BIG Changes ahead for Pro Pool???

bfdlad

bfdlad

T-Wheels
Silver Member
As most of you know I am involved with Pro pool and Pro Pool Players. Over the past year at least I have been looking at the state of Pro Pool, trying to figure out exactly where it is and where I can place myself in order to maximize my exposure and maximize what I can to help further the game/sport and have the biggest effect on pool and billiards fans throughout the USA at least. The World may be a a tall order right now but maybe one day :)

What I have found is that the pro pool world is in utter confusion and in shambles. Nothing is really going well. I can go through a few of these an I am sure there id more to add to the list.

US OPEN - 9-Ball = One of the longest running and prestigious events in the world, some may disagree but I think US OPEN 9-Ball title is the same as winning a World title. This event has been struggling for a few years, many are today still uncertain will even happen this year. Non payment or slow payment have been a constant.

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS OVERSEAS = 2 events I believe were scheduled and then cancelled.

BONUS BALL= Obviously I can't leave this one out. So much uncertainty here. From what we can gather they are working on something wit BIG money behind it that will save it. Never the less it has been haunted by previous delays, contractor problems and non payment of players. Depending who you ask its will either be back stronger than ever or its done.

INFIGHTING = Constant battles, grudges and what some may call sabotage between top promoters in the industry.

SBE Pro Event = Another event that has been around for a while, went from $25k added to$7,500 added.

TUNICA SOUTHERN CLASSIC = From what I hear the turnout was low and had a possible effect on a multi casino deal and who knows if the think it will be worth it again.

So with just these events and productions what does it leave for the Pro Players to do for a living?? I know there are other events out there for the pros Like Turning Stone and the CSI Open events in Vegas. There is talk about those events possibly going away all together or being changes to invitational events. Who Knows. Will Badi do another Ultimate10-Ball?? again who knows. We know he missed a year before.

So really, what is left for the Pro players to attend in the next 12 months if all of this comes to pass?? On top of that how many players have the skill level to actually cash enough and consistanly enough to be able to eek out a living??

Based just on these points I have pointed out it tells me that the Pro pool world is in total free fall mode and needs HELP in a big way. I have said it before it needs STRUCTURE! it needs a leader to unify and help everyone work together but I just do not see that happening because too many of the current players will not work together. Maybe that's what the pro pool world needs, total collapse and implode. That will thin the heard not only for players but promoters too. This way there would be less people to fight with. I know I sound negative but I am looking at reality.

For me?? I am going to continue to do what I do. I am also going to work on new and exciting things to bring the pool and billiard enthusiasts. Although I am about the smallest fish in the billiard promoting pond I hop to reach out to the bigger fish in the pond for help, advice and a possible way to make a difference.

Again, I am sure there are plenty out there that disagree with this post but this is all my personal opinion from what I see.
 
All of the above sounds about right to me. As far as pool free falling out of sight, that might be a good thing in the end. Then start rebuilding it with people with new ideas. Rebuilding might be the only thing to save pro pool. Good luck to you in your future roles. Johnnyt
 
I agree with the free fall idea but I think ultimately it may need to fall all the way and bounce a few times and then start over.
 
Nice post bfdlad. I have this funny feeling that if BB were to have taken off, then the pool world would suddenly be alright.
Pool world in the dumps? No way, José! True, the pool world isn't rich, never was, but when you are working with little revenue sometimes we have to take breaks, whether it's a missed tourney, slow payouts, or reassessments of BB itself. (I sound very optimistic!). Well, I am optimistic about the pool world—why? Because for one thing, pool is not going away (how dare you say that JohnnyT! :)). There are too many great players and people behind the seen working and wanting to make money. If that desire lives on, so does pool. Second, pool has seen this trough before. Only this time our billiard industry knowledge-base runs very deep. I mean on a world wide level now.

There's nothing wrong with pool in Asia it's growing and will continue to grow. WE will learn and use from them what works in our local environment. We will also use what has worked in American pool industry. Believe me, Kevin Trudeau's short-lived efforts were worth something. It showed us what DOSN'T work. That's important knowledge to glean. Whether BB is successful is important for ALL of us. But IF it fails [AND I DON'T BELIEVE IT WILL] we have to look at it as a learning experience. The next innovator will come along and try it a different way.

