I don't think it's the LO's who are overpaid, it's the big guys in St. Louis who act like Wall Street Bankers!
APA first place payout=JOKE
- Thread starter lukemindish
- Start date
I don't think it's the LO's who are overpaid, it's the big guys in St. Louis who act like Wall Street Bankers!
I think you are underestimating what a moron this LO is.
It's good standard business to make your customers happy or you will lose them. Anyone who plays in the APA is a customer and the customer is always right (at least they think so). The website is garbage and could not have totaled to a staggering value (I know because I designed the website for the company I work for). The scores are rarely updated. Again, the payouts are weak. And the guy does absolutely zero advertising.
Well the fact of the matter is the APA is a business and could really care less about its players aside from the fact they want their weekly dues
and the only reason the payout at all is to display the fact that u have a chance to win money and a trip to Vegas, but the reality is ur odds are about the same as hitting the lottery so consider it a loss till that happens
The APA is not set up or does it reward good play infact it does exactly the opposite of that how many teams have players they try to move up in skill level, let me answer that....000000000,
The so called equalizer system otherwise know as the National Treasure is not put in to make play even rather a excuse to move players up and create more teams as current teams find it impossible to stay intact unless god forbid they sand bag but we know that never happens
one stroke
and the only reason the payout at all is to display the fact that u have a chance to win money and a trip to Vegas, but the reality is ur odds are about the same as hitting the lottery so consider it a loss till that happens
The APA is not set up or does it reward good play infact it does exactly the opposite of that how many teams have players they try to move up in skill level, let me answer that....000000000,
The so called equalizer system otherwise know as the National Treasure is not put in to make play even rather a excuse to move players up and create more teams as current teams find it impossible to stay intact unless god forbid they sand bag but we know that never happens
one stroke
Our BCAPL league operates as follows:
1. Bar table league
2. 5-person teams
3. $5 weekly dues
4. Away team pays 50 cents per game. Home team pays 25 cents per game. 25 games total per match.
5. Sponsor pays $50 per team. Normally used to pay team entries to the Nationals (as listed below).
6. Payouts:
1 team entry ($250) to the Nationals for every 5 teams in the league. This season we have 12 teams. This means league will pay team entry for 2 teams.
League secretary gets paid $2.25 per team per week. With 12 teams equals 22 weeks of play.
After paying must pay expenses all left over monies get paid as follows:
First place team bonus = 3% of league fees (Approx $250 last year)
Second place team = 2% of league fees (Approx $125 last year)
Third place team = 1% of league fees (Approx $65 last year)
League members get paid for each ball they make during league. I think last season that was approx 12 or 13 cents per ball.
We do have MVP awards for highest average Male and Female. We also have most runs award for Male and Female. We also have individual award pins (RO and Perfect Nights).
Finally there are traveling trophies for the top 3 teams.
Of course we have the normal operating costs (paper, ink, scoresheets, etc).
Our league usually leaves approx $100 in the bank at the end of the season to get the following season up and running.
Hope this makes sense......
1. Bar table league
2. 5-person teams
3. $5 weekly dues
4. Away team pays 50 cents per game. Home team pays 25 cents per game. 25 games total per match.
5. Sponsor pays $50 per team. Normally used to pay team entries to the Nationals (as listed below).
6. Payouts:
1 team entry ($250) to the Nationals for every 5 teams in the league. This season we have 12 teams. This means league will pay team entry for 2 teams.
League secretary gets paid $2.25 per team per week. With 12 teams equals 22 weeks of play.
After paying must pay expenses all left over monies get paid as follows:
First place team bonus = 3% of league fees (Approx $250 last year)
Second place team = 2% of league fees (Approx $125 last year)
Third place team = 1% of league fees (Approx $65 last year)
League members get paid for each ball they make during league. I think last season that was approx 12 or 13 cents per ball.
We do have MVP awards for highest average Male and Female. We also have most runs award for Male and Female. We also have individual award pins (RO and Perfect Nights).
Finally there are traveling trophies for the top 3 teams.
Of course we have the normal operating costs (paper, ink, scoresheets, etc).
Our league usually leaves approx $100 in the bank at the end of the season to get the following season up and running.
Hope this makes sense......
