Can someone explain why my eyes deceive me like this? (draw shot)

pmata814

pmata814

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was practicing my draw shot today and after struggling for a while I decided to switch the cue ball with a stripe ball to see how much spin I was actually getting. I remembered from Byrne's video that the width of the stripe is the boundary of where your tip must strike the ball to avoid a miss-cue. So I centered the strip horizontally and aimed for the lowest part of the stripe. I struck the ball and got some spin with a small amount of draw. I checked the mark on the ball and was surprised to find my tip hit just slightly below center! I repeated it MANY times with the same exact result. So I decided to purposely aim below the stripe. I mean almost low enough to hit the cloth! Wow... awesome draw! I checked the mark and it was just slightly above the lowest part of the stripe. I repeated it over and over again with the same exact result. Within 10 minutes I was drawing the full length of the table!

I'm incredibly happy that I discovered how to hit the draw shot but can someone explain what's going on? Why do my eyes perceive things like this?

P.S.
I tried the same thing on the follow shot and this didn't happen. I aimed at the top part of the stripe and I hit the top part of the stripe. Weird...
 
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I had similar experiences when I was learning..... I can't tell you why I can only suggest it has something to do with the connection that your mind made with your body.
 
Do you drop your elbow? This can cause the tip to raise a little bit before striking the cue ball. It's hard to tell, because the elbow drop comes on the final stroke, so you won't notice it when you take your practice strokes.
 
Sounds like a lesson is in order. At least that's what I would do. I'd be looking up Sailor or Mark Wilson or Scott Lee or somebody that could watch and fix my stroke.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Do you drop your elbow? This can cause the tip to raise a little bit before striking the cue ball. It's hard to tell, because the elbow drop comes on the final stroke, so you won't notice it when you take your practice strokes.
Click to expand...

Hes right...either that or your grip hand is too far back for a pump handle stroke!
 
My Best Guess...

I would guess that one or both of the following are happening:

1) Your tip is too far from the cue ball at your set position. Should be only about a tip away not 4- 6 inches like I see some players. Hard to hit your target accurately if you set too far away from the cue ball.

2) Remember that when using draw it is the top of the tip contacting the bottom radius of the cue ball (not the bottom of the tip). Notice how your tip is curved to fit the curvature of the ball.

The opposite is true with applying top. The bottom of the tip contacts the top radius of the ball. Make sense?
 
I haven't seen you shoot but it sounds like you might be dropping your elbow "before" you make contact with the cue ball. That could cause your tip to rise from where you are aiming it.

Video is a great tool to diagnose this and view it frame by frame while using an open bridge to see what's going on in your stroke.

Shoot the video so that you can see your grip hand, elbow and your cue ball in the same shot

Hope this helps.

pmata814 said:
I was practicing my draw shot today and after struggling for a while I decided to switch the cue ball with a stripe ball to see how much spin I was actually getting. I remembered from Byrne's video that the width of the stripe is the boundary of where your tip must strike the ball to avoid a miss-cue. So I centered the strip horizontally and aimed for the lowest part of the stripe. I struck the ball and got some spin with a small amount of draw. I checked the mark on the ball and was surprised to find my tip hit just slightly below center! I repeated it MANY times with the same exact result. So I decided to purposely aim below the stripe. I mean almost low enough to hit the cloth! Wow... awesome draw! I checked the mark and it was just slightly above the lowest part of the stripe. I repeated it over and over again with the same exact result. Within 10 minutes I was drawing the full length of the table!

I'm incredibly happy that I discovered how to hit the draw shot but can someone explain what's going on? Why do my eyes perceive things like this?

P.S.
I tried the same thing on the follow shot and this didn't happen. I aimed at the top part of the stripe and I hit the top part of the stripe. Weird...
Click to expand...
 
When I am drawing the cb or applying spin I line up my shot and decide what im going to do and do it,I dont place my tip where I want to hit the cb ,if i am looking to draw hard I dont think about it I just expect it to happen if that makes sense,and it usually does.I can tell you that you have to use your imagination to pull off the big strokes or at least I do
 
This stripe-and-chalkmark method is how I teach beginners to draw (because it's awesome) and before they even hit a single ball I will tell them to expect this. This is not just you. Everyone seems to instinctively goes up a little at the end of the draw stroke, at least when they start learning. And maybe even after.

The difference may be that when you're doing a practice stroke, no muscles are bunching up and you're not putting force into it. When you actually swing with force, something happens to make that tip rise. This is even more noticeable on the break. I don't know enough about the process or musculature to say what it is... elbow drop? Legs straightening? Back/shoulder? But it happens.

There may also be a psychological thing happening. We instinctively don't want to drive the stick into the cloth. And some part of you may be scared of scooping/miscuing.
 
CreeDo said:
... And some part of you may be scared of scooping/miscuing.
Click to expand...
I believe this is all of the problem.

When it comes to chalking, beginners are as dumb as rocks. I don't mean to offend any beginners reading this, but it is nearly always the truth. I have even seen beginners at the pool hall trade in one cue stick that was miscuing too much for another from the wall -- the pieces of chalk remained unused in the ball tray.

A result of this is that when they first try to hit the ball as low as they see other players hit the ball, the cue ball flies into the air and their buddies all laugh at them. That trains their elbow to drop to avoid the peer abuse. That subconscious training is hard to reverse.

Any time you are about to spin the cue ball, look at your tip. It has to have a thin, uniform, complete layer of chalk on the part that might hit the cue ball.
 
