4 inch pockets are not terrible.

I'll tell you this about 4" pockets...how many hanger balls do you see when you're playing on a table with 4" pockets? Almost none, because the slate shelf on both sides of the pockets are covered over by the rails, which means either the ball is in...or it's out. At least on a table with ProCut 4 1/2" pockets, provided they're built right...if a ball comes into contact with a rail on the way to the pocket with a little to much speed...it'll hang the ball in the pocket as punishment for not hitting it correctly...and that kind of pocket I support.

As a top mechanic I get a lot of requests to make tables play more like "Diamonds" with their pockets. I've never had a request to make a table play like a "Brunswick":D So, because there's a slate shelf difference between a Diamond and a Brunswick, I'll tighten up the pockets to 4 1/4" on the Brunswick to kind of make it play a little more tight like a Diamond, but to go tighter than that....is to also ask me to create a table I don't support or believe in...as a player/mechanic...unless the table is going to be used to play one pocket only, then the best pocket for that is 4 1/8". Tighter than that and you'd have to call another mechanic because I just don't believe in changing the game that I support to much...into something that it's not meant to be....snooker;)

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
I'll tell you this about 4" pockets...how many hanger balls do you see when you're playing on a table with 4" pockets? Almost none, because the slate shelf on both sides of the pockets are covered over by the rails, which means either the ball is in...or it's out. At least on a table with ProCut 4 1/2" pockets, provided they're built right...if a ball comes into contact with a rail on the way to the pocket with a little to much speed...it'll hang the ball in the pocket as punishment for not hitting it correctly...and that kind of pocket I support.

As a top mechanic I get a lot of requests to make tables play more like "Diamonds" with their pockets. I've never had a request to make a table play like a "Brunswick":D So, because there's a slate shelf difference between a Diamond and a Brunswick, I'll tighten up the pockets to 4 1/4" on the Brunswick to kind of make it play a little more tight like a Diamond, but to go tighter than that....is to also ask me to create a table I don't support or believe in...as a player/mechanic...unless the table is going to be used to play one pocket only, then the best pocket for that is 4 1/8". Tighter than that and you'd have to call another mechanic because I just don't believe in changing the game that I support to much...into something that it's not meant to be....snooker;)

Glen
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Everything you say here makes perfect since to me Glen. When I was watching the Hard Times Mezz event last weekend I really felt for the players playing a rotation game with 3-7/8 inch pockets. No fan wants to see there favorite player miss routine shots. People were coming on the site and making statements like, I can beat these guys! I happen to know that table and how ridiculously tight it is, but other viewers didn't. I don't think it's good for the game to have tables that tuff for any rotation games anyway. I like good normal 4-1/4 to 4-1/2 inch pkts. I will admit though, it was interesting to watch which pros adjusted to the conditions and played the right way for the equiptment. I have never been anywhere in the Country and seen any table play as tuff as Table 1 at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA.
 
What gets me are the 14.1 players saying 4" or less pockets are no good for 14.1 but ok for rotation games. Show me the player thats left with shots from the other player that he has to go around 3 or 4 rails between balls on the table and get perfect angle on the OB for the next two shots. Pockets that tight make for another game all together...not pool. This is what I saw at the mezz tournament=gently roll the QB into the OB, make the ball, opps your a hair off on the position...now play safe...AGAIN. Now the other guy starts the same routine again. Boring as hell to watch. Johnnyt
 
If I was to pick one size for a Gold Crown to play all games on, I would pick 4.25". Come to think of it, that's what I did pick. Anything less than that and it's a little too tight for my liking. If I was playing straight pool only I would go to 4.5" or so.
 
markgw said:
Everything you say here makes perfect since to me Glen. When I was watching the Hard Times Mezz event last weekend I really felt for the players playing a rotation game with 3-7/8 inch pockets. No fan wants to see there favorite player miss routine shots. People were coming on the site and making statements like, I can beat these guys! I happen to know that table and how ridiculously tight it is, but other viewers didn't. I don't think it's good for the game to have tables that tuff for any rotation games anyway. I like good normal 4-1/4 to 4-1/2 inch pkts. I will admit though, it was interesting to watch which pros adjusted to the conditions and played the right way for the equiptment. I have never been anywhere in the Country and seen any table play as tuff as Table 1 at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA.
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You missed out on the Diamond 9ft ProAm I changed the pockets on from ProCut 4 1/2" to 3 7/8" for a one pocket table up at the Golden Fleece in Kenmore, WA. With the Diamond deep shelf slate combined with 3 7/8" pockets...the table just about became impossible to play on when the cloth broke in, and I made sure to ask the owners (3) times if they were sure that's what they wanted for pockets...before going against my better judgment and committing the pockets to their request. Now they've had the tables recovered by someone else....and I heard they opened up the pockets on that table so people would start playing on it again:D

