Been playing a monster

[12squared]

So, lately I've been playing Chip Compton one pocket. He's giving me 10 to 4 and its embarrassing but I keep coming back for more. I hope I'm improving but dag these guys are unbelievable. A year and a half or 2 years ago I was playing James Walden a lot, and I play Joey Gray now and then but mainly play Chip right now.

I think everyone should play top level players in your area. It's going to cost a little money, but I think you will have an opportunity to experience a level of play most don't understand.

My goal is to become an "A" level player. Don't know if I'll get there but I keep trying. Gabe Owens is around every once in a while. I haven't ever asked him to play but I will in the near future.

So does this make me a sucker?

Steven

You're basically paying for lessons, nothing wrong with that. Plus I would guess they will answer your occassional questions. Now try to win that money invested back & more playing the people you used to play even with, but with your new skill set & knowledge, you should beat. Heck, take Chip & Joey out to dinner once in a while, too. (they might even let you in on their action once in a while) :thumbup:

Dave

 

[sfleinen]

That all sounds wonderful and I would have agreed with you for the first 15 years I played and gambled with champions, the first $90,000 lost gambling with better players, because "that's the way to get better". But all that "improvement" he's getting from watching a great player making moves on him can be done by watching as a bystander or on dvd. You take a guy playing with a 10-4 spot against a monster player for two years and put him up against a guy who's spent that time practicing the shots he's seen on video and moving up through the ranks against slightly better players and he'll destroy the guy who's been playing the champion. I doubt many people would agree with me, including myself a couple years ago, but it's scientifically proven....in my new book "God?why do I feel like a sucker even though everyone keeps telling me this is the way to improve??" $19.99 paperback

I heartily agree with this, Jesse. The "train that knows it can, knows it can, knows it can" CAN'T, if it never gets out of the trainyard and routed onto the tracks. That is, you can't improve, if you don't get to the table to practice the shots you learn by watching. And, sometimes you may be *so* concerned with getting an opportunity at the table, that you quickly forget the "lessons" you're supposedly being taught while in the seat, that you only concern yourself with damage control.

I bought into that whole "the only way you'll learn, is by getting beat" business way back, but after a while, I realized that BALANCED PRACTICE is more beneficial than "engaging my wallet every time I get onto the table." You have to have time to practice, to do shots over and over until you get them ingrained into muscle memory. You also need time to practice fundamentals, which you'll NEVER do when engaging your wallet (that, my friends, is not practice time -- that's SHOW TIME!).

-Sean

 

[Scott Lee]

Steven...Nope, it doesn't make you a sucker. I agree with your post 100%...with the caveat that the 'sucker' player has the tools to teach themselves how to make their stroke more accurate and consistent, and the diagnostic skills to know how to correct errors that are still going to happen, even after you have a great stroke. You have the tools and (hopefully) the diagnostic skills. You're now acquiring "playing knowledge" from these great players...and in a game that is not easy to learn. I congratulate you, and say "Keep it up...as long as you have the time, opportunity, and $$$ to play with!" It never hurts to do a followup with your primary instructor...and I know that we will when the time is right for both of us! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

So, lately I've been playing Chip Compton one pocket. He's giving me 10 to 4 and its embarrassing but I keep coming back for more. I hope I'm improving but dag these guys are unbelievable. A year and a half or 2 years ago I was playing James Walden a lot, and I play Joey Gray now and then but mainly play Chip right now.

I think everyone should play top level players in your area. It's going to cost a little money, but I think you will have an opportunity to experience a level of play most don't understand.

My goal is to become an "A" level player. Don't know if I'll get there but I keep trying. Gabe Owens is around every once in a while. I haven't ever asked him to play but I will in the near future.

So does this make me a sucker?

Steven

 

[Scott Lee]

Great post! Tap, tap, tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hell no you're not a sucker.... as long as you're keeping the bets as cheap as you can, or cheap depending on your financial situation. One man's cheap might be 2 dollars a game, anothers might be 20.00 a game.
But keep it cheap, because you're going to lose the majority of the time.

