assembly methods

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I'm in the marine industry so I really like west systems one of their distributors told me about g/flex and I have been using it for 6 months but have not tried it in a joint but I have cored with it I like keeping similar bonding materials but screwing up and fixing them ,experimenting is how we develop accepted by one does not always mean its going to be accepted by another
 
A University Materials testing lab in 2006 analyzed 6 different glues for strength of bond on three different woods Yellow glue came out on top for the strongest bond, 30 minute epoxy was 2nd and Gorilla Glue was dead last.

The best custom makers have relied on filled epooxy for the 'A' joint for years and continue to do so todayyellow glue will work but requires additional thought and technique

I built some cores with Gorilla Glue but nevernused it for anything else.
 
Just for the record, I don't use Gorilla Glue at the A Joint. Rick likes it, I prefer Epoxy. Just not 30 minute Epoxy.

It's up to you to decide which method works best for you.

I know others use 5 minute epoxy to glue their rings up. I did when I first started and after several months, you can see a ring where the ring meets the cue in those cues. I use West 205 to glue my rings up. I don't care how long it takes. Others say that they've used G5 for years with no issues.

Hi,

I use West System with a 1/2 inch 13 tpi on my A- Joint Cues. I prefer to build cues that have full cores front to end using Gorilla Glue.

My point was using Epoxy for coring can be problematic as the slow acting thinner stuff can soak in and the fast acting thicker stuff tends to piston out. Either way you get fill gaps.

I have made samples out of most of the products out there and when cut in cross section the Gorilla Glue does not leave gaps due to the expansion factor. All of the epoxy samples seem to leave void areas when coring. Epoxy is great for gluing where pressure is applied to an area like an A-Joint or when clamping pressure is in action on rings ect. Unfortunately when coring, clamping the ID and OD is not an option.

Rick

Using West System is great for A-Joint gluing as it's viscosity and slow cure time allows the liquid material to equalize the hydraulic pressure via the relief flats on the threads and the v grooves on the tenon.

The fast stuff can build up hydraulic pressure that can get trapped.

Take a cue with hydraulic potential on a airplane with a non pressurized baggage area and see what happens.

IMG_3251.jpg
 
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^
I can't find that one Paul but I did read it one time.

This one might be of help.
http://www.jcrocket.com/adhesives.shtml
Or this,
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/chemistry.html
I'd implore everyone who has not spent a few or several nights researching epoxies and glues to start doing it.
Nothing is really black and white when it comes adhesives.
Know your application. Woods, metals and bones are dissimilar matters.
 
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I'm just starting, but I would never want to trust glue of any kind for the structural integrity of my work. After working in aviation, I've seen all kinds of adhesives fail even after thorough surface prep. Odd things happen, so I will never trust an adhesive 100%.
 
Making cues=Masochism.


that pretty much sums it up.


lots of good information in this thread.i do have some 5 minute epoxy that bonds at over 5000psi,which for those that don't know is more than double the best 5 minute epoxies.i was over-joyed when i found it and got the specs sheet from the manufacturer.i like using 5 minute on collars,rings and joint pins.

so i get the epoxy in the mail and start using it.i'm installing a fairly large ring pack and butt sleeve and before i even get to the butt sleeve it starts setting up.turns out it is more like 1 minute epoxy.now i only use it for the joint pin or just a single ring and plain collar on a basic cue.i don't have time to do numerous rings.

i forget the name of it,but if anyone is interested i will post the info here after i get to the shop.it is actually awesome 5 minute epoxy if you are just doing a collar or pin or something you don't need much time on.

for coring and a-joint i use laminating epoxy only with very tight tolerances,like a West system but it's stronger,called MVS i think.
 
I'm just starting, but I would never want to trust glue of any kind for the structural integrity of my work. After working in aviation, I've seen all kinds of adhesives fail even after thorough surface prep. Odd things happen, so I will never trust an adhesive 100%.

Hi,

You can't make pool cue without glues. You need to do some research into different glues if you want to make cues.

Like welds, when most glue joints fail it is not the glue, it is the transition zone next to the glue, ie. the wood fails first. Impact loads on pool cue last micro seconds and do not produce serious shear forces that would threaten the cue or the glues.

