ABR Special Report - French Press Conference

[sjm]

Both Al and Manny had to know well prior to the match. John French is taking all the heat (He deserves his share although it appears he had very little to do with the DO vs Ko match) and AL and Manny ain't saying diddly!

IMHO Al and Manny have severely tarnished their reputations and I doubt I will buy any PPV they are associated with unless they come forward and tell their side of the story rather than burying their head in the sand waiting for the debacle to go away.

Wedge

I do not agree that Manny and Al have any accountability here. Their role is to bring content of general interest to the public and not to investigate the finances that underlie any event. These are two guys who do an enormous amount for pool and both have, by every reasonable measurement, been great for our sport, making many sacrifices along the way.

The assumption that they were in on what has proven to be some deception is unfair to two guys who've proven their value and loyalty to their sport over and over. The suggestion that their silence somehow makes them accomplices in this regrettable bit of trickery is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I don't doubt for a moment that they were among those who were lied to by the organizers of the Ko/Orcullo match and that their motives did not extend beyond bringing a high quality match to pool enthusiasts.

 

[TATE]

Considering that Al did the advertising on this and advertised the 20K prize fund, if he knew that was no longer the case, during the stream it would have probably been a wise move on Al's part to mention that the match had financial issues and something to the effect they were "playing for less". But he's not responsible for the performance of the event. Hopefully lesson learned.

 

[Johnnyt]

If they were lied to, then come forward and tell us who lied to them. A lot of people would not have bought the stream if they knew they were really only playing for a small amount. Johnnyt

 

[BrooklynJay]

Are you guys serious? So, in protest, are you guys not going to watch any of the number of FREE streams Upstate Al puts on or is it just the ones you'll have to pay for? it's both right? because you wouldn't want to be called a hypocrite right? Unless Al come clean first right? :thumbup:

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think Al is a great guy and has contributed much to pool through free streams. On occasion he does PPVs because he has to pay the bills like all of us. I will continue to support Al and I doubt we will see him getting involved with any BS down the road and he will certainly be more cautious when getting involved in these bigger matches.

 

[Wedge]

Tha point is

I do not agree that Manny and Al have any accountability here. Their role is to bring content of general interest to the public and not to investigate the finances that underlie any event. These are two guys who do an enormous amount for pool and both have, by every reasonable measurement, been great for our sport, making many sacrifices along the way.

The assumption that they were in on what has proven to be some deception is unfair to two guys who've proven their value and loyalty to their sport over and over. The suggestion that their silence somehow makes them accomplices in this regrettable bit of trickery is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I don't doubt for a moment that they were among those who were lied to by the organizers of the Ko/Orcullo match and that their motives did not extend beyond bringing a high quality match to pool enthusiasts.

On the third day of the match Al was still posting here on the live stream page that the match was $20K in the middle. Do you really believe that Al or Manny didn't know by day 3 that they were only playing for $5K. If they did they should have told PPV customers. That is my point. Sorry if folks do not agree with that type of transparent advertising.

 

[watchez]

I do not agree that Manny and Al have any accountability here. Their role is to bring content of general interest to the public and not to investigate the finances that underlie any event. These are two guys who do an enormous amount for pool and both have, by every reasonable measurement, been great for our sport, making many sacrifices along the way.

The assumption that they were in on what has proven to be some deception is unfair to two guys who've proven their value and loyalty to their sport over and over. The suggestion that their silence somehow makes them accomplices in this regrettable bit of trickery is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I don't doubt for a moment that they were among those who were lied to by the organizers of the Ko/Orcullo match and that their motives did not extend beyond bringing a high quality match to pool enthusiasts.

On the third day of the match Al was still posting here on the live stream page that the match was $20K in the middle. Do you really believe that Al or Manny didn't know by day 3 that they were only playing for $5K. If they did they should have told PPV customers. That is my point. Sorry if folks do not agree with that type of transparent advertising.

Correct and afterwards - Manny posted how French was the Moses, Noah, Jesus and Grand Pubha of pool to come.

When TAR was around - JCIN posted and conveyed to the players numerous times - if he ever caught a player involved in a dump on a match they streamed they would be outed and banned from any future streams. He didn't limit his role to simply streaming content to the masses. This is called credibility.

 

[jrackman]

I think Al is a great guy and has contributed much to pool through free streams. On occasion he does PPVs because he has to pay the bills like all of us. I will continue to support Al and I doubt we will see him getting involved with any BS down the road and he will certainly be more cautious when getting involved in these bigger matches.

Lenny I agree with you 100 percent. But these keyboard judge's and jurors just have to be heard. This is why AZB has lost a lot of good poster's here. jmho

 

[jay helfert]

Say 2 players agreed on a game and the money is posted. Then half way through the match when the score is tied one player decides he's in a bad game and quits. Do you feel this player owes the other player any money?

What do you think? Say two guys meet in a bar and agree to play Eight Ball for $10 a game. In the middle of the first game one guy quits because he doesn't like the layout of the table. Does he owe the other guy any money?

 

[DTL]

......................

 

[jay helfert]

That's what I thought.

So you'd also advise D.O. to pay R.M for the set he walked out on, right?

That's none of my business unless he asks me.

 

[DTL]

...................

 

[BJTyler747]

That's what I thought.