It's hard to find good players that will play you cheap and give up a lot of weight, but that is the ideal situation to learning if you can find someone.

It doesn't have to be a champion, because you've got a lot to absorb and a lot of basics to learn. Watch how the better players are moving balls to their side or near their hole and leaving you froze to a ball or making sure they hide you from seeing those balls. They are protecting them.

Watch how they shoot shots that don't have to necessarily be a shot in their pocket... sometimes it's designed to move balls from your side, to your hole and protect them all at the same time.

Watch how they carom off balls with the cueball to get where they need to go, or carom object balls off others to send them to their hole.

Watch how they use distance and the cueball on the rail to their advantage. They will tease you with a shot, but you'll be 8 ft from the ball, almost on the rail and you'll be straight in so you can't do anything with the cueball and there will be hell to pay if you miss. You need to learn how to control yourself from shooting those.

Watch how they leave you uptable seemingly with a shot at your hole, but when you get down there, you notice there is no clear path to the pocket.. They put you there on purpose.

Watch all the short rail banks down there near the pockets. Watch what shots bank, which ones don't, what speeds you need to hit them to avoid kisses. Watch the english they use and whether its high or low.

Watch how they take balls out of the pocket and which ones can be taken out and which ones can't. Watch what english they're using, what kind of stroke they're using.

Watch how they sometimes pass up shots you think they would take and choose something else.. figure out why they did that. Ask them.

Enjoy your lessons! The more you learn, the more you will get hooked on this game of all games!

There's nothing more satisfying then when you are down by a lot of balls and you think there is no way you can win, that if you be patient and tighten the noose on them, pick up a ball here and there, they scratch.. all the sudden you're back in the game. I've came back several times from 7 to -1 and won the game. One of those games took about 90 mins to finish, but I was happier then hell and proud I stuck to the game plan.

 

[JesseAllred]

I heartily agree with this, Jesse. The "train that knows it can, knows it can, knows it can" CAN'T, if it never gets out of the trainyard and routed onto the tracks. That is, you can't improve, if you don't get to the table to practice the shots you learn by watching. And, sometimes you may be *so* concerned with getting an opportunity at the table, that you quickly forget the "lessons" you're supposedly being taught while in the seat, that you only concern yourself with damage control.

I bought into that whole "the only way you'll learn, is by getting beat" business way back, but after a while, I realized that BALANCED PRACTICE is more beneficial than "engaging my wallet every time I get onto the table." You have to have time to practice, to do shots over and over until you get them ingrained into muscle memory. You also need time to practice fundamentals, which you'll NEVER do when engaging your wallet (that, my friends, is not practice time -- that's SHOW TIME!).

-Sean

Sean, you've earned a rep! I like your train yard analogy. I didn't think anyone would agree with me. My point is for everyone who is laying on the good vibes and encouraging others to continue with the "lessons;" That route works also, but it takes a lot more money and a lot more time than a simpler one, which is practicing, doing one-pocket drills and using the money you would have lost for in-depth REAL actual lessons over one-pocket strategy. If you're never running over 4 balls you're only learning how to beat a monster giving up crazy weight. You're not learning to play correct one-pocket strategy anymore than playing 9ball against Efren will prepare you for your local monthly tournament.

 

[real bartram]

So, lately I've been playing Chip Compton one pocket. He's giving me 10 to 4 and its embarrassing but I keep coming back for more. I hope I'm improving but dag these guys are unbelievable. A year and a half or 2 years ago I was playing James Walden a lot, and I play Joey Gray now and then but mainly play Chip right now.

I think everyone should play top level players in your area. It's going to cost a little money, but I think you will have an opportunity to experience a level of play most don't understand.

My goal is to become an "A" level player. Don't know if I'll get there but I keep trying. Gabe Owens is around every once in a while. I haven't ever asked him to play but I will in the near future.