Rick G.
 
not necessarily...

There was one of the guys, Doug Patrick I believe, who threads a dowel through the entire core of the cue. This, is probably the only other way besides threading just the tenon like Bob Hunter.

What you could do is to try your theory and see how it works.

There is another way...

Don't know if I wanna post it though..trade secrets and all that...

Jaden
 
A University Materials testing lab in 2006 analyzed 6 different glues for strength of bond on three different woods Yellow glue came out on top for the strongest bond, 30 minute epoxy was 2nd and Gorilla Glue was dead last.

The best custom makers have relied on filled epooxy for the 'A' joint for years and continue to do so todayyellow glue will work but requires additional thought and technique

I built some cores with Gorilla Glue but nevernused it for anything else.

Are you referring to something like this?
https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.html
 
OK

So this is what I have gleaned from this round:

[...] gorilla glue is the best because of its total gap filling ability.

Again.... thanks for the great words of wisdom and the abuse.

Kim


That is the least understood and worst reason to think Gorilla Glue is a good choice for the A-joint. Gorilla Glues ability to "fill gaps" is not only NOT a benefit, it's actually a detriment, for the following reasons:

1) The entire idea of using a "gap filling" glue at the A-joint encourages the belief that this doesn't have to be a dead-nuts fit - hell, just make it sloppy so it's easy to put together and let the glue fill it in. So, IMO, it encourages imprecise, amateurish machining. Also,

2) Gorilla Glue is nothing more than high-density polyurethane foam. When it expands to "fills" gaps, the only thing it fills them with is gas (read: AIR). The structural rigid plastic (polyurethane) content does not - indeed, CANNOT - increase in volume; only the result of off-gassing, which creates hollow bubbles, can make that gooey shit expand ("fill gaps") - and when it does expand it becomes structurally weaker. In fact, the more it expands the weaker it gets – Gorilla Glue’s own product literature states that. Also,

3) The end result of Gorilla Glue expanding is that it become a very light, very weak foam. Surely everyone reading this who uses the stuff has noticed that the material squeezed out of one of their gappy joints, when cured, is fragile foamy crap that can be easily picked away with a fingernail. If that seems like a good material to hold your A-joint together then why not just use old styro coffee cups or packing peanuts?

I know, I know... resident expert at every trade under the sun - Rick "scdiveteam" - contends it's great stuff because it has about a million-year "half-life" (a term he uses without even understanding it). Well Styrofoam last virtually forever too. You can break that crap up into a million tiny little beads and it still won't go away. Ever. But I wouldn't want to hold my cues together with it. We’re talking about using this soft, foamy stuff inside what is essentially a 1 ½-pound battering ram that will spend its entire life being slammed against a solid phenolic 6-ounce weight.

There are many high-grade structural epoxies that will bond a well-fitted A-joint together virtually forever. I prefer West System epoxy, and I use it by saturating each half (socket and tenon) first, allowing it to soak in for several minutes. I then use it within the actual joint as I screw the two halves together. In a very closely machined fit (NO "gaps"), with strategically placed pressure release grooves, the correct amount of epoxy will produce the best joint possible. Gorilla Glue has no place in this application.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On a related note,


[...] Using West System is great for A-Joint gluing as it's viscosity and slow cure time allows the liquid material to equalize the hydraulic pressure via the relief flats on the threads and the v grooves on the tenon.

The fast stuff can build up hydraulic pressure that can get trapped.

Take a cue with hydraulic potential on a airplane with a non pressurized baggage area and see what happens.

That won't be necessary, Rick... I already know what will happen - NOTHING. For a few very simple and obvious reasons that you apparently can't grasp:

1) Any epoxy used in joining a cue together will have long ago cured by the time the cue is finished and taken on a plane. So there is no "fluid" within the cue, which means no fluid dynamics involved and therefore NO "hydraulic potential" at all. The very idea that a cue could somehow “ build up hydraulic pressure” is ridiculous - I mean it's serious, SERIOUS nonsense.

