Anyone else think the inter state ivory ban is dumb?

The_JV

Local_Pro
ok so answer me this....

There are two tusks. One illegally obtained, the other from an elephant that died of natural causes....

Blah blah blah, yada yada... two ferrules are in circulation. Which one is illegal and how do you determine it from the other...?
 

David in FL

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
ok so answer me this....

There are two tusks. One illegally obtained, the other from an elephant that died of natural causes....

Blah blah blah, yada yada... two ferrules are in circulation. Which one is illegal and how do you determine it from the other...?
You don’t. But you can‘t always know for certain that the nice used watch that you just bought wasn’t illegally obtained either, can you? I think we agree that banning watches wouldn’t make sense...

In the case of ivory, we can require that cue makers who use ivory obtain it through a process that ensures that it was sourced responsibly, that they maintain the records to prove that, and that each cue/shaft with ivory is accompanied by documentation to show the source.

Don‘t throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
You don’t. But you can‘t always know for certain that the nice used watch that you just bought wasn’t illegally obtained either, can you? I think we agree that banning watches wouldn’t make sense...

In the case of ivory, we can require that cue makers who use ivory obtain it through a process that ensures that it was sourced responsibly, that they maintain the records to prove that, and that each cue/shaft with ivory is accompanied by documentation to show the source.

Don‘t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Well if you cared enough you could run the serial number of that nice watch and at the least discover if it had been stolen or a replica.

But that's kinda the point. When it boils down to it. How do you determine what chunks of material are legal or otherwise, and how much effort as a consumer do you put into doing so...? You can't and you don't. So the only other option from a government stand point is to control it's distribution. This really isn't something worth complaining about. Endangered animal bone does not make or break the build of a cue, or anything else for that matter.

As far as a cue builder is concerned. All they need to do is build with what stock they have on hand and sell it off within the state. If they really want to cover their asses they could keep records of those sales, and who bought them from where.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have three cues and I have no idea if they have ivory. I don't disagree with the ban but cues built pre-ban should be grandfathered. If the leftists ban the internal combustion engine I'm sure it will only apply to new cars.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Some states have tried to mandate that inoperative vehicles over a certain age be confiscated & scrapped.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wouldn’t be so sure. Some states have tried to mandate that inoperative vehicles over a certain age be confiscated & scrapped.
At one time I would have called that impossible but I'm not so sure any more.
 

MJB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You don’t. But you can‘t always know for certain that the nice used watch that you just bought wasn’t illegally obtained either, can you? I think we agree that banning watches wouldn’t make sense...

In the case of ivory, we can require that cue makers who use ivory obtain it through a process that ensures that it was sourced responsibly, that they maintain the records to prove that, and that each cue/shaft with ivory is accompanied by documentation to show the source.

Don‘t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Your Florida boomer world of “everything is so simple if you just do as I say” is fascinating. So basically....just so you can justify having ivory in your cue that serves no purpose.....you want to create a whole new bureaucracy to show which ivory was legal. Documentation does nothing to dissuade poachers and can easily be forged, but hey....at least you get your ivory inlays! That baby needs to be drowned in the bath water.
 

MJB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
David is trying to help you learn about basic economics and what banning a thing does, vs. outlawing human actions. Reading some Mises might help your understanding.

He may be an old fart, but he's smart. A guy oughta look into what he says.


Jeff Livingston
No, Jeff Livingston....he’s just an old fart.


Not Jeff Livingston
 

David in FL

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
No, Jeff Livingston....he’s just an old fart.


Not Jeff Livingston
An old fart who is a very successful businessman.

Who, believe it or not, is as concerned about animal cruelty as you or anyone else. But who understands that there are better ways to manage our natural resources than simple, ignorant “bans”...

Listen to, and learn from those more experienced than you, and you’ll get there one day. I did...
 

Black-Balled

He Rides the Skies
Silver Member
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
see where that might apply to this quote; "Proving what one has or has sold is legal is nearly impossible."
What are you going on about?

Do you think the court that tried ernie had no jurisdiction, or is it that a defendant shouldn't provide a defense?
 

Black-Balled

He Rides the Skies
Silver Member
IOW, if we farmed elephants for ivory there would be plenty of elephants and ivory.
But reality...

