Pro Pool players courting disaster

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Once again professional pool players (particularly those in America) are getting ready to shoot themselves in the foot. This is nothing new, a little history is in order.

Thirty years ago a promoter named Richie Florence produced a series of high dollar tournaments ($75-150,000 each) at various Caesars World properties. All these events had the final three matches televised on ESPN. At his last event in 1984 at Caesars Palace the pro players refused to sign the required television releases and the shows never aired. Earl won that tournament nearly 30 years ago and the first prize was $25,000! That was the last tournament Richie ever produced. He had lost all his sponsorship.

Twenty years ago, yours truly produced the first Los Angeles Open. The total prize money was $140,000. Earl also won that one for a $21,000 first prize. Peg Ledman won the women's division for $10,000. The following year, the men players (led by Don Mackey) boycotted the Los Angeles Open and refused to play. I held it anyway, with three divisions, Bank Pool, One Pocket and 9-Ball. The total prize money was $160,000 and Mark Tadd won $27,000! That was the last year for the Los Angeles Open.

Five years later, the men's tour (MPBA, still led by Mackey) sued R.J. Reynolds, the producers of the Camel Pro Tour. Camel was prepared to up the ante for much bigger events, doubling the prize money per event from $75,000 to $150,000. The Bonus money would be increased from $300,000 (yes you read that right) to $500,000! Following the initiation of the law suit, Camel shut down the tour the following year and let Mackey and Co. produce the last five events. NO money was paid out for the final five tournaments! The players, who were backing the wrong horse again, got stiffed!

Now we come to present time. Two tireless promoters who produce some of the most important events in the USA are having their events threatened by a fledgling organization led by someone completely new to the pro pool scene. And the players are buying it! What could happen if the pro players do not support these two totally honorable promoters (Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin) is they are in danger of losing these events. If they chose to bypass these upcoming tournaments to participate in a venture that is tenuous at best and unlikely to succeed in the future, then they could lose three of the most important events of the year.

Both Greg and Mark do not have to produce major pool tournaments. It is a labor of love for them. They are both old school pool guys who have their heart in the right place when it comes to our sport. Besides that they pay out (on time!) hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money every year. The players, by showing their disloyalty, are in danger of losing these events. And for what, a new tour that can't seem to get off the ground and then chooses to start right on top of two of the biggest events of the year in the USA.

All I have to say to the professional players is think long and hard about the decisions you make in June and July. You could find yourself with an empty dance card if you don't!
 
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Wedge

WO Wedge Lock
Silver Member
Thanks Jay

Very interesting stuff about the past. Let's hope History doesn't repeat itself.

Wedge
 

poolguy4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can't think of too many professional pool players in the USA that shoot pool for a living. The dance floor is empty and will stay empty until someone plays the right music. :frown:
 

punter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good advice. When players are desperate for money, their decisions can be near sighted. I hope they consider what you have brought to their attention, Mr. Helfert.
 

nathandumoulin

WPBL / RUNOUT MEDIA
Silver Member
"When you continue to dwell on the past, there's no chance for a future."

Players can't make a living playing in 3-4 major North American events per year, and those events are becoming less numerous each year. It's time for change.
 

1 Lone Wolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
J
Once again professional pool players (particularly those in America) are getting ready to shoot themselves in the foot. This is nothing new, a little history is in order.

Thirty years ago a promoter named Richie Florence produced a series of high dollar tournaments ($75-150,000 each) at various Caesars World properties. All these events had the final three matches televised on ESPN. At his last event in 1984 at Caesars Palace the pro players refused to sign the required television releases and the shows never aired. Earl won that tournament nearly 30 years ago and the first prize was $25,000! That was the last tournament Richie ever produced. He had lost all his sponsorship.

