Bonus Ball starts May 30th

[PETROBOY]

+ a billion.

When Shane and Alex were playing a TAR match at the Riv years ago two out of the three days the seats were 50-70% empty. Only the final day when Alex made the comeback did it fill up. That was with 7000 people who paid to come to Vegas with the main focus being to play pool LITERALLY across the hall. If they wont walk twenty feet they aint getting in a cab.

People ask why our studio is so small. I tell them all the same thing:"The money is online. Why would we spend money on a big space that we cant fill ?"

But then what the hell do I know ? We keep hearing about all this gee whiz stuff no one else understands or knows about so I stand by to be amazed.

Clearly if you had a game with odd colored balls, rules that are not straight forward and many missed deadlines, people would rush to fill your doors. also you could pay out tens of thousands of dollars a week for prize money. Im wondering how much is the PPV and is it every week? I can't imagine people buying it every week. Where is all the money going to come from?

 

[watchez]

I agree with this pretty much 100%.

But the thing is....when you enter an industry with the attitude of "screw everybody else" then you better be ready for everybody else to say "screw you". So far that has not happened yet simply because Bonus Ball has not managed to actually do much of anything yet. But if they do and it starts hurting people then those people will most certainly do what they can to push back.

I don't think there is a chance in hell this thing lasts six months without either going bust or players defecting en masse for one reason or another so I don't think there will be any real impact in the long term. I do know that more than a few people who have a lot of stroke in the industry are paying very close attention and so far they are not very happy at all with the attitude displayed thus far from Team BB. You may say "So what." but like I said its easy to be the bully when no one is fighting back. Different story if a bunch of other big guys decided that you are the asshole and something needs to be done about it.

It wouldnt be very hard at all to get four or five guys in a room with the end result being a statement to the players of "If you miss our events for Bonus Ball you better like playing Bonus Ball because you will never play in our events again." All of a sudden the players have a little skin in the game. Its an interesting situation and I will watch as it unfolds. If nothing else I am positive there will be at least one EPIC bonus ball thread before its over.

This is what will happen -

The players will get together and say they need to stick together and play in each week of Bonus Ball. Then one or more players will think, the US Open is a hell of a title I wish I had plus it has all that added money and beyond that, the field is much weaker because everyone is in Vega$ playing BB so I'll take the week off and try to snap it off. Get what happens next on tape and I'll pay for that PPV.

Or some player will announce first that he wants the week off to play, using the sub that is available and some other player will want the same week off. Then what? Are there multiple subs or just one per team? So Player A leaves, goes to the US Open and wins $25K and Player B gets to stay back in Vega$ and take home $1,000.

And to all the people trying to make analogies in other sports where leagues don't make any consolations for players wanting to play in two events as once, those have all been terrible analogies. Compare it to NASCAR. There have been drivers that have entered multiple events over one weekend. And guess what - they don't put other racing events up that a driver of that caliber could compete in against the NASCAR race. I don't know much about it but the NASCAR race is on Sunday but the truck race or other races are on Saturday.

 

[JCIN]

This is more impossible to occur than the rest of your statement. Its been shown in the history of pool that players can't organize themselves into any cohesive union/group, and promoters can't organize themselves either (presumably because they were former players).

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your post, but the part I quoted would never in a million years happen.

Sure. Could never happen. No one has probably even considered the possibility. What was I thinking ?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Sure. Could never happen. No one has probably even considered the possibility. What was I thinking ?

To each his own, but it has never happened before. After IPT fallout, nothing. After tour fallouts in the 90's, nothing. After US Open debacles, nothing. There was an effort to unite the regional tours, think it was called NUTS or something like that, nothing.

Only chance is with the ladies who did have something organized, cause they are not boys.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I read some but not all the thread, so sorry if I'm repeating anything...

A few of my cents below:

1. I'm not sure how I feel about the league, I'll give it a chance, but I'm not emotionally invested in it either way, like I was in the IPT. I'm also really curious to see the production of it given the big budget. I will tune in if for no other reason than that. I bought the Shane aiming download explicitly for that reason (and was not disappointed). I like seeing how the technology of broadcasting pool is evolving.

2. Nathon, I think you should stop posting on behalf of the league. Just let the league speak for itself by delivering the matches. You are way nicer than the crazy guy that was banned, but people are just looking to engage with whomever is available, and now that person is you.

3. The schedules have been brought up over and over again. Everyone in this thread is asking questions they already know the answers to, its just to engage. The press releases from day one had provisions for players to skip events.

4. This isn't a one week event. Its half the year. How does anyone possibly expect there won't be conflicts if something take half a year to complete????