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
You missed out on the Diamond 9ft ProAm I changed the pockets on from ProCut 4 1/2" to 3 7/8" for a one pocket table up at the Golden Fleece in Kenmore, WA. With the Diamond deep shelf slate combined with 3 7/8" pockets...the table just about became impossible to play on when the cloth broke in, and I made sure to ask the owners (3) times if they were sure that's what they wanted for pockets...before going against my better judgment and committing the pockets to their request. Now they've had the tables recovered by someone else....and I heard they opened up the pockets on that table so people would start playing on it again:D

Glen
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Glen,

I would say the way Diamonds are cut, they play about 1/4" smaller than a comparably sized straight cut pocket with a shallow shelf. Minimum cut on a Diamond should be 4 1/4", average maybe 4 1/2". Anything much larger is a bucket.

A straight cut pocket with a shallow shelf, minimum cut should be 4", average 4 1/4". 4 1/2 would be max but anything larger is a bucket.

No sides should be less than 5". Less than 5" is a crippled table in my opinion. Much larger and banks are too easy and large sides hinder position play. This encourages sloppy play.

Any ball fired landing anywhere within the point in the corner hard should drop - to me that's the litmus test of a properly built corner pocket.

I don't agree that missed balls should hang up in front of the corner pockets. If it lands within the point it should drop and if it doesn't, it should spit out - I've seen too many shimmed tables hang balls that were struck well.

Chris
 
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I loved that table glen...

realkingcobra said:
You missed out on the Diamond 9ft ProAm I changed the pockets on from ProCut 4 1/2" to 3 7/8" for a one pocket table up at the Golden Fleece in Kenmore, WA. With the Diamond deep shelf slate combined with 3 7/8" pockets...the table just about became impossible to play on when the cloth broke in, and I made sure to ask the owners (3) times if they were sure that's what they wanted for pockets...before going against my better judgment and committing the pockets to their request. Now they've had the tables recovered by someone else....and I heard they opened up the pockets on that table so people would start playing on it again:D

Glen
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I got to play some nineball on it and then I played Dan Louie some one hole on it. I loved the way it played, but that was with absolutely spanking brand new cloth and prefectly clean balls too....

Jaden
 
I would think that the pros and gamblers would prefer to play on the tighter tables when playing each other. Its a better test of their ability. Hitting the center of the pocket on every shot is the object of each shot, unless you didn't get good shape to start.

I have had plenty of decent runs on the 4" pockets at HT in Sac., but we don't have humidity problems like the east coast. I remember the US Open a couple years back had problems with the Diamonds playing too tight because of the moisture.

As for watching the pros play on them, I guess some of us old timers may be spoiled. I see in previous threads where some posters complain about not seeing strings of racks. Maybe todays players just aren't that good. Most of us OTs remember watching Denny, Cole, Ronnie, Richie and many others string racks of payball (pink ball) on a big snooker table for big money and ring games. Don't see any of that anymore. One of the biggest attractions to other players.

Seems like many,including some pros, want to complain about why they miss instead of hitting the ball in the center of the pocket.

If you could have seen Denny Searcy pound balls into the pockets, bank and run balls down the rail of a 6x12 rack after rack, then you might appreciate how good some of these players can really get and enjoy watching them be tested, instead of them complaining about tight pockets.

Just my thoughts, I like our 4" pockets. In a lot of humidity, maybe not.
 
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All i can say is if Oscar Dominguez can run 112 balls on a 3.5 in table then 4 in pockets shouldnt matter. Hell i havent come close to that number yet on a 5 in pocket table. i do realize that there are certain shots in straight pool that requires a bigger pocket but I look at it as i missed my position to that ball. But what do i know. Im just a nobody who just loves the game.
 
rbpwrd240 said:
I want to make an emotional post BUT I will simply state that Minnesota fats played on big 10 foot tables with tight pockets.... The game evolves as should its players!!!!! Jump cues tight pockets 9 foot tables we can all argue but the end result wont change anything.... Lots of respect for all of you but deal with the pro tours and their rules!!! Tight pockets and rules arguments need to be adjusted to not changed!!!:)

When you can go put a pro tour together then make the rules as you wish. Hopefully it works for you!!!
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Yes I'm sure Minnesota fats played on those tables. In my eyes the way he played made him a candidate for the last 6.
 
> At least most of you GET to play on 9 footers,like someone mentioned earlier,where I live is a 2 hour drive from the closest Diamond PERIOD,let alone one with 4' pockets.

