Are you referring specifically to Manny from Steinway, or room owners in general?
ABR Special Report - French Press Conference
- Thread starter ABR
- Start date
Are you referring specifically to Manny from Steinway, or room owners in general?
Some good points being made by several contributors. In particular, JCIN has made some points that should be looked at as being at the heart of the matter and should be responded to by those whose actions have been questioned.
Either those involved acted with integrity or they have not and it would appear that some have not. I would like to see the questions JCIN has raised answered and I appeal to Al, in particular, to do so.
Al, it is time for you to weigh in; I listened as you pitched these matches during Turning Stone with the excitement of a carnival pitchman as you repeatedly declared that these titans of pool would be matching up for big bucks. When did you know that this was not the case and the match was simply going to be an exhibition where we mere fans should be still be thankful to pay for the privilege of watching two top professionals play? One of the participants, Dennis, has justified his going along with this by saying he just wanted to play and that, in spite of the greatly reduced pay day, he still played hard, the other participant, KO, has not, to my knowledge, said if he also played his hardest; doesn’t matter, the match was under false pretences. Anyway, how do you justify it?
Al, simply put, you were the one driving the advertising and looking to pump up the pay per view numbers with over the top hyperbole along with screen shots of the big event posters. You then should respond to your customers, past, present and future, as to what you knew, when and, most importantly, did you then attempt to cover it up so as to protect the PPV?
The same questions should be answered by Steinway as the door take and food and beverage sales would certainly benefit from the hype being generated. I do not expect that Steinway will weigh in on this after the (in hindsight) embarrassingly effusive notice that team French was now synonymous with Steinway billiards; unless they still do not know it was not as advertised. I see that the poster and event are still posted as the originally advertised, $20,000 on their site and facebook.
Both DO and JF have commented on this and also the dealings between them and much of it is, and should be, between them. Regardless of what anyone thinks of what they have said, good on them for not ducking and actually responding. Only DO has referred to his match with KO becoming, what was essentially an exhibition, by indicating he felt it was all right to mislead the paying customers because he would play hard. JF has indicated he had almost nothing to do with this match (DO vs KO) other than to bet on the outcome. This seems to leave Al and Manny as the principal promoters of the match and I think that it is incumbent upon them to respond to the concerns of the fans who paid the live gate and PPV under a false impression.
I can see these threads sliding away as the whole Denis/Ko match from Steinway slide further under the rug. Just don't forget to let them know what you think of their next PPV''s with your wallet. Johnnyt
PS: The match was a week ago and Steinway or UpstateAl haven't and won't come on where they advertised it to fess up. Do they really think they can just go on with business as usual?
PS: The match was a week ago and Steinway or UpstateAl haven't and won't come on where they advertised it to fess up. Do they really think they can just go on with business as usual?
I Just got through this entire thread from page 4 and I feel like I just ran a marathon. I'm mentally and emotionally exhausted. :sorry:
"I just wanna play football, Jerry"
- Frank Cushman ("Jerry Maguire" 1996)
"I just wanna play football, Jerry"
- Frank Cushman ("Jerry Maguire" 1996)
I think for anyone to say that he was promoting a fake match would imply that he knew it was fake since the beginning and continued to promote it. No one knows when he knew, if he knew, and what he tried to do about it except Al and some people who were actually involved in this debacle. And without actual information we're all just speculating.
Sure, it'll be nice if he came on here and told his side of the story but I don't think he as an obligation to do so as so many seem to think. And there's so many people screaming for his head for this one mistake when all he's done previously was promote pool positively.
I think, like everyone involved, he got into a bad business dealing with John French. It's my understanding that on the FREE NAPL stream he had over this weekend he mentioned that he also is out money that he cannot recoup from the cancelation of the DO/SVB match or with his dealing with John French.
Maybe he got scammed too. Who knows? That's my point.
Sorry but that is not how business works. When you are quick to put your name on something in the business world, you do so knowing that good or bad, you must own the outcome.
Maybe Al did know in advance or did not, either way as a business owner who had financial gain/involvement in the product, he should have to answer to his customers plain & simple.
I don't always agree with Johnny but people need to stand up & show they will not tolerate this bs & that message can only be sent via their wallet.