So does this make me a sucker?

Steven

nope
thats how you get better.

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, you've earned a rep! I like your train yard analogy. I didn't think anyone would agree with me. My point is for everyone who is laying on the good vibes and encouraging others to continue with the "lessons;" That route works also, but it takes a lot more money and a lot more time than a simpler one, which is practicing, doing one-pocket drills and using the money you would have lost for in-depth REAL actual lessons over one-pocket strategy. If you're never running over 4 balls you're only learning how to beat a monster giving up crazy weight. You're not learning to play correct one-pocket strategy anymore than playing 9ball against Efren will prepare you for your local monthly tournament.

Jesse, thank you. I learned a long time ago the "myth" that, every time you step up to a pool table, "you must have a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the line," otherwise, "you're wasting your time -- why even bother?"

Don't get me wrong -- I *do* gamble, and I utilize that opportunity, as I mentioned earlier, as SHOW TIME! I use it to test my skills, to see where I'm at. I do NOT use it as "practice time." That "practice time is only worthwhile with a champion while my wallet is on the line" is a huge myth, and sorry to say, a lot of suckas buy into it every minute. I firmly believe that you use that time to gauge yourself. Measure yourself. Maybe pick up a shot or two you've not seen before. (And along those lines, where's your f'ing notebook? Do you really think you're going to remember the exact position of the balls, and what aim-point / stroke speed / english was being used? But sadly, I see a lot of these "gotta-have-something-on-the-line-every-single-time-I-find-myself-at-the-table" types without some form of shot documentation -- no notebook, no pencil, nothing. The knowledge they're supposed to be absorbing -- i.e. committing to hard copy for absorption into muscle memory during practice time later -- is flying over their heads faster than the balls go into the pockets.)

Whenever I played superior players, I had a little memo book -- those little flip-up types with a short bowling-score pencil rigged with a pocket clip that I pulled off a Bic pen, and outlines of a pool table already drawn on the pages (the short pencil w/ pocket clip neatly attached inside). Something that came up that opened my eyes, I whipped that thing out, flipped it open, scribbled for a few seconds, and put it away into my cue case's pocket. Then, in the spirit of my BALANCED PRACTICE, I'd whip that thing out again, and review. Sometimes it lay open on the table while I practiced certain shots. That did way more for rocketing my game up, than merely "having a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the line every time I played, otherwise it didn't matter" flawed way of thinking).

My point is not that having a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the line is bad or flawed, but rather to balance it out. You're right -- the only thing you learn if you exclusively play with your wallet on the line, is how to handicap to make the game more even. Not to improve.

-Sean

 

[huckster]

Not a sucker

If you enjoy it and it doesnt hurt you or your family financially chalk it up as lessons best way to improve.

Reminds me of a local guy who would match up with the best area players at whatever stakes put a lil pressure on those players albeit ten dollar nine ball or hundred a game one pocket etc people made fun of him saying he keeps playing those guys like that he will be broke. Only issue with that was the so called sucker was worth around fifty million

 

["CaliRed".]

That all sounds wonderful and I would have agreed with you for the first 15 years I played and gambled with champions, the first $90,000 lost gambling with better players, because "that's the way to get better". But all that "improvement" he's getting from watching a great player making moves on him can be done by watching as a bystander or on dvd. You take a guy playing with a 10-4 spot against a monster player for two years and put him up against a guy who's spent that time practicing the shots he's seen on video and moving up through the ranks against slightly better players and he'll destroy the guy who's been playing the champion. I doubt many people would agree with me, including myself a couple years ago, but it's scientifically proven....in my new book "God?why do I feel like a sucker even though everyone keeps telling me this is the way to improve??" $19.99 paperback

Well... I certainly agree he doesn't need to be playing a champion as his sole matchups. I think he needs to mix it up quite a bit. He's supposed to be playing the champion, let's say 1 good 3 hour matchup a week, and the other times, he should either be practicing what he saw the champ doing to him and he should also be playing some matchups of people more his speed. This allows him to try and put what he's learned and what he's practiced into real game situations.