I worked for a place that did grow elephants and we spent a LOT of time in court over it.

(Not I, personally...that required top-notch lawyers)

Juice might not be worth the squeeze, though I do love the way my 2 ivory-ferruled shafts play...
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What are you going on about?

Do you think the court that tried ernie had no jurisdiction, or is it that a defendant shouldn't provide a defense?
The updated SUPER strict rules didn't go into effect until after EG's arrest but he still would have had to prove that he bought it prior to the 1990 cut-off date. I don't see how he was robbed of due process. Cuemakers have known the rules on ivory use for years. I remember when Verl Horn loaded up just prior to the 1990 deal. He bought a bunch of tusks and proceeded to make a bunch of ivory loaded cues. https://www.cornerstonecues.com/product/verl-horn/
 
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jayman

Hi Mom!
Silver Member
Wow, it's so simple but I'll try again. ivory is all legal unless proven otherwise. The burden on proof is on the accuser. Simple enough?
I like elephants too! If I have 500 tusks and for arguments sake they are pre ban the government will go nuts trying to make me prove it. good so far? It is there burden to prove. it's not my burden! if you understand english you get this concept. if not go to school and take English class. Simple thought melting minds. Kinda funny actually. THIS USED TO BE AMERICA. now it's a place for love and sunshine... I hate poachers killing elephants. I don't care for government overreach cuz it's for the children an the elephants an the earth an my ASS.
 

HQueen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I guess nobody wants to see the ivory handle cues I’m building lol.
Some states are so incredibly stupid they have even banned mammoth ivory. Worried those mammoths are gonna go extinct? I think it happened thousands of years ago.
 

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
So I guess nobody wants to see the ivory handle cues I’m building lol.
Some states are so incredibly stupid they have even banned mammoth ivory. Worried those mammoths are gonna go extinct? I think it happened thousands of years ago.
Mammoths still exist, last time I was in Oregon I saw a Bigfoot riding one along the Umpqua river....true story.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, it's so simple but I'll try again. ivory is all legal unless proven otherwise. The burden on proof is on the accuser. Simple enough?
I like elephants too! If I have 500 tusks and for arguments sake they are pre ban the government will go nuts trying to make me prove it. good so far? It is there burden to prove. it's not my burden! if you understand english you get this concept. if not go to school and take English class. Simple thought melting minds. Kinda funny actually. THIS USED TO BE AMERICA. now it's a place for love and sunshine... I hate poachers killing elephants. I don't care for government overreach cuz it's for the children an the elephants an the earth an my ASS.
How's this for simple: you have to have documentation of when you bought it. Go to school if you can't understand that. Its been that way since '90 when the first ban went into effect.
 

jayman

Hi Mom!
Silver Member
How's this for simple: you have to have documentation of when you bought it. Go to school if you can't understand that. Its been that way since '90 when the first ban went into effect.
How's this for simple: you have to have documentation of when you bought it. Go to school if you can't understand that. Its been that way since '90 when the first ban went into effect.
So everyone with an ivory inlay or bit of ivory in a cue or piano or whatever needs a paper trail? No. "This" is RETARDED. The micro managing is out of control and out of touch with reality. Really the they're just punishing the evil people who dare to have some legitimately. Not to mention make a whole new class of criminals to make themselves feel good.
Yes I know about the Ivory ban and that after the ban you had to begin a paper trail to document legal possession of newly purchased materials.
Frankly, If a poacher is caught, they should be tried and if convicted then they should be punished for breaking the law. Any ivory they harvested should be sold to fund the protection of the next animal. NOT destroyed. that's just sad and foolish. that money could go a long way to protect a living animal. It's already too late to save a dead animal. Betterto use everything you have to help the others. The brilliant lefty's are NOT helping anything as usual they are making everything they meddle in worse.
People grow tired of that. Common sense has all but disappeared. Oh well, Gotta go, I'm running late for my train to Hawaii
Take care everyone!
 

Cclark02

New member
Ivory ferrule are easy to keep clean. They're also really heavy and make the cb squirt like all get out. I like Tomahawk as far as modern stuff goes.
Have you played with Ivory? I believe the wood ferrule is just has good if not better. A life of an elephant is more important than a game.
 
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