2) If there is any likelihood within the A-joint construction for hydraulic forces to cause damage it would certainly happen at the exact time those forces were being generated – which is during construction. That’s the only time there are fluid dynamics at play; if the cue survives the assembly process without suffering internal hydraulic-related damage then it will NEVER experience such internal forces in the future. This is not a matter of opinion; it’s a matter of FACT.

3) Since hydraulic action CANNOT occur with a cured, solid epoxy, let's consider the related idea that an air pocket trapped inside the cue could somehow cause a problem within a "non pressurized baggage area", and that if the pressure became low enough it could cause the cue to fail somehow. Well, that pressure would be in the form of an external vacuum, and even if it were a perfect vacuum - meaning zero air pressure - the total internal force on the cue could not exceed 14 psi.

The important factor here is the "psi" part, which refers to "Pounds [per] Square Inch". Now, I can't imagine the worst cuemaker having internal gaps in his cues equaling even a small fraction of one square inch (well, maybe Rick does...), but for argument's sake let's say that our imaginary cue has a full one-square-inch surface area of internal gap in the A-joint. And let's also say that the cue began its baggage-hold journey at sea level, and that the pilot defied all airline policy AND the known laws of physics, and flew the plane to the very edge of the earth's atmosphere.

The result of that impossible scenario would be that the A-joint of the cue, with it’s HUGE one-square-inch of gap surface-area would be subject to a total force of 14 lbs – presumably straining to force the A-joint apart. As a simple thought experiment, imagine taking two 1-gallon water jugs and tethering them to the butt end of a cue butt. Now imagine holding the cue vertically and lifting straight up until you are suspending the jugs off the floor. Are you worried your A-joint might pull apart? Shit, two 400-pound Sumo wrestlers couldn’t pull a cue apart that way. The very notion that some kind of hollow or epoxy-filled pocket inside a cue could "build up hydraulic pressure" and do so is ridiculous.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

TO SUMMARIZE:

A) Machining your A-joint fit in such a manner as to have gaps that need filling is very poor workmanship, and using Gorilla Glue to “fill” those gaps is even worse. No one who understands the nature of adhesives and how Gorilla Glue works would think otherwise.

B) It is not physically possible for a cue to “build up hydraulic pressure” after it’s adhesives have cured, under ANY circumstances – especially being placed in an “unpressurized baggage area”. The very notion is laughable.

TW

 



That is the least understood and worst reason to think Gorilla Glue is a good choice for the A-joint. Gorilla Glues ability to "fill gaps" is not only NOT a benefit, it's actually a detriment, for the following reasons:

1) The entire idea of using a "gap filling" glue at the A-joint encourages the belief that this doesn't have to be a dead-nuts fit - hell, just make it sloppy so it's easy to put together and let the glue fill it in. So, IMO, it encourages imprecise, amateurish machining. Also,

2) Gorilla Glue is nothing more than high-density polyurethane foam. When it expands to "fills" gaps, the only thing it fills them with is gas (read: AIR). The structural rigid plastic (polyurethane) content does not - indeed, CANNOT - increase in volume; only the result of off-gassing, which creates hollow bubbles, can make that gooey shit expand ("fill gaps") - and when it does expand it becomes structurally weaker. In fact, the more it expands the weaker it gets – Gorilla Glue’s own product literature states that. Also,

3) The end result of Gorilla Glue expanding is that it become a very light, very weak foam. Surely everyone reading this who uses the stuff has noticed that the material squeezed out of one of their gappy joints, when cured, is fragile foamy crap that can be easily picked away with a fingernail. If that seems like a good material to hold your A-joint together then why not just use old styro coffee cups or packing peanuts?

I know, I know... resident expert at every trade under the sun - Rick "scdiveteam" - contends it's great stuff because it has about a million-year "half-life" (a term he uses without even understanding it). Well Styrofoam last virtually forever too. You can break that crap up into a million tiny little beads and it still won't go away. Ever. But I wouldn't want to hold my cues together with it. We’re talking about using this soft, foamy stuff inside what is essentially a 1 ½-pound battering ram that will spend its entire life being slammed against a solid phenolic 6-ounce weight.