Oh but he does. This is the same place that he advertised the match on and now we have some questions with regards to what we actually paid for. No one to date has inferred that Al was complaisant in initial lie. Most of us think that at some point before the match it was found out and he probably had a front row seat to the whole soap opera. Otherwise I suspect he would have come here and cleared the air. The lack of communication speaks volumes.
Question:
If the SVB vs. DO match was still on, do you think he would be here advertising the upcoming epic battle?
Come on Al. Simply spill the beans. The alternative is too expensive in Integrity points.
If you promote X and then find out it is actually Y you have an obligation as soon as you know it is Y to disclose that.
As to your point? The only reason "Maybe he got scammed too. Who knows?" is that the guy isn't saying.
I suppose its possible Al didnt know what was going on. I just find it a little hard to believe since I knew what was going on two thousand miles away before the match ended. Its difficult for me to believe a guy sitting twenty feet from the table didnt have the same line I did.
All he had to do was say "There are backer problems so to save the match this is what we are doing. Anyone who would like a refund please contact me. Now on to the match."
Thats it.
But instead its been deleting posts and now the turtle routine. Its a shame because Al does do a lot for the game. The whole "I was just a streamer I didnt know" does not pass the smell test though.
Correct me if I am wrong but I am assuming it is implied that Al has deleted posts from his Facebook page or group. If so, that speaks volumes & definitely does not pass the smell test!
It's not implied - it's a fact.
Hell Manny allowed a TV show to be broadcast in his pool room with the basis being the Top 10 players in NYC.
Everyone should listen to John French's side of the story. I believe what he says to be true.
For more than 20 years now I have helped and supported many world class players to play in big tournaments. Plenty of times I have taken nothing but on the occasions that I have made money the deal was that I took care of travel, hotel and entry fees.
These were deducted from any winnings and the balance was split 50/50 with the player with no contract, only a handshake.
But if anyone decided hat they should have a right to know what our arrangement was I would have told them to mind their own f******* business.
Forum frequentees do not have a Divine Right to Full Disclosure unless those involved agree to do so.
These pseudo challenge matches are almost at the end of their lifespan specially now that people can no longer be sure that they are genuine.
These were deducted from any winnings and the balance was split 50/50 with the player with no contract, only a handshake.
But if anyone decided hat they should have a right to know what our arrangement was I would have told them to mind their own f******* business.
Forum frequentees do not have a Divine Right to Full Disclosure unless those involved agree to do so.
These pseudo challenge matches are almost at the end of their lifespan specially now that people can no longer be sure that they are genuine.
You are comparing apples to oranges
or bitter lemons to sour grapes Watchez
The only reason the Orcullo contract came up into public knowledge is because it became the basis for Orcullo and French backing out of the match with SVB - which was going to be sold as a PPV to the public. No one cared about the contract until it became public that the audience was going to be paying for something that wasn't.
Good for you.
Well that says a lot & you bring up an excellent point about that staged garbage show. I witnessed that show being filmed at one of the guest pool halls during the season. The match was a sham & the person being introduced as working there was a complete lie.
But I knew the show was fake from the get go but you had so many gullible people or flat out idiots who wanted to argue otherwise.
I'm not upset about this anymore, its same old same old.
I think for me, personally, what hurt was that "the fans" were being deceived and chopped up in this whole fiasco. We (the fans) aren't really used to that. We (the fans) are all used to seeing the backers being chopped up, savers, etc. That doesn't phase us one bit anymore.
But now, we (the fans) were directly lied to, and chopped up, via the ppv stream money and advertisements. That is what stung to me in retrospect.
*Edit, and the same would have happened with the Shane/Dennis match.
I think for me, personally, what hurt was that "the fans" were being deceived and chopped up in this whole fiasco. We (the fans) aren't really used to that. We (the fans) are all used to seeing the backers being chopped up, savers, etc. That doesn't phase us one bit anymore.
But now, we (the fans) were directly lied to, and chopped up, via the ppv stream money and advertisements. That is what stung to me in retrospect.
*Edit, and the same would have happened with the Shane/Dennis match.
300, ship it