I know all about playing someone better then you, it can be counterproductive if you do it all the time. I know when I play a much better player, I"m going to be sitting down a lot in 9/10 ball or I'm going to be either watching him run balls in onepocket or be constantly shooting to not sell out after the trap he keeps putting me in.

That can put your confidence on pretty shaky ground. That's why it's important to play some people your speed, so you can get your confidence up and when you're trying out the things you learned early on in a game, chances are if you sell out trying them, the guy isn't going to run 8 and out. So you might give up 2 or 3 balls or 4 or 5 even... you still have a chance to come back and win.

I noticed he did mention it's been going on for 2 years. I believe that means that he is a gold star customer For that length of time, he best be only playing once every week or two. The pro isn't going to lose money, if he lost a set or two, you just got your spot re-adjusted, whether you lost 50 games at that spot.. you win a couple of times, you just lost one of your balls.

 

[Scott Lee]

huckster...Your story reminds of watching John Barton (several years ago) playing Buddy Hall some cheap ($10/game) one pocket at the Cue Club in Las Vegas. This was on the "tv" table, and a lot of folks were standing around the rail watching. One young guy standing next to me said to his friend, "Doesn't this 'idiot' know who he's playing?" I turned to the real idiot and commented, "He knows exactly who he's playing, and he will learn more playing a world champion in a couple of hours, than he might learn 'on his own' in 10 years of playing others." Buddy quit after 10 or so games, and class act that he is, John called a limo to take Buddy back to his hotel! I'd call that a SERIOUSLY good investment.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If you enjoy it and it doesnt hurt you or your family financially chalk it up as lessons best way to improve.

Reminds me of a local guy who would match up with the best area players at whatever stakes put a lil pressure on those players albeit ten dollar nine ball or hundred a game one pocket etc people made fun of him saying he keeps playing those guys like that he will be broke. Only issue with that was the so called sucker was worth around fifty million

 

[paksat]

You're right -- the only thing you learn if you exclusively play with your wallet on the line, is how to handicap to make the game more even

Not true, you learn how to play with pressure.

 

[JesseAllred]

Well... I certainly agree he doesn't need to be playing a champion as his sole matchups. I think he needs to mix it up quite a bit. He's supposed to be playing the champion, let's say 1 good 3 hour matchup a week, and the other times, he should either be practicing what he saw the champ doing to him and he should also be playing some matchups of people more his speed. This allows him to try and put what he's learned and what he's practiced into real game situations.

I know all about playing someone better then you, it can be counterproductive if you do it all the time. I know when I play a much better player, I"m going to be sitting down a lot in 9/10 ball or I'm going to be either watching him run balls in onepocket or be constantly shooting to not sell out after the trap he keeps putting me in.

That can put your confidence on pretty shaky ground. That's why it's important to play some people your speed, so you can get your confidence up and when you're trying out the things you learned early on in a game, chances are if you sell out trying them, the guy isn't going to run 8 and out. So you might give up 2 or 3 balls or 4 or 5 even... you still have a chance to come back and win.

I noticed he did mention it's been going on for 2 years. I believe that means that he is a gold star customer For that length of time, he best be only playing once every week or two. The pro isn't going to lose money, if he lost a set or two, you just got your spot re-adjusted, whether you lost 50 games at that spot.. you win a couple of times, you just lost one of your balls.

Yes. I respect and agree with you. What I don't agree with is how with your first post and other posters you all gave him the positive reinforcement that what he was doing was working and I don't think it is if the spot hasn't decreased in two years. He needs to change his approach, and your ideas would be great for him. But if people just hit him with a ton of positive feedback about losing for two years in a row with a big spot that's not helping anyone.