I believe pool (in the U.S.) will get to where everyone wants it to. We just have to be patient and keep learning from our mistakes.
 
Some years ago wasn't there the Camel Pro Tour (or the Lucky Strike Pro Tour or the Bud, or some other corporate sponsor Pro Tour) and many of the pro player played on that all year long but then some things happened and another rival organization formed, I think it was called Professional Cue Sports inc or ltd, I think it was CJ's. and they began to develop an event schedule but Camel didn't want their players playing in the PCS events and nothing worked out and everything folded.
I dunno, maybe I'm remembering all wrong but it seems to me that as the union of pro players fractured the current state of Professional Pool (in the United States) started there. I'd love to see a new pro tour but I'd hate to see history repeat like that.
I think it's be great if everyone could get on the same page, but I don't really see it happening.
 
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Celophanewrap said:
Some years ago wasn't there the Camel Pro Tour (or the Lucky Strike Pro Tour or the Bud, or some other corporate sponsor Pro Tour) and many of the pro player played on that all year long but then some things happened and another rival organization formed, I think it was called Professional Cue Sports inc or ltd, I think it was CJ's. and they began to develop an event schedule but Camel didn't want their players playing in the PCS events and nothing worked out and everything folded.
I dunno, maybe I'm remembering all wrong but it seems to me that as the union of pro players fractured the current state of Professional Pool (in the United States) started there. I'd love to see a new pro tour but I'd hate to see history repeat like that.
I think it's be great if everyone could get on the same page, but I don't really see it happening.
Click to expand...

I remember the Camel Pro Tour years ago and it stopped about the time that LA outlawed smoking in Pool halls....no market.
 
golubushka said:
Nice post...(yea, I keep thinking I'm going to take a break from posting here, but OK I keep coming back for one more or whatever)....

Well in another thread I was talkin' about the Black Swan Theory...(see Wikipedia)...and basically what I was trying to say, was that while most may see negativity and even complete collapse...others see opportunity...(and to steal Fatboy's word in that thread)...these visionaries go against the "accepted" wisdom because they see things differently....

To be specific, in what other sport could you actually buy the services of enough of the top Pros to make a complete league season (like Bonus Ball has) for *just* a million dollars....(the price of a starter house in Silicon Valley, I expect)???

There is opportunity without bound right now for the right visionaries...and as per the quoted stuff above , which I agree with, I am hoping that Bonus Ball turns out to be the Black Swan and is successful...but if not, some other visionary (or set of them) will be...because that's the way that capitalism works....

In the other Bogus Ball thread...(which turned out to be a good one I think)...people were taking about the platform and the players...so whatever the platform will be (hopefully Bonus Ball) it still leaves the players to get more organized...but maybe someone else will have something more interesting to say about that...(we rarely hear from the Pro players here because of the negative nature of these forums...although...I sense that even that may be changing for the better lately, hopefully anyway)....
Click to expand...

As I said in my thread I know how negative it sounded. Negativity isn't always a bad thing IMO, negativity is something that most business people have to do I think. For example I think it would be a great plan to have a Pro tour event each month with $50k added. Great idea and I would love to do it. I am positive but unless I look at the negative side (where the hell does the money come from and can it make a profit to sustain itself?) I would blindly move forward an spend $$$ on marketing, travel, venues, etc only to figure out later that their was a negative side to it an I wasted my time and money. In this case I am not talking about bonus ball but only saying what you may see as negativity may just be simple reality that HAS to be taken into consideration.

Just as a side note Bonus Ball didn't buy the players since the players didn't get paid. They promised to buy the players and didn't. Maybe they should have looked at the negative before they asked the players to go out to Vegas. The point of this thread was not to turn it into a Bonus Ball Bashing session. Bonus Ball could be part of the overall sad outlook I have for the industry as a whole. Its not an individual issue here its the collective of events that are not looking good.
 
Wow, all negative. Nothing is going well? You're kidding, right?

I'll take note that in 2013 three major events were added to the American pool calendar. That would be the Bigfoot 10-ball Challenge, a WPA sanctioned Ultimate 10-ball Championship and the US Open 8-ball Championship. In 2012, we saw the addition of the Southern Classic One Pocket, the Southern Classic 9-ball and the Southern Classic Banks.