5. These guys aren't Charlie Williams pulling his power struggle BS scheduling SINGLE week events on top of other SINGLE week events. These guys are trying hard to allow players their flexibility. (whether that is wise or not remains to be seen, but they sure aren't trying a malicious power trip like CW did)

Those are my 3 cents

 

[Cory in DC]

This is what will happen -

The players will get together and say they need to stick together and play in each week of Bonus Ball. Then one or more players will think, the US Open is a hell of a title I wish I had plus it has all that added money and beyond that, the field is much weaker because everyone is in Vega$ playing BB so I'll take the week off and try to snap it off. Get what happens next on tape and I'll pay for that PPV.

Or some player will announce first that he wants the week off to play, using the sub that is available and some other player will want the same week off. Then what? Are there multiple subs or just one per team? So Player A leaves, goes to the US Open and wins $25K and Player B gets to stay back in Vega$ and take home $1,000.

And to all the people trying to make analogies in other sports where leagues don't make any consolations for players wanting to play in two events as once, those have all been terrible analogies. Compare it to NASCAR. There have been drivers that have entered multiple events over one weekend. And guess what - they don't put other racing events up that a driver of that caliber could compete in against the NASCAR race. I don't know much about it but the NASCAR race is on Sunday but the truck race or other races are on Saturday.

Shane is not in BB, so the player who does this will not have an easy road to win the US Open. And even if the player who skips out on BB at the last minute wins, he may not have an easy road to getting paid. On the other hand, assuming BB is actually up and running, if the player leaves BB in violation of the agreement, they risk getting kicked out or suspended, which would cost more than one week of foregone income.

As for a group of incumbent competitors organizing together to arrange a boycott of a new competitor, in the real world, the potatoes in pool are likely too small for any legal consequences to ensue. That said, a group boycott of that sort is a violation of the Sherman Act Section 1, and subject to both criminal and civil liability (this does not constitute legal advice, just general information). Here's a nice overview and here's an even shorter version.

Cory

 

[JCIN]

To each his own, but it has never happened before. After IPT fallout, nothing. After tour fallouts in the 90's, nothing. After US Open debacles, nothing. There was an effort to unite the regional tours, think it was called NUTS or something like that, nothing.

Only chance is with the ladies who did have something organized, cause they are not boys.

The landscape today is not the same.

Hypothetically it would take two guys to essentially cut out six events. Four guys could cut out nine.

Do I think it will happen right away? Nope.

Is it possible if they get pissed off enough? Yup.

 

[JCIN]

Shane is not in BB, so the player who does this will not have an easy road to win the US Open. And even if the player who skips out on BB at the last minute wins, he may not have an easy road to getting paid. On the other hand, assuming BB is actually up and running, if the player leaves BB in violation of the agreement, they risk getting kicked out or suspended, which would cost more than one week of foregone income.

As for a group of incumbent competitors organizing together to arrange a boycott of a new competitor, in the real world, the potatoes in pool are likely too small for any legal consequences to ensue. That said, a group boycott of that sort is a violation of the Sherman Act Section 1, and subject to both criminal and civil liability (this does not constitute legal advice, just general information). Here's a nice overview and here's an even shorter version.

Cory

So if current promoters formed a "league" and then said "Players who play in our league that play in competing events during league events will face censure." would be illegal ? If this is the case every major sports league and the WPBA would be violating the law.

It would take one meeting to happen. As I stated above I don't think it will happen right away but it is certainly possible. I hope it never does as it would be bad for everyone but it is a contingency that must be considered. Another contingency is some people just decide to take their ball and go home. A lot of people who have put a lot of money into pro pool are getting tired of players jumping ship at any new guy waving promises of fame and fortune around. At some point there is a line. Will we see it here ? Who knows. Thats what makes it interesting.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Are the bonus ball payments put in escrow? I was just wondering that considering all of the ABP players were playing in the bonus ball season.


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[watchez]

Shane is not in BB, so the player who does this will not have an easy road to win the US Open. And even if the player who skips out on BB at the last minute wins, he may not have an easy road to getting paid. On the other hand, assuming BB is actually up and running, if the player leaves BB in violation of the agreement, they risk getting kicked out or suspended, which would cost more than one week of foregone income.

As for a group of incumbent competitors organizing together to arrange a boycott of a new competitor, in the real world, the potatoes in pool are likely too small for any legal consequences to ensue. That said, a group boycott of that sort is a violation of the Sherman Act Section 1, and subject to both criminal and civil liability (this does not constitute legal advice, just general information). Here's a nice overview and here's an even shorter version.