There are many high-grade structural epoxies that will bond a well-fitted A-joint together virtually forever. I prefer West System epoxy, and I use it by saturating each half (socket and tenon) first, allowing it to soak in for several minutes. I then use it within the actual joint as I screw the two halves together. In a very closely machined fit (NO "gaps"), with strategically placed pressure release grooves, the correct amount of epoxy will produce the best joint possible. Gorilla Glue has no place in this application.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On a related note,




That won't be necessary, Rick... I already know what will happen - NOTHING. For a few very simple and obvious reasons that you apparently can't grasp:

1) Any epoxy used in joining a cue together will have long ago cured by the time the cue is finished and taken on a plane. So there is no "fluid" within the cue, which means no fluid dynamics involved and therefore NO "hydraulic potential" at all. The very idea that a cue could somehow “ build up hydraulic pressure” is ridiculous - I mean it's serious, SERIOUS nonsense.

2) If there is any likelihood within the A-joint construction for hydraulic forces to cause damage it would certainly happen at the exact time those forces were being generated – which is during construction. That’s the only time there are fluid dynamics at play; if the cue survives the assembly process without suffering internal hydraulic-related damage then it will NEVER experience such internal forces in the future. This is not a matter of opinion; it’s a matter of FACT.

3) Since hydraulic action CANNOT occur with a cured, solid epoxy, let's consider the related idea that an air pocket trapped inside the cue could somehow cause a problem within a "non pressurized baggage area", and that if the pressure became low enough it could cause the cue to fail somehow. Well, that pressure would be in the form of an external vacuum, and even if it were a perfect vacuum - meaning zero air pressure - the total internal force on the cue could not exceed 14 psi.

The important factor here is the "psi" part, which refers to "Pounds [per] Square Inch". Now, I can't imagine the worst cuemaker having internal gaps in his cues equaling even a small fraction of one square inch (well, maybe Rick does...), but for argument's sake let's say that our imaginary cue has a full one-square-inch surface area of internal gap in the A-joint. And let's also say that the cue began its baggage-hold journey at sea level, and that the pilot defied all airline policy AND the known laws of physics, and flew the plane to the very edge of the earth's atmosphere.

The result of that impossible scenario would be that the A-joint of the cue, with it’s HUGE one-square-inch of gap surface-area would be subject to a total force of 14 lbs – presumably straining to force the A-joint apart. As a simple thought experiment, imagine taking two 1-gallon water jugs and tethering them to the butt end of a cue butt. Now imagine holding the cue vertically and lifting straight up until you are suspending the jugs off the floor. Are you worried your A-joint might pull apart? Shit, two 400-pound Sumo wrestlers couldn’t pull a cue apart that way. The very notion that some kind of hollow or epoxy-filled pocket inside a cue could "build up hydraulic pressure" and do so is ridiculous.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

TO SUMMARIZE:

A) Machining your A-joint fit in such a manner as to have gaps that need filling is very poor workmanship, and using Gorilla Glue to “fill” those gaps is even worse. No one who understands the nature of adhesives and how Gorilla Glue works would think otherwise.

B) It is not physically possible for a cue to “build up hydraulic pressure” after it’s adhesives have cured, under ANY circumstances – especially being placed in an “unpressurized baggage area”. The very notion is laughable.

TW




Not to mention that the cue is wood. And as wood is not exactly a good air tight sealing material, any pressure differences between the cargo bay of the airplane and the internal cavity of the a joint would be very quickly dissipated by just bleeding through the wood.

Royce
 
Not to mention that the cue is wood. And as wood is not exactly a good air tight sealing material, any pressure differences between the cargo bay of the airplane and the internal cavity of the a joint would be very quickly dissipated by just bleeding through the wood.

Royce

Reminds of that story about a woman's fake boobs exploding during a plane ride.
 
TW,

Everyone knows that the tenon needs to be a tight fit and you can not let the end grain touch within the fit of of the A Joint. I have not used the A Joint method to build my last 85 cues. When I did A Joints I used 105 / 207 west system exclusively. I would not use GG for an A Joint.