That's six new pro events we have today that we didn't have two years ago.

While much of the original post is well reasoned, let's show a little appreciation for promoters who added numerous paydays to the American pool calendar. Pool faces major challenges right now, but there are some who remain innovative and productive.
 
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Celophanewrap...You really should get your facts straight before making incorrect statements like these. The PBTA was the pro organization connected with the Camel events. The PBTA was a dictatorship run with a heavy hand by Don Mackey. It was partly through Mackey's actions that RJ Reynolds packed it in on pro pool (he went on to sue them, won the lawsuit, and stole the money owed to the players). The PCA was formed by CJ, Allen Hopkins and several other pros who were disenchanted with the way Mackey ran things. Camel/RJ Reynolds couldn't have cared less about the PCA. Camel quit sponsoring pool because they felt they weren't getting the ROI they had expected. It had nothing to do with the PCA. BTW, the pro players have been shooting themselves in the foot for decades before either the PBT or the PCA. Now they're shooting themselves in the foot again with the ABP. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Celophanewrap said:
Some years ago wasn't there the Camel Pro Tour (or the Lucky Strike Pro Tour or the Bud, or some other corporate sponsor Pro Tour) and many of the pro player played on that all year long but then some things happened and another rival organization formed, I think it was called Professional Cue Sports inc or ltd, I think it was CJ's. and they began to develop an event schedule but Camel didn't want their players playing in the PCS events and nothing worked out and everything folded.
I dunno, maybe I'm remembering all wrong but it seems to me that as the union of pro players fractured the current state of Professional Pool (in the United States) started there. I'd love to see a new pro tour but I'd hate to see history repeat like that.
I think it's be great if everyone could get on the same page, but I don't really see it happening.
Click to expand...
 
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keyword is Pro

Everytime one of these threads gets started about the state of Pro Pool, some people always get it confused with the state of Pool itself; which is a whole other ballgame.....I don't know that Pro Pool will ever get better (as in making a living), but I don't believe Pool itself will ever become "extinct".
 
wahcheck said:
Everytime one of these threads gets started about the state of Pro Pool, some people always get it confused with the state of Pool itself; which is a whole other ballgame.....I don't know that Pro Pool will ever get better (as in making a living), but I don't believe Pool itself will ever become "extinct".
Click to expand...

I concur, my points are ONLY regarding PRO POOL. The leagues I hear are taking a little hit these days but everywhere I go all over the country they are playing in the masses. League pool and casual pool will never die.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; how about directing your energy toward keeping our local poolrooms from closing their doors, and let the pros take care of themselves. Whatever situation they (the pros) have gotten themselves into is most certainly of their own doing and none of my, or our, concern.
What does concern me, however, is showing up at my friendly neighborhood pool hall and seeing a sign on the door that says, "Out of business."
 
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bfdlad said:
As most of you know I am involved with Pro pool and Pro Pool Players. Over the past year at least I have been looking at the state of Pro Pool, trying to figure out exactly where it is and where I can place myself in order to maximize my exposure and maximize what I can to help further the game/sport and have the biggest effect on pool and billiards fans throughout the USA at least. The World may be a a tall order right now but maybe one day :)

What I have found is that the pro pool world is in utter confusion and in shambles. Nothing is really going well. I can go through a few of these an I am sure there id more to add to the list.

US OPEN - 9-Ball = One of the longest running and prestigious events in the world, some may disagree but I think US OPEN 9-Ball title is the same as winning a World title. This event has been struggling for a few years, many are today still uncertain will even happen this year. Non payment or slow payment have been a constant.

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS OVERSEAS = 2 events I believe were scheduled and then cancelled.

BONUS BALL= Obviously I can't leave this one out. So much uncertainty here. From what we can gather they are working on something wit BIG money behind it that will save it. Never the less it has been haunted by previous delays, contractor problems and non payment of players. Depending who you ask its will either be back stronger than ever or its done.

INFIGHTING = Constant battles, grudges and what some may call sabotage between top promoters in the industry.

SBE Pro Event = Another event that has been around for a while, went from $25k added to$7,500 added.

TUNICA SOUTHERN CLASSIC = From what I hear the turnout was low and had a possible effect on a multi casino deal and who knows if the think it will be worth it again.