This is a valid concern in any league.....this should be delivered up-front once the number of teams is accurate....maybe the guy was expecting an increase in his child support and had to wait it out
To the OP, don't play league if you want a pay-out......if you're interested in money, match up or play tournaments.....most leagues are social, and if you have a good operator, they deserve money for all the effort they put in each week....APA is a huge network, so it comes with a lot of expenses.....
That's $25 more than our TAP league pays out per session. Have you not paid attention to all the info available to you here on AZ? You shouldn't be shocked.
Then why don't you start a league and give everyone some cheddar? Trust me, you'd change your tune in a heartbeat. At least you'd stop ill-informed posts on the internet.
Or are you too lazy to try and do something to help the Pittsburgh pool scene? You don't just want someone to GIVE you the cheddar right? You ARE willing to work for it???
I haven't seen many leagues where you can do much better than make your money back. The best I've seen are in house leagues. I was in a BCA league and money was held out to fund the winning team's trip to Vegas at the end of the year. Session payouts were lower as a result.
I haven't played in a league for about a year but if I do decide to get back in it will be ONLY to have fun because there isn't enough money in it to worry about.
Good luck to you.
Lance Link
Banned
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=194032
Captain's meeting at the beginning of each season. Everything is upfront and on the table.
Each player pays a $30 league sanction fee every fiscal year. $15 of that goes to the BCA, $15 goes to the LO. No mystery surrounding where the money goes (off the top of my head, my $$ could be slightly off, but you get the idea).
The LO gets buy-in from the team captains regarding different topics (averages, handicaps, playoffs, payouts, point system), and finds solutions that appease just about everybody.
There's a printout included with the payouts (shown below) showing how much $$$$ was collected, and how it was payed back... No surprises.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone, but why does it seem that APA players are 'shocked' when the payout (if there is one) at the end of the season is so low ?
If a contractor gave my bathroom a makeover, I'd be curious why he's charging me $350 for the same vanity I found at the local DIY home improvement center for $125 ?
I simply like to know where my money is going...
Captain's meeting at the beginning of each season. Everything is upfront and on the table.
Each player pays a $30 league sanction fee every fiscal year. $15 of that goes to the BCA, $15 goes to the LO. No mystery surrounding where the money goes (off the top of my head, my $$ could be slightly off, but you get the idea).
The LO gets buy-in from the team captains regarding different topics (averages, handicaps, playoffs, payouts, point system), and finds solutions that appease just about everybody.
There's a printout included with the payouts (shown below) showing how much $$$$ was collected, and how it was payed back... No surprises.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone, but why does it seem that APA players are 'shocked' when the payout (if there is one) at the end of the season is so low ?
If a contractor gave my bathroom a makeover, I'd be curious why he's charging me $350 for the same vanity I found at the local DIY home improvement center for $125 ?
I simply like to know where my money is going...
Attachments
First of all MIKEY, I am not the one who took on the task of owning an APA franchise, so no, I am not willing to work for it. As far as the Pittsburgh pool scene, you need more than 1 person to grow a sport. People are just not into it around here mister ill informed. I've posted a link on facebook for people to post local tournaments and events in the Pittsburgh area. I think that's taking a step in the right direction. And yes, I invest the cheddar, so I should get some cheese back!!!
FL9ballboy
Registered
league business
first off leagues are in business to make money not donate there time to run a league, weather it be APA, BCA, or TAP. also figure it out you said your LO was left with 4900.00 for the summer, so divide 4900 by 3 months of summer thats 1633 dollars a month for the 3 months of summer and out of that they pay advertising and operating expenses so your LO is not benefitting as much as you think. i wish you luck on whichever league you choose but dont switch leagues thinking you will make more money on the others cause YOU WONT, pool leagues are for entertainment only, thats why i dont understand the negativity towards leagues but whatever people are going to say what they want on this message board.
also it would be GREAT if people could stop coming on here and bashing leagues no matter which one it is. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT PLAY IT!!!
there is a reason APA is the largest pool league in the U.S so if they were that bad how are they still in business?? i dont think people realize the disservice to pool that they are doing with all the negativity and bickering over which league is better and why.
theres my 2 cents on the subject.