They have one at The Rack that has to be 3 1/2,but that table is primarily used for one-hole.

Even a Diamond with 4 1/2 might be tighter than I can run out on with the regularity I do on the tables here :(. I'd be burning it up trying though :thumbup:.

I'm still betting if a Diamond Pro were to show up in my town,I'd still run out more than everyone else I see locally.

If you get to play on super-tough equipment,PLAY ON IT. I sure as hell would be...Tommy D.
 
I find this thread to be very interesting reading- mainly because I'm looking at purchasing a table for my house in the near future and I am debating within, which pocket size to specify.

I must also add that this board is a veritable gold mine of information!
 
rbpwrd240 said:
I want to make an emotional post BUT I will simply state that Minnesota fats played on big 10 foot tables with tight pockets.... The game evolves as should its players!!!!! Jump cues tight pockets 9 foot tables we can all argue but the end result wont change anything.... Lots of respect for all of you but deal with the pro tours and their rules!!! Tight pockets and rules arguments need to be adjusted to not changed!!!:)

When you can go put a pro tour together then make the rules as you wish. Hopefully it works for you!!!
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I wonder if 5 inch pockets were standard on 10' tables? If that is the case then one might agree that 5 inch pockets are to large for nine foot tables. That being said I believe that 4.5 inch pockets are perfect, challenging but not impossible.
 
center pocket said:
I wonder if 5 inch pockets were standard on 10' tables? If that is the case then one might agree that 5 inch pockets are to large for nine foot tables. That being said I believe that 4.5 inch pockets are perfect, challenging but not impossible.
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I believe the Pro Cut Diamonds come from the factory with 4.5" pockets, but they also have the deep slate shelf. I think a GC with 4.25" pockets is a fair equivalent to a Pro Cut Diamond.
 
center pocket said:
I wonder if 5 inch pockets were standard on 10' tables? If that is the case then one might agree that 5 inch pockets are to large for nine foot tables. That being said I believe that 4.5 inch pockets are perfect, challenging but not impossible.
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I played a lot on 5x10's in the 60's.
They were mostly 4.5 in. pockets.
There were old 4.5x9's with the same pockets.
Makes you respect Greenleaf's centuries and Mosconi's early runs.
I think 4.5 should be as small as you want to go.
Otherwise you might as well play snooker.

and deep shelves suck..trap pockets are for $ games - not enjoyment
 
pt109 said:
I played a lot on 5x10's in the 60's.
They were mostly 4.5 in. pockets.
There were old 4.5x9's with the same pockets.
Makes you respect Greenleaf's centuries and Mosconi's early runs.
I think 4.5 should be as small as you want to go.
Otherwise you might as well play snooker.

and deep shelves suck..trap pockets are for $ games - not enjoyment
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Older Brunswick tables came with 5" or bigger corner pockets from the factory. Brunswick has never produced a table with ProCut pockets until the later GC4's and that was for tournament use only, and with thicker pocket shims. Even the GC5 tournament editions are 4 9/16" corner pockets.

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
Older Brunswick tables came with 5" or bigger corner pockets from the factory. Brunswick has never produced a table with ProCut pockets until the later GC4's and that was for tournament use only, and with thicker pocket shims. Even the GC5 tournament editions are 4 9/16" corner pockets.

Glen
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I must have been running into shimmed pockets a lot.There was a 4.5x9
at the 7-11 in NYC that didn't look shimmed .The pockets were max 4.5.
Played on 5x10's at the grand old rooms from NYC to Frisco but they were
probably shimmed.In Detroit at the Rack,the 5x10 was maybe less than 4 in.
Played on a lot of 9 and 8 foots (old style) that had 5 in. to 5.5 pockets.

Never played on a deep shelf till the 80's.With a ball locked in the side and
the cue ball froze on the same rail,you could see less than 20% of the ball.
I thought that was disgusting.I had an edge gambling on these pockets
'cause i played trap snooker....but i still didn't like them.
 
Travis3c said:
All i can say is if Oscar Dominguez can run 112 balls on a 3.5 in table then 4 in pockets shouldnt matter. Hell i havent come close to that number yet on a 5 in pocket table. i do realize that there are certain shots in straight pool that requires a bigger pocket but I look at it as i missed my position to that ball. But what do i know. Im just a nobody who just loves the game.
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Wow, that's strong! Ernesto and Oscar set up my Anniversary with 4 inch pockets and the best I run is 49 in straight pool. I love my pockets and wouldn't change. It forces you to focus. No slacking. I find that I HAVE to be relaxed to play on them and that's a good thing.
 
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