend the run.
Shots I would never shoot in competition.
But the times I've run 30 or 40 out for the cash now thats what I remember,did that a few times as a 16 year old with no money in my pocket,do that against grown men(this was back in the early 60's when an adult thought nothing of smacking a kid around) and see how your heart pounds.
But his run was impressive none the less.
Mosconi ran 526 with no pressure either.
He was playing a palooka. It was an exhibition.
Efren ran 130+ in his first 14.1 tournament and won it.
Was one break away from going 150 and out in NY in his other straight pool tournament.
Shaw won the US Open in a hill-hill match.
It included a long jump and another ridiculous shot.