Twenty years ago, yours truly produced the first Los Angeles Open. The total prize money was $140,000. Earl also won that one for a $21,000 first prize. Peg Ledman won the women's division for $10,000. The following year, the men players (led by Don Mackey) boycotted the Los Angeles Open and refused to play. I held it anyway, with three divisions, Bank Pool, One Pocket and 9-Ball. The total prize money was $160,000 and Mark Tadd won $27,000! That was the last year for the Los Angeles Open.

Five years later, the men's tour (MPBA, still led by Mackey) sued R.J. Reynolds, the producers of the Camel Pro Tour. Camel was prepared to up the ante for much bigger events, doubling the prize money per event from $75,000 to $150,000. The Bonus money would be increased from $300,000 (yes you read that right) to $500,000! Following the initiation of the law suit, Camel shut down the tour the following year and let Mackey and Co. produce the last five events. NO money was paid out for the final five tournaments! The players, who were backing the wrong horse again, got stiffed!

Now we come to present time. Two tireless promoters who produce some of the most important events in the USA are having their events threatened by a fledgling organization led by someone completely new to the pro pool scene. And the players are buying it! What could happen if the pro players do not support these two totally honorable promoters (Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin) is they are in danger of losing these events. If they chose to bypass these upcoming tournaments to participate in a venture that is tenuous at best and unlikely to succeed in the future, then they could lose three of the most important events of the year.

Both Greg and Mark do not have to produce major pool tournaments. It is a labor of love for them. They are both old school pool guys who have their heart in the right place when it comes to our sport. Besides that they pay out (on time!) hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money every year. The players, by showing their disloyalty, are in danger of losing these events. And for what, a new tour that can't seem to get off the ground and then chooses to start right on top of two of the biggest events of the year in the USA.

All I have to say to the professional players is think long and hard about the decisions you make in June and July. You could find yourself with an empty dance card if you don't!

Jay , I agree Mark and Greg do a tremendous amount for pool. Don't you think having a open mind is fair enough. Pool needs new input, And why can't you believe that this is opportunity pool has never seen. I wish I could tell the future but I can't. Give this a chance is my thoughts.
Im sure Mark and Greg hope Bonus Ball is a success. It would mean pool table sales and league play could increase also. This is the 1st time I can recall that there is a real facility built for pool.
Pool players and promoters have added a lot of money to tournaments, Including myself. Lets give it a chance Jay. A lot of people respect your opinion, Including me.
Gary Lutman
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
History always repeats itself. That's why it was such a boring subject in school.

In defense of the players, either the old promoters or the new promoter is going to lose...and the players will get blamed.

If they go with the New, causing the old to die, they'll get blamed for the death. And doubly damned when the New dies too.

If they don't go with the New, they'll get blamed for being stuck in the past (X-promoter had a good plan and gobs of money, but the players wouldn't get on-board!")

When your industry is shrinking there really are NO good choices. Likewise, when your industry is growing it's hard to make a bad choice.
 

pwd72s

recreational banger
Silver Member
"When you continue to dwell on the past, there's no chance for a future."

Players can't make a living playing in 3-4 major North American events per year, and those events are becoming less numerous each year. It's time for change.

What change do you have in mind? I'm not trying to be a wise ass here. I'm asking an honest question. NOT a pro player here. But I sure as hell would like to see a pro tour televised live on ESPN..
 

1 Lone Wolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Change........

What change do you have in mind? I'm not trying to be a wise ass here. I'm asking an honest question. NOT a pro player here. But I sure as hell would like to see a pro tour televised live on ESPN..

Im a player, Do we keep on the track were on or do we welcome change ? So much negative comments here, Can't stand it. We need positive people with vision, Not old school, It has NOT worked.
Gary
 

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
I've always said that if pool ever had real success that brought it into the mainstream a lot of people would be disappointed because all (or almost all) of the events and current scene that us hardcore fans enjoy would be wiped out as products of a bygone era. However, the problem is that something actually has to catch on in a big way for that to happen, and at this point (though I wish it weren't the case) I believe Jay is right and this is going to end up being lose lose for everyone. I hope I'm wrong.
 