Cory

I'll just bet that Shane doesn't win the US Open next year, since you seem to think that he is the only player that matters.

And it is easier, not easy road to win a tournament

Look at the list of Bonus Ball players and see what a depleted field the US Open, the events in July in Vega$ will be. The events in Vega$ are an even better example -- let this thought go thru the mind of a pool player that has most likely never had to answer to anyone in their entire life -- so you mean there are these huge events going on 3 miles from here and I can't go play in them because I have to hit a orange and purple ball into a pocket on a livestream that no one is watching? Wait til that thought goes thru the head of Darren Appleton, Scott Frost, Johnny Archer, etc. Wait til Earl and Larry Nevel who both have strong personalities and are on the same team want to have a sub play for them on the same week. Wait til the alternate doesn't want to play so he can be the one playing in the $25K added event. Wait til Mark Griffin tells the pro player that there was an entry deadline and just because his last paycheck from Bonus Ball hasn't cashed and now wants to play in his event, he can't make an exception for him.

 

[JCIN]

I'll just bet that Shane doesn't win the US Open next year, since you seem to think that he is the only player that matters.

And it is easier, not easy road to win a tournament

Look at the list of Bonus Ball players and see what a depleted field the US Open, the events in July in Vega$ will be. The events in Vega$ are an even better example -- let this thought go thru the mind of a pool player that has most likely never had to answer to anyone in their entire life -- so you mean there are these huge events going on 3 miles from here and I can't go play in them because I have to hit a orange and purple ball into a pocket on a livestream that no one is watching? Wait til that thought goes thru the head of Darren Appleton, Scott Frost, Johnny Archer, etc. Wait til Earl and Larry Nevel who both have strong personalities and are on the same team want to have a sub play for them on the same week. Wait til the alternate doesn't want to play so he can be the one playing in the $25K added event.

Managing that many players for six months is a unique dynamic that has me fascinated. I have an opinion of how it will go but I have been wrong before.

 

[KantmakAball]

So if current promoters formed a "league" and then said "Players who play in our league that play in competing events during league events will face censure." would be illegal ? If this is the case every major sports league and the WPBA would be violating the law.

It would take one meeting to happen. As I stated above I don't think it will happen right away but it is certainly possible. I hope it never does as it would be bad for everyone but it is a contingency that must be considered. Another contingency is some people just decide to take their ball and go home. A lot of people who have put a lot of money into pro pool are getting tired of players jumping ship at any new guy waving promises of fame and fortune around. At some point there is a line. Will we see it here ? Who knows. Thats what makes it interesting.

Lol. Welcome to pro pool. How long you been around? 10 years?
Nothing's going to change, players are always going to jump to the next money thrown at them. You nor anyone else involved in today's pool world can stop that

 

[JCIN]

Lol. Welcome to pro pool. How long you been around? 10 years?
Nothing's going to change, players are always going to jump to the next money thrown at them. You nor anyone else involved in today's pool world can stop that

Thanks Mr. Obvious.

I'm not talking about the players changing anything. I wager I have done more business deals with players in my time than you have in however many years you have been hanging around pool rooms telling the same stories and lies. I know exactly what to expect from players.

My point is that the people who PAY the players could very well change the way they go about that fact if they feel pushed to it.

 

[Johnnyt]

Are the bonus ball payments put in escrow? I was just wondering that considering all of the ABP players were playing in the bonus ball season.


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Very good point. If not maybe the Bonus Ball man is a better salesman than Barry. Johnnyt

 

[JD_Hogg]

A few hundred AZr's watching each week on PPV aint gonna keep this afloat and I hope that their not counting on that.

If the product is good and fun to watch they may be able to sell it to the TV market and thats really their only chance for survival if I had to guess.

Bonus Ball won't live or die based on the folks here on the forum, but the threads and post will continue to be fun to read regardless of how it works out.

Soon someones gonna get to pat themselves on the back and say I told you so and when that happens it will prob be thread canidate of the year worthy.

 

[Mr. Bond]

My point is that the people who PAY the players could very well change the way they go about that fact if they feel pushed to it.

That's a fact jack.
Contracts can be a beyotch.
Everything from penalties for showing up late or missed games, to dress codes, to 'good behavior' clauses...publicity rights, salary caps, player trading, contract terms and renewals....and on and on

 

[Cory in DC]

So if current promoters formed a "league" and then said "Players who play in our league that play in competing events during league events will face censure." would be illegal ? If this is the case every major sports league and the WPBA would be violating the law.