first off leagues are in business to make money not donate there time to run a league, weather it be APA, BCA, or TAP. also figure it out you said your LO was left with 4900.00 for the summer, so divide 4900 by 3 months of summer thats 1633 dollars a month for the 3 months of summer and out of that they pay advertising and operating expenses so your LO is not benefitting as much as you think. i wish you luck on whichever league you choose but dont switch leagues thinking you will make more money on the others cause YOU WONT, pool leagues are for entertainment only, thats why i dont understand the negativity towards leagues but whatever people are going to say what they want on this message board.
also it would be GREAT if people could stop coming on here and bashing leagues no matter which one it is. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT PLAY IT!!!
there is a reason APA is the largest pool league in the U.S so if they were that bad how are they still in business?? i dont think people realize the disservice to pool that they are doing with all the negativity and bickering over which league is better and why.
theres my 2 cents on the subject.
The LO is entitled to make all the money for whatever work he/she puts into it because it's THEIR league. If you don't like it, save the money you were going to invest in that league and instead fire it into some gambling sets--- that way, you have 100% payback - right? Better yet, start your own league, do all the work, and then pay out all of the money in protest. Before you know it, you'll be like, "G'damn... this is a lot of work and I'm not making any $."
So, in short, if you don't like your ROI for your league---- invest it into gambling. Regardless what anyone says on here... leagues are for personal improvement, social interaction, competition and FUN. They're not meant to be an investment on your weekly dues, win/lose.
You are 100 percent right. I should not have been shocked. But it would be great if every league had a print out like this where the money is going. Like you i just want to know where all the money is going. Thanks for the post.
League ops
League pool is cheap entertainment for people that usually go to bars anyway and drink beer. It's quite like fishing. Sometimes you can't tell who is fishing and who is standing by a body of water drinking beer! I do disagree with league play not raising your skill level. Most bar players never played defense before playing league, rarely played matches, and never played at some higher level. It is not a place for 9 & 10 speeds. They are bored playing people much less skilled. If you don't like Playboy magazines don't read it. If you don't like creamed peas don't eat them, and if you don't like league pool do us all a favor and don't play.
League pool is cheap entertainment for people that usually go to bars anyway and drink beer. It's quite like fishing. Sometimes you can't tell who is fishing and who is standing by a body of water drinking beer! I do disagree with league play not raising your skill level. Most bar players never played defense before playing league, rarely played matches, and never played at some higher level. It is not a place for 9 & 10 speeds. They are bored playing people much less skilled. If you don't like Playboy magazines don't read it. If you don't like creamed peas don't eat them, and if you don't like league pool do us all a favor and don't play.
It's a forum dude. People are fully entitled to their opinions.
Also, I beleive maybe you need to read the previous posts a little more thoroughly. Again, the LO does nothing. No advertising, the website is garbage, and I don't know why I'm typing all this again just go back and read it!
The APA is a joke, (as far as expecting any payouts, alot of time and effort for running the biz won't allow for much...taxes, payroll and all the other stuff) if you're going to play pool anyway just start your own cash league and work the details out between all captains. Let the captains make the rules and make a %100 percent payout back to the players. Everyone has a printer and you can print out your own score sheets, get the bar involved to add a little to the pot and throw a party.
Besides if you can't play some honest pool between friends then you don't need to play.
Set up your session...12-20 week or what ever the captains vote on
Figure how to handicap or a round robin.....we've been playing long enough we know who's playing at what speed.
Figure place payment.....50 30 20 or whatever the captains vote on.
If you're going to play among friends then keep your money among friends, you're going to play anyway so get the APA mentality out of your head and play.
What I mean by APA mentality is you can do your own thing and do it in a way you're not applying the APA handicaps, etc. You cut the sandbaggin by voting on the players speed between captains at the beginning and at the end of each session and not in between or after having a good night.
Create balanced teams so the competition is close. Swap players per session to keep things interesting.
Create your own point system
Example 5 players five wins 5 points, the leaders at the end of the sessions get paid....most points wins and this cuts sandbaggin
Keep in mind these are just some Ideas and you can still play the APA all you want.
My problem with the APA is how LO's will manipulate handicaps to split teams and rush skill levels, this kills the fun for folks who just moved up to a level they can't win at.