For the last 4.5 years I have used gorilla glue to gap fill the annulus between my laminated dowel and the cored wood of the blank. I hand sand the dowel 4 to 5 inches at a time to get the interference fit I require. Before that, I turn a 1" dowel to .750 and it is straight within .002 end to end before I start the hand sanding and then use a small V file to install .030 deep grooves every 1/2 " to act as foundation keyways. After buttering the dowel I give the dowel am atomized spritz of Demineralized Water that is free of chlorine, fluoride and such. The expansion that occurs with in the tight gap is the perfect solution in my view.

I have never had a cue warp or buzz with this method.

Many people I know who core and use expansion poly.

Thanks you appreciating me as a resident expert here but I am not the only one who uses this method. I queried him and Joe Barringer gave me the low down about 5 years ago and I refined my method based on his initial advise.

Although you can use epoxy for core glue ups, I only use that for smaller length parts with the biggest size a 4" butt sleeve. For 12" length there exists the possibility to have a straiten or gap that can cause a buzz after the cue is complete and played with. I am sure you will protest that statement and that is your right and prerogative.

I built 10 test units with marine epoxy , cut cross sections and rip cut those units. There were small lateral gaps exposed even after buttering the ID and OD. These tests suggested that it was not the way to go for me. My friend Darrin Hill told me when he was using the Marine Epoxy for coring, about 1 in 20 developed a buzz. He also changed to poly glue and never had a buzz again.

Better living through chemistry.

JMO,

Rick
 
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Royce, I have followed your many posts & this one is no exception. Although, I don't think any of us would deliberately machine parts with a large gap, that would need an expanding glue to fill that void. That said, I can only speak from my own knowledge & expieriences. I use epoxies with a metal fastener as a part of the joinery. I just worked on one of my Qs that is 21 yrs old. I know the owner & can say he does take good care of this Q. The Q is still straight & there has been no movement at any of the joints. I feel that this bolsters my beliefs in jointery, the way I have always done them...JER
 
TW,

Everyone knows that the tenon needs to be a tight fit and you can not let the end grain touch within the fit of of the A Joint. I have not used the A Joint method to build my last 85 cues. When I did A Joints I used 105 / 207 west system exclusively. I would not use GG for an A Joint.[...]

Rick,

I did not say you used Gorilla Glue for an A-joint. I was addressing a different member's post regarding that point. So no need to defend your religious fervor about using Gorilla Glue to core cues.

The issue I DID address with you was the ludicrous statements you made regarding your claim that fast-curing epoxy can "build up hydraulic pressure that can get trapped [inside a cue]", your suggestion that a finished cue can contain "hydraulic potential", and that having such a cue in a "non pressurized baggage area " can result in some sort of spectacular (and presumably catastrophic) result.

These statements of "fact" by you are SO over-the-top preposterous that I would like to see you defend them here in the same thread where you posted them. Surely you can do that... can't you?

TW

 
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assembly

On a side note. When's the last time you heard of an unpressurized baggage compartment on an airplane. Usually not temp controlled. But the "tube" is
pressurized.
 
There is also the question of balance to consider.
If you are not placing a metal screw in the "A" joint how do you make up the weight loss to get the cue to balance as if it had one?

The screw in the "A" joint provides pre-load while the epoxy sets up.
After the epoxy sets in the "A" joint the screw is only needed there for weight.
If the epoxy fails the screw will not keep you from knowing about it.

There are many ways to build a cue and I have found the best method is the one that gives you the best results.

Willee
 
There is also the question of balance to consider.
If you are not placing a metal screw in the "A" joint how do you make up the weight loss to get the cue to balance as if it had one?

The screw in the "A" joint provides pre-load while the epoxy sets up.
After the epoxy sets in the "A" joint the screw is only needed there for weight.
If the epoxy fails the screw will not keep you from knowing about it.

There are many ways to build a cue and I have found the best method is the one that gives you the best results.

Willee
Adding weight on threaded wood tenon is cake.
Not much risk of buzzing either .
The threads are there for axial force.
The epoxy is there just to fill the little gaps in those threads.
 
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