1 Lone Wolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once again professional pool players (particularly those in America) are getting ready to shoot themselves in the foot. This is nothing new, a little history is in order.

Thirty years ago a promoter named Richie Florence produced a series of high dollar tournaments ($75-150,000 each) at various Caesars World properties. All these events had the final three matches televised on ESPN. At his last event in 1984 at Caesars Palace the pro players refused to sign the required television releases and the shows never aired. Earl won that tournament nearly 30 years ago and the first prize was $25,000! That was the last tournament Richie ever produced. He had lost all his sponsorship.

Twenty years ago, yours truly produced the first Los Angeles Open. The total prize money was $140,000. Earl also won that one for a $21,000 first prize. Peg Ledman won the women's division for $10,000. The following year, the men players (led by Don Mackey) boycotted the Los Angeles Open and refused to play. I held it anyway, with three divisions, Bank Pool, One Pocket and 9-Ball. The total prize money was $160,000 and Mark Tadd won $27,000! That was the last year for the Los Angeles Open.

Five years later, the men's tour (MPBA, still led by Mackey) sued R.J. Reynolds, the producers of the Camel Pro Tour. Camel was prepared to up the ante for much bigger events, doubling the prize money per event from $75,000 to $150,000. The Bonus money would be increased from $300,000 (yes you read that right) to $500,000! Following the initiation of the law suit, Camel shut down the tour the following year and let Mackey and Co. produce the last five events. NO money was paid out for the final five tournaments! The players, who were backing the wrong horse again, got stiffed!

Now we come to present time. Two tireless promoters who produce some of the most important events in the USA are having their events threatened by a fledgling organization led by someone completely new to the pro pool scene. And the players are buying it! What could happen if the pro players do not support these two totally honorable promoters (Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin) is they are in danger of losing these events. If they chose to bypass these upcoming tournaments to participate in a venture that is tenuous at best and unlikely to succeed in the future, then they could lose three of the most important events of the year.

Both Greg and Mark do not have to produce major pool tournaments. It is a labor of love for them. They are both old school pool guys who have their heart in the right place when it comes to our sport. Besides that they pay out (on time!) hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money every year. The players, by showing their disloyalty, are in danger of losing these events. And for what, a new tour that can't seem to get off the ground and then chooses to start right on top of two of the biggest events of the year in the USA.

All I have to say to the professional players is think long and hard about the decisions you make in June and July. You could find yourself with an empty dance card if you don't!

Jay, This is like calling a bad hit without seeing the shot !!!!!!!!!
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mackey shit all over everyone in pool, i dont think many would disagree, as far as the future goes, who know's?? Greg and Mark are stand up guys and have had enormous success the past 5 years while the rest of the country has not done so well. There is a come back in the stock market but thats a different topic. I think that water finds it's own level, the creme rises to the top etc. Mark and Greg have done that together, it aint been a perfectly smooth road together, but they have out performed most others in pool. And I feel that with their foot hold in the pool world they will be fine, as Nathan pointed out they have a established business that grows if/when pool grows, where Mackey, Earl or who ever you pointed out didn't have.

I think that it will all work out, it might be a rough road this year, for everyone-Diamond, BB, players, but being a optimist I think it will find its own way because this time the dynamic is different than in the past. There isnt a alternative plan either, the $$ is on the shorts like never before, and the internet is a game changer too. So history just might not repeat itself this time-we can only hope.
 

punter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It would be much different if things had gone smoothly for bonus ball. As it stands, the problems they have had and the delays don't inspire a lot of confidence. The best you can say is that they are still plugging along and the start date is nearing. The scheduling conflicts are very unfortunate, and seems if bonus ball was in a stronger position, there could have been some considerations made to avoid these conflicts.
 

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So...why can't we have more than one or two Promoters?

I think if they can work out their schedules, so they don't conflict, it would be a win/win?

Or is the scheduling the main problem here?
 
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jimmyg

Mook! What's a Mook?
Silver Member
The biggest problem that has in the past and which will continue to prevent pool from advancing into the mainstream society is the people who were/are involved in pool.