So you'd also advise D.O. to pay R.M for the set he walked out on, right?

IIRC ... I believe in the case of R.M., Jay actually offered to make Rob whole on the $500 buyout which Jay and others considered reasonable.

 

[Banks]

But it's incidents like this that cause some to form a negative opinion when it comes to your good friend D.O. As a "Father" figure (and giant in the pool world ) I'd think you'd quickly discourage this behavior as it will only tend to hurt him down the road.........esp when a good portion of his income is from gambling matches.

Iirc, Jay did call Dennis on that and RM had decided to let it go.

 

[DTL]

..................

 

[spartan]

Why is/was all the stream money in John French's wife's PayPal account? Johnnyt

They probably tot they can get millions of viewers like boxing , MMA and run away for good to some faraway islands. When they only got about $7500 , they cancelled their getaway tickets and refunded the $7500

Holy Witch Hunt Batman! I think Jerry and Mike don't need to have any concern with this whole debacle.

As for Al, he just streams matches, and is not a pool promoter. He should, possibly, take a little responsibility for the lack of transparency on the details of the DO/Ko match. But, overall, he is one of the good guys. JMHO.

Great , now we are witch hunters. We should round up the spectators, doormen, raibirds, streaming crew and anyone , remotely involved with the event and start assigning blame. Let us also not forget Obama and the Pope.
I want no part of such a witch hunt
On other hand, I will be very interested in a John French hunt.
I will bring the hanging rope, meat cleavers, M16, cyanide, bazooka, darts, stones, shotgun, Magnum. Did I leave out anything ? Muahahaha !

 

[Nick B]

Upstate is definitely a good guy. I guess he didn't want to make a huge uproar over the money in the middle issue. I dont see the point of trying to crucify him like some of the people in this thread. It wasnt like they had intended to mislead anyone. It's just that Ko's team came up short on the money. Not that I'm faulting Ko. Shit happens...

I've watched plenty of his FREE streams on the weekends. Its high quality and he dedicates endless hours for pennies to provide the streams.

Now for the Dennis/Shane match. French had full intentions of misleading everyone from the get-go..

I'm not looking for a witch hunt. He was in the center of this and can validate who was in control.

1. Did Dennis setup the match?
2. Did he want to hide the new finance details?
3. Was French in this deal or just hanging around?

It will clear up a lot and probably tip the scales on whether DO was a victim. Al was in a bad spot. It's difficult being a voice of truth when everyone is saying sushhhhh and it's going to be negative financially.

“Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.”
― C.S. Lewis

 

[Rateking]

The common denominator in all of this does seem to be UpstateAl.

I wonder if he convinced french and dennis that they could make BIG numbers from the ppv, spawning the idea?

 

[JCIN]

I believe Upstate Al gets a fee and some of the PPV. Not sure what Manny gets for them using his room.

All I know is that these two guys have done a lot of good things for pool prior to this debacle (Al: Turning Stone, numerous FREE streams - Manny: Many pro and Amateur events with decent added money) and I would hate for people to start questioning their integrity or forget all the good they have done because they happened to get into a business deal with John French.

If they dont want their integrity questioned they shouldnt promote fake matches. Its really that simple for me. Because someone does something good doesnt mean when they do something jacked up they get a pass. This was blatant. Tell people one thing, do another and cut up the PPV.

I dont think Al is a bad guy. I think he just doesnt know what he's doing when it comes to PPV challenge matches. My guess is he got pressure from multiple sides and just went along saying "Well I'm only the streamer" I don't buy that line. He is benefitting from the sale of something thats not what its claimed to be. Bottom line. He should own it, learn from it and not do it again. Instead its just been deleting posts and silence.

The room owner has been promoting matches with fake numbers for a long time. Everyone knows it. Say its for this but each guy gets that. Its a joke. Just be honest about whats going on.

Doing free streams is easy. There is no pressure. When you start using your name to promote a product and take peoples money for that product you are in another world. The rules are different. All I want is honesty about what is being sold and accountability if things go off the rails.

 

[david(tx)]

If they dont want their integrity questioned they shouldnt promote fake matches. Its really that simple for me. Because someone does something good doesnt mean when they do something jacked up they get a pass. This was blatant. Tell people one thing, do another and cut up the PPV.

I dont think Al is a bad guy. I think he just doesnt know what he's doing when it comes to PPV challenge matches. My guess is he got pressure from multiple sides and just went along saying "Well I'm only the streamer" I don't buy that line. He is benefitting from the sale of something thats not what its claimed to be. Bottom line. He should own it, learn from it and not do it again. Instead its just been deleting posts and silence.

The room owner has been promoting matches with fake numbers for a long time. Everyone knows it. Say its for this but each guy gets that. Its a joke. Just be honest about whats going on.

Doing free streams is easy. There is no pressure. When you start using your name to promote a product and take peoples money for that product you are in another world. The rules are different. All I want is honesty about what is being sold and accountability if things go off the rails.

I've not followed this closely but it seems these are 1 on 1 matches ,the players are getting a fee to play and it is a win win for all involved except for the fiction of the amount in the middle.

If players really want to play for money they can do it without a camera there , so who approaches who ? I know you can see what i can't and that is where is there really that much money in it for the streamer ?Somebody has to trust somebody to hold the money in the middle . Knowing whose holding would shed a little light.