So with just these events and productions what does it leave for the Pro Players to do for a living?? I know there are other events out there for the pros Like Turning Stone and the CSI Open events in Vegas. There is talk about those events possibly going away all together or being changes to invitational events. Who Knows. Will Badi do another Ultimate10-Ball?? again who knows. We know he missed a year before.

So really, what is left for the Pro players to attend in the next 12 months if all of this comes to pass?? On top of that how many players have the skill level to actually cash enough and consistanly enough to be able to eek out a living??

Based just on these points I have pointed out it tells me that the Pro pool world is in total free fall mode and needs HELP in a big way. I have said it before it needs STRUCTURE! it needs a leader to unify and help everyone work together but I just do not see that happening because too many of the current players will not work together. Maybe that's what the pro pool world needs, total collapse and implode. That will thin the heard not only for players but promoters too. This way there would be less people to fight with. I know I sound negative but I am looking at reality.

For me?? I am going to continue to do what I do. I am also going to work on new and exciting things to bring the pool and billiard enthusiasts. Although I am about the smallest fish in the billiard promoting pond I hop to reach out to the bigger fish in the pond for help, advice and a possible way to make a difference.

Again, I am sure there are plenty out there that disagree with this post but this is all my personal opinion from what I see.
Click to expand...


Pro pool will probably look a little (or a lot) different next year.

Not everyone is going to like the changes.

Lou Figueroa
 
Well, bfdlad. My good sir. I offer further sanguinity by saying Pro Pool has no fear of becoming extinct. There are millions of people playing pro pool or will soon be pro players in the Asian countries.

I don't want to sound xenophobic (not saying you are) by ignoring the fact that PRO pool is a world-wide industry and considering that, Pro Pool is doing just fine. America simply has to either beat 'em or join 'em.
Perhaps if Asia gave America the 8 ball..............
 
Like Rufus sort of suggested, pro pool needs to go all the way down before it can start anew, by the players. They need to form an association & take the future of 'professional pool' into their own hands.

They need to model it after the PGA as the old golf pros did. A connection with a charity would be good, perhaps AA or a drug & gambling rehabilitation entity.

Once they are united, they can dictate some terms to any & all that want to hold a professional tournament. 'These are the rules under which the Professional Cue Sports Association plays.' If not, we, the PCSA will not sanction it & our members will not participate in it.

Professional Pocket Billiards needs to be reborn. It will take a strong individual or group of individuals to deliver a new born legitimate baby.

Anyway, the above are just my opinions & my hopes.

Then again, I still believe in the spirit of Santa Claus or St. Nicholaus.

Regards & Best Wishes to ALL & to ALL a Good Night.
 
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boogeyman said:
Well, bfdlad. My good sir. I offer further sanguinity by saying Pro Pool has no fear of becoming extinct. There are millions of people playing pro pool or will soon be pro players in the Asian countries.

I don't want to sound xenophobic (not saying you are) by ignoring the fact that PRO pool is a world-wide industry and considering that, Pro Pool is doing just fine. America simply has to either beat 'em or join 'em.
Perhaps if Asia gave America the 8 ball..............
Click to expand...


we mite need need the 7 ball, just sayin'
 
Interesting post - but not unexpected.

Many of us in the pool world have been saying this is the year of big change in pool.
Probably the catalyst for the 'awakening' was the Bonus Ball debacle.

I know this is not supposed to be BB Bashing thread. But it is a study in what is wrong with the pro pool scene; and should not be ignored.

I have been saying for quite some time that people are just not being realistic or aware of the negative impact of what this BB could do for pool. And it was not the game that caused the problem.

It was the attitude of the BB management supporters that insisted that anyone who questioned the propaganda was 'against the pool players'. Nothing could be farther from the truth - but I know there was a lot of damage done to the infrastructure of professional pool in this country.

Time will tell how it shakes out. But somewhere along the line, people have to be responsible for what they say and do. So far no one from BB has been willing to admit any wrong doing. So I guess all the lies and deceit were in my imagination.

All of this friction was totally unnecessary. And too many got sucked in to the crap. And in this small of an industry - all things are connected and inter-dependent.

Oh well - some of us are willing to rebuild. But history does have a tendency to repeat itself, doesn't it?

Mark Griffin
 
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