 

[Scott Lee]

Jesse...Respectfully, the "worth" of what gmanpoke is doing is strictly in the "eyes of the beholder"! It doesn't matter that you wasted (in your opinion) $90K trying to gamble to get better. If he likes what he's doing, and it doesn't hurt his family, then there's nothing wrong with it...which is exactly what I said in my earlier post. I stand by that.

But if people just hit him with a ton of positive feedback about losing for two years in a row with a big spot that's not helping anyone.

 

[Otterman]

OK, I'm in, too....

Yes. I respect and agree with you. What I don't agree with is how with your first post and other posters you all gave him the positive reinforcement that what he was doing was working and I don't think it is if the spot hasn't decreased in two years. He needs to change his approach, and your ideas would be great for him. But if people just hit him with a ton of positive feedback about losing for two years in a row with a big spot that's not helping anyone.

Although I DID say earlier it was $ well spent (as long as he's improving), I actually improved more watching Accu-Stats videos and playing a few hours a week than playing 4 hours a day and playing strong players. There's a TON to be learned watching the greats and listening to the pro's commentary. Incardona and Buddy Hall in particular provide a wealth of knowledge for 9 ballers; different position routes, the pros/cons of each route, just numerous little nuances they discuss can be very beneficial. The other big improvement came when I started video taping myself. The 1st time I watched it, I couldn't believe how much I moved on my shots. I really thought I was staying still. You only learn that with a good coach or a video camera.

Money play with a monster might be better utilized by an "A-" player to get better under pressure and forced to play sharper to keep up. Still OK as long as you can afford it and you enjoy yourself!

 

[Gmanpoke]

I appreciate everyone's response and feedback. Remember, my goal is to become an "A" player. And, I believe evaluation and analysis of my game and my approach to improving is a healthy part of the improvement process.

I really like the open and candid comments from Jess and CaliRed and the encouragement from Scott Lee and many others.

To give a little more detail about who I play and how I play. I've played James Walden about 5 or 6 times, but I haven't played him in quiet a while, he's just not around. I've played Joey a couple of times and I've played Chip maybe half a dozen times (we were not always gambling). So, over the last 2 years, I've probably averaged playing one of these monsters about once a month. Also, we play cheap. So, I'm never going to get a spot where I can win. Chip and Joey help analyze my strategy usually after I execute a shot. But, if they put me in a bad trap, I'll usually stop and tell them what I'm thinking of doing. They will tell me if my thinking is bad and even provide suggestions at times.

Now, as far as the spot not changing; believe me, I want nothing more than one of these monster to say "I can't give you that spot anymore".

Jesse, by you saying "the spot has not changed" assumes these guys haven't improved too. I've been playing Chip the most so I will use him in this discussion. I understand you may not be able to see Chip's game, but just look at look at what he is winning today versus what he was winning 2 year ago and tell me this young man is not improving. I'm not trying to start an argument, because I think you have some very good points, especially about confidence.

The last time Chip and I played, we played a total of 12 games and I finished down 4 games. I have a predetermined amount I'm willing to lose and when I hit it, I quite. If it take an hour to hit my limit then so be it, if it takes 4 hours better for me, I think.

I play many different levels of players. Some, I run over, some I get a little spot from and some I play even. As far as gambling goes, I would be perfectly happy never gambling again in my life, but the reality is the strong players will not play for free. I'm not going through this process to win a bunch of money at some point in the future. I'm going through this process because I love the game and I want to be the best I can possible be within the limitations of time.

As far as getting instructions and watching DVDs: in January 2010 I sought out and received instructions from (in my opinion) one of the best instructor in the world. I have to make a confession here. Scott, I've fallen down on my Mother Drills the last few months. I need to stay disciplined.

I do watch one pocket and rotation matches, but Jesse, would you agree that there are many methods of learning. Some people are visual while other can just read. While I can learn from these methods, the best way for me to gain an understanding and really learn is to roll up my sleeves and get after it.