It would take one meeting to happen. As I stated above I don't think it will happen right away but it is certainly possible. I hope it never does as it would be bad for everyone but it is a contingency that must be considered. Another contingency is some people just decide to take their ball and go home. A lot of people who have put a lot of money into pro pool are getting tired of players jumping ship at any new guy waving promises of fame and fortune around. At some point there is a line. Will we see it here ? Who knows. Thats what makes it interesting.

If the "league" is a sham formed with the primary intent of collectively disadvantaging an entrant, then yes it could well be illegal.* How would DOJ, a state AG, or a private litigant learn about intent? Through subpoenas and depositions, normally, which gets very expensive very quick, even for parties that prevail.

On the other hand, if the "league" were a bonafide new product and the exclusivity provisions very important to the existence and success of the new product, then it may pass antitrust scrutiny. That was the principle under which ASCAP was formed: without ASCAP, royalties for playing songs would have to be negotiated on a one-by-one basis between performers and businesses that want to play music. Given that it would be costly in the extreme to do that, it made more sense to allow the labels to jointly set uniform music licensing prices and policies. In contrast, if the venture were formed to collectively lessen or eliminate a competitive threat (e.g., book publishers conspiring against Amazon's pricing pressure), then the conclusion could be very different.

Your sports analogy is very much on point. Many major antitrust cases involve the limits of what collections of teams (i.e., leagues) can and cannot do jointly vis-a-vis players and other firms. E.g., NCAA vs. Board of Regents and most recently, American Needle, which basically recognized that NFL teams can work together when doing so is necessary to the functioning of the league, but that in other areas, such as licensing to apparel makers, NFL teams are "potentially competing suppliers of valuable trademarks . . . Decisions by NFL teams to license their separately owned trademarks collectively and to only one vendor are decisions that 'depriv[e] the marketplace of independent centers of decision making,' and therefore of actual or potential competition . . . " Hence, the Supreme Court ruled that, in the context of apparel licensing, the joint actions of the NFL teams were subject to the antitrust laws.

Again, I don't think antitrust litigation in pool is at all likely, so file this under the more you know.

Cory

* I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice. But I do know and work with antitrust issues every day.

 

[Cory in DC]

I'll just bet that Shane doesn't win the US Open next year, since you seem to think that he is the only player that matters.

And it is easier, not easy road to win a tournament

Look at the list of Bonus Ball players and see what a depleted field the US Open, the events in July in Vega$ will be. The events in Vega$ are an even better example -- let this thought go thru the mind of a pool player that has most likely never had to answer to anyone in their entire life -- so you mean there are these huge events going on 3 miles from here and I can't go play in them because I have to hit a orange and purple ball into a pocket on a livestream that no one is watching? Wait til that thought goes thru the head of Darren Appleton, Scott Frost, Johnny Archer, etc. Wait til Earl and Larry Nevel who both have strong personalities and are on the same team want to have a sub play for them on the same week. Wait til the alternate doesn't want to play so he can be the one playing in the $25K added event. Wait til Mark Griffin tells the pro player that there was an entry deadline and just because his last paycheck from Bonus Ball hasn't cashed and now wants to play in his event, he can't make an exception for him.

My point was simply that the US Open won't be an easy payday for any BB player who skips that week of play, so they might think twice before giving up a bird in hand, assuming that there is actually a bird in hand by the time of the US Open. All that said, if the field is sufficiently depleted in September due to the dual BBs (Barry B. and Bonus B.), Shane vs. the field might be a pretty good bet.

As for the rest, you're right: starting a new business is hard and the more moving parts there are, the harder it is. If those moving parts are actual people, then it's even harder still. If it's going to succeed, or even have a chance to succeed, BB will have to make good decisions when those challenges arise. It's not my call, but I'd tell them what my father told me when I threatened to leave home at 16: fine, but don't come back. It worked pretty well.

Cory

 

[Hawk]

It wouldnt be very hard at all to get four or five guys in a room with the end result being a statement to the players of "If you miss our events for Bonus Ball you better like playing Bonus Ball because you will never play in our events again." All of a sudden the players have a little skin in the game. Its an interesting situation and I will watch as it unfolds. If nothing else I am positive there will be at least one EPIC bonus ball thread before its over.

(Anti-trust legalities aside) Wouldn't this just open the door for other promoters to just say to the top players, "Those guys don't want you in their event come play in ours". Telling a top player that you're not playing next year because you missed this year is pretty much cutting off your nose to spite your face. Most businesses don't do that. My guess is that if BB fails life in the pool world will be business as usual.

 

[corvette1340]

What is "Bonus Ball"? First I've heard of it.