Sorry but I have seen rankings with a 20% win rate move up, I can see a 75% win rate or higher. I have also seen first time players move up after their first loss and this is manipulating. Skill rankings are very inaccurate from being operator manipulated to sandbaggin (player manipulation) that it creates a political system within a fun sport.
You will get numbers to where you have to forfeit and when you can't find lower ranked players you have to kill the team. We started a league around here and the APA LO came around nosing and acting like an ass when it was none of his business, more than half of the players were still playing on or had teams with him but after what they witnessed they have no more intentions to play in (his organization).
I'm not really bashing but pointing out the common problem because If I choose to play and pay then that's my business. Even when creating an in-house league there are plenty of bugs to work out but you can eliminate sandbaggin or spot jockeying and everyone gets to play lights out.
Lost connection before I was done.
Besides if you can't play some honest pool between friends then you don't need to play.
Set up your session...12-20 week or what ever the captains vote on
Figure how to handicap or a round robin.....we've been playing long enough we know who's playing at what speed.
Figure place payment.....50 30 20 or whatever the captains vote on.
If you're going to play among friends then keep your money among friends, you're going to play anyway so get the APA mentality out of your head and play.
What I mean by APA mentality is you can do your own thing and do it in a way you're not applying the APA handicaps, etc. You cut the sandbaggin by voting on the players speed between captains at the beginning and at the end of each session and not in between or after having a good night.
Create balanced teams so the competition is close. Swap players per session to keep things interesting.
Create your own point system
Example 5 players five wins 5 points, the leaders at the end of the sessions get paid....most points wins and this cuts sandbaggin
Keep in mind these are just some Ideas and you can still play the APA all you want.
My problem with the APA is how LO's will manipulate handicaps to split teams and rush skill levels, this kills the fun for folks who just moved up to a level they can't win at.
Sorry but I have seen rankings with a 20% win rate move up, I can see a 75% win rate or higher. I have also seen first time players move up after their first loss and this is manipulating. Skill rankings are very inaccurate from being operator manipulated to sandbaggin (player manipulation) that it creates a political system within a fun sport.
You will get numbers to where you have to forfeit and when you can't find lower ranked players you have to kill the team. We started a league around here and the APA LO came around nosing and acting like an ass when it was none of his business, more than half of the players were still playing on or had teams with him but after what they witnessed they have no more intentions to play in (his organization).
I'm not really bashing but pointing out the common problem because If I choose to play and pay then that's my business. Even when creating an in-house league there are plenty of bugs to work out but you can eliminate sandbaggin or spot jockeying and everyone gets to play lights out.
Lost connection before I was done.
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Not every APA LO operates that way. I've been fortunate enough to be on a team that won our division 2 out of three times this past year. Our 8-person team split just over $800, giving us a little over $100 a piece. So that has happened to me twice, in my first year of playing... I guess I'm a little spoiled.
(The second time we won was really a matter of good fortune meeting good timing. We only got into the playoff via the wildcard drawing, and then proceeded to have two good weeks in a row. At least good enough to win 3 out of 5 each week, just enough. phew. Then lost to that same team in our Tri-Cup to keep us from going to states, sigh. We got the money, they get a chance to go to Vegas. I guess it worked out.)
We're fortunate that our LO gives a decent payout. (BTW, the second place team gets just over $400 to split, each session, as well.) But the argument remains, if you got into playing league for the money, you got into it for the wrong reasons. Even if your LO payed out like ours does, too much has to go right to ever "expect" to get any money back. I certainly get my $8 worth of entertainment value from my night of league play. god knows we won;t be getting any of that first or second place money this session, the way we're playing lately!
When your LO is running a league with 250+ teams state wide $800 to your division is NOT a good payback. BUT as we know if you are playing a league for the money, and that means any league not just the APA then you are playing in the wrong game.
This is not my teams first go round. We have taken first place 3 out of the past 4 sessions. The pay out has just never been this bad. Im not bashing the APA because it is a big orginization that has gotten a lot of people involved in the game. And by no means am i in the APA because i want to make money. I play because i enjoy being with my best friends and also enjoy being competitive. My reason for starting this thread was just to find out if things like this happen in other leagues. I dont have a problem with the APA in general, just the LO. It just doesnt seem right that so little money is given back to the players. JMO.