Jesse, again, thank you for your candid comments. One of the main take away I have from this conversation is confidence. It's hard to play good without it. While there are many improvements needed in the fundamentals of my game, I wonder if its time to start incorporating the mental side of the game into my improvement process. Well, that's a discussion I'll need to have with my primary instructor at some point.

Good luck everyone.

Steven

 

[master9baller]

So, lately I've been playing Chip Compton one pocket. He's giving me 10 to 4 and its embarrassing but I keep coming back for more. I hope I'm improving but dag these guys are unbelievable. A year and a half or 2 years ago I was playing James Walden a lot, and I play Joey Gray now and then but mainly play Chip right now.

I think everyone should play top level players in your area. It's going to cost a little money, but I think you will have an opportunity to experience a level of play most don't understand.

My goal is to become an "A" level player. Don't know if I'll get there but I keep trying. Gabe Owens is around every once in a while. I haven't ever asked him to play but I will in the near future.

So does this make me a sucker?

Steven

If you know what you are in for and see the benefit of playing, I don't think that it makes you a sucker. Keep the sets as cheap as possible. Maybe other lesser players will see you playig and you can draw them into playing you.

 

[sixpack]

I think Jesse is right, but it's good to check in with top players now and then to see where you are.

Don't get me wrong, I think what the OP is doing is great, but I don't think it's the best way to improve.

My uncle, one of the most competitive people I know, was drafted by the white sox but declined to play because there was no money in it. Long time ago.

One time when he was about fifty he moved into a country club community and one of the top tennis players challenged him to a game of tennis. As an athlete, he thought he would beat him easily but he lost, bad, because he never played tennis.

So he spent three hours every day for the next couple of months practicing tennis hitting a ball agains a wall for hours until he really understood the mechanics of it and had mastered it. THEN he went back and beat the guy.

I guess my point is that champions and top competitors approach it differently from the average Joe. If you want to be an A player then you need to play Chip to see where you fall short—then work relentlessly on mastering your skills—bring in an instructor if you need to—then challenge him again.

I think by setting a bar and practicing relentlessly you'll progress much faster than if your only practice is butting heads with top players.

Also, as Jesse said, and from reading your posts, it seems like you accept losing when you play better players. That can become a destructive habit that will haunt you the rest of your days.

~rc

 

[measureman]

Danny Basavich donated untold $20 bills to east coast legend Neptune Joe Frady to learn how to play 9 ball. Worked out pretty good for both of them.

 

[The Saw]

Gman, you're on the right track IMO. If you can play champions affordable pool and your intent is to be a better player, and more specifically a better gambling player, it's worth every penny you invest..... I've done it since day one playing pool and don't regret a bit of it. I did the same thing playing golf when I was 13-14. I ended up being a 3 handicap playing golf within a year and a half. Had I just stuck to taking lessons and playing tournaments/league only, I doubt I would have broke a 10 handicap.

If you stick to playing non-champions what does it get you? You learn to act and react like a non-champion..... Did playing champions make me a champion? No, not even close. But it has made me think more like one and have a champion attitude. But the biggest advantage of all is I have NEVER been intimidated by an opponent ever playing pool..... No fear is worth a lot. Your favorites are Walden, Joey, and Chip. Mine were Bartram, Dee Adkins, Cory, and Howard Vickery. I still play Bart and Dee every chance I get. How much better someone plays is not an issue for me, if I feel I have made a good game the other guy has no chance... I may not play like a champion but I think like one.

Over the years I have heard guys that play my speed or lower talk about an a or even a b player and say "He plays GOOD!". I would always say "No, Buddy Hall plays good, this guy can't play a lick.....". That's not a slam on the a player, it's just reality......

 

[actioncentral]

10-4 is a huge spot to give up playing one pocket especially if you break good one game and put a ball in the jaws of your pocket. You should keep playing for what ever you can afford, you got to remember, if you win at this game, you will not be getting 10-4 for much longer. Play well and good for you for getting the nuts and playing a champion. That is a lot of work if you are only playing for 50-100 a game.