Charlatans and dreamers with gimmicks and cons playing the pied piper to talented, but generally uneducated, needy, and yet very independent players who don't know enough to realize that they don't have the knowledge and background to make qualified business decisions. Rejecting RJ Reynolds and the casino industry in favor of some fast talking, snake oil salesmen is just plain insane, and yes, it seems to repeat itself on cue.

I'm not suggesting that the current new kid on the block is anything but sincere, legitimate, and capable, I really haven't any knowledge one way or another, but what I am suggesting that there certainly red flags being thrown all over the place, including a general disregard for the already established, proven, and respected industry participants.

J
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So...why can't we have more than one or two Promoters?

I think if they can work out their schedules, so they don't conflict, it would be a win/win?

Or is the scheduling the main problem here?


on the surface thats the beef, in reality the issue run much deeper.....


it inability of the pool world for forgive and forget is its real downfall.....
 
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JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the owner of Bonus Ball, just like Kevin Trudeau with the IPT, either was given bad advice or he did not follow the advice given; thus, the stop-start happenings due to construction problems.

However, I do not believe that this Bonus Ball owner is deliberately, with malice aforethought, trying to thwart the efforts of the valued pool promoters like Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, and others who are continuing to give it their all.

Personally, I think if I were a pro pool player in 2013, I would try my best to get the biggest bang for my buck. There is no allegiance by professional pool players because there is not a tour in existence. As such, they are going to go to the competition where they can make the biggest score. I understand why players are hanging out in Vegas, hoping to make a decent living -- for as long as it lasts. But with the "promise" of a regular income, it sure beats going to two, three, and four tournaments a month, having to win, place, or show to break even.

The Bonus Ball platform may be sound, but I just can't see it flourishing in mainstream America. Without mainstream America, it will be difficult to turn a profit, and Bonus Ball, just like the IPT, will fold up like a lawn chair, leaving the pro players with having to be in the same situation they were in before Bonus Ball came along.

The two upcoming Tunica events are in focus right now. If they suffer attendance by pro players, then the pro players will be shooting themselves in the foot. Mark Griffin's main enterprise is based on league players, and what he does for pro players is truly a gift to them. I'm not so sure he turns a profit with his professional pool events -- and it's really none of my business -- but it is my opinon that he does the professional pool events out of the kindness of his heart because he does care about professional pool with all its warts and faults.

The same is true with Greg Sullivan. He genuinely loves pool players of all caliber and goes out of his way to effect a pool mecca for all to enjoy. He also helps pro players as much as he can by making it easy for them to attend. Greg understands how difficult it is for the pro players to attend events. As far as I'm concerned, the Derby City Classic is in one of the best pool events of the year. In fact, some folks make it their only event to attend each year; they love it that much.

I guess I'm in a wait-and-see mode with Bonus Ball, so I'm not going to condemn it at this juncture. If I were a pro player, I'd be hanging out in Vegas too, collecting the dough. It's easy for those of us who are looking from the outside in to cast judgments, but until you walk in the shoes of an American professional pool player, you shouldn't judge them. They gotta do what they gotta do to survive, while we work our 9-to-5 jobs and enjoy having the security of a roof over our heads. In other words, it's *their* call, not ours. They are the ones trying to survive.

Let's face it. American professional pool has a cancer which is gnawing away at it, and it is dying a slow and ugly death. Without the professional tour, without recognition by the Olympic Committee, without mainstream America's involvement, American professional pool right now, sad to say, is circling the drain. The pro players, in essence, are mere refugees trying to survive.
 
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tank69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
History may repeat itself, but will it? The history of pool has always been sketchy at best. Has Mark, Greg and the guy doing Bonus Ball ever had a sit down together? I'm with JAM, I don't feel the schedule was done in malice considering all the pitfalls BB has had the past year. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, but let's face it, the pro players will go where the money is...and in this BB case, it's guaranteed money.
 
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