Pool is a game of optical illusions

pmata814 said:
i was practicing my draw shot today and after struggling for a while i decided to switch the cue ball with a stripe ball to see how much spin i was actually getting. I remembered from byrne's video that the width of the stripe is the boundary of where your tip must strike the ball to avoid a miss-cue. So i centered the strip horizontally and aimed for the lowest part of the stripe. I struck the ball and got some spin with a small amount of draw. I checked the mark on the ball and was surprised to find my tip hit just slightly below center! I repeated it many times with the same exact result. So i decided to purposely aim below the stripe. I mean almost low enough to hit the cloth! Wow... Awesome draw! I checked the mark and it was just slightly above the lowest part of the stripe. I repeated it over and over again with the same exact result. Within 10 minutes i was drawing the full length of the table!

I'm incredibly happy that i discovered how to hit the draw shot but can someone explain what's going on? Why do my eyes perceive things like this?

P.s.
I tried the same thing on the follow shot and this didn't happen. I aimed at the top part of the stripe and i hit the top part of the stripe. Weird...
Click to expand...

the person that invented pool and decided on the size of the balls couldn't have picked a more difficult size for our eyes.

If you put a hand 6" in front of your face so it blocks out one eye and look at an object 10' away it will appear you can see right through your hand while having both eyes open. If you didn't know you had the one eye blocked out it would be hard to tell which eye was blocked out.

You can do this with either eye.

The same with shooting shots. You can't tell when shooting shots which eye is doing what even though when you cut each way that there is one eye that determines how much of the ball we hit on every shot.

Knowing which eye does what greatly increases your understanding of why you miss certain shot and why they just don't look quite right when we get down to aim.

Then knowing how to place them in the proper position without letting any optical illusions hamper your aim can greatly enhance you ability to shoot more accurately.

You have stumbled onto one of many optical illusions this game has to offer. My hats off to you for learning this for yourself. It's fun when we learn how to correct something that has kept us from getting things to work the way we want it to.

When you get down on a shot and it doesn't quite look right move your head right to left just a little and you will find out that your eyes were not in the best position to see the shot naturally. We need to make some adjustments to get our eye in that most correct position.

Like i said the person that decided the size of these balls couldn't have picked a more deceptive size than what they are. Is the balls were the size of softballs we would all shoot like champions. But because they are the size that they are you need to know the right eye position to be able to find the natural sight for each eye on every shot.

This is why the shot looks like it will go and you shoot it and miss the ball by a country mile.

Knowing where the eyes need to be is huge.

Move around and play with it. Good luck geno............
 
CreeDo said:
There may also be a psychological thing happening. We instinctively don't want to drive the stick into the cloth. And some part of you may be scared of scooping/miscuing.
Click to expand...
I still do this fairly often. Ill need maximum draw, and right before I hit the ball, Ill bail out for fear of the evil scoop miscue. Its just a lack of confidence on my part and Im workin on it :thumbup:

Joe
 
Thanks for all the responses.

I video-taped myself and I'm definitely dropping my elbow. The thing is I can't tell if it's before or after contact with the cueball. Phil Capelle says in "PYBP" that the elbow should drop at or after contact with the cueball. RandyG and Scott Lee; however, disagree in their video. I've been trying to practice my stroke the way they suggest but I've only been at it for 3 days.
 
dr9ball said:
I haven't seen you shoot but it sounds like you might be dropping your elbow "before" you make contact with the cue ball. That could cause your tip to rise from where you are aiming it.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing...
 
I can draw the hell out of the ball.I start with a level stroke and on my final stroke i raise my elbow slightly and that drops the cue tip at a sharper angle under the cue ball. It might not be text book but i can draw the ball back with less effort then most people. Less cue speed equals a straighter stroke. I also complete the follow thru and not jab at it like the bangers do.
 
Measureman is the winner in the draw debate. he is the only one who mentions the fact that he uses a nice "follow through" on the draw shot. one really only needs to hit the cb about one tip below the equator witha nice follow through. This is all part and particle of a good stroke.:wink:
 
Followthrough and what Bob said... chalk chalk chalk. Think of draw as a trick shot. Don't be scared of the chalk. That's why I like the chalkmark method of draw practice... instant feedback about where you hit, and you're forced to chalk thoroughly every shot.
 
pmata814 said:
Thanks for all the responses.

I video-taped myself and I'm definitely dropping my elbow. The thing is I can't tell if it's before or after contact with the cueball. Phil Capelle says in "PYBP" that the elbow should drop at or after contact with the cueball. RandyG and Scott Lee; however, disagree in their video. I've been trying to practice my stroke the way they suggest but I've only been at it for 3 days.
Click to expand...
Early elbow drop is the main reason why many people don't get as much draw as they expect or hope.

FYI, I have lots of good advice and resources for improving your draw shot here:


Regards,
Dave
 
coolcue said:
one really only needs to hit the cb about one tip below the equator witha nice follow through.
Click to expand...

Type of cloth, distance between OB and CB, and speed of stroke needed for the shot dictate where the cue ball needs to be struck. Making a general statement about where the cue ball needs to be hit for a draw shot can be very misleading.

Ask most beginning and low lever players how to make a stop shot and they will say a little below center, when in actuality there is much more to it than that.

Woody
 
Thanks for all the responses guys...

Get this, I just got finished practicing and I discovered that when I'm trying to hit a force-follow shot the same thing is happening but in reverse! When I first said that I had shot with follow and the chalk was exactly where I was aiming it was true, but I was shooting soft strokes. When I add velocity to my stroke the tip hits underneath the place I'm aiming :confused:

So, when I hit with draw my tip hits above the place I'm aiming, and when I hit force-follow the tip hits beneath. I know...my stroke is all screwed up :o I adjusted by aiming higher. I know that ideally I should correct my stroke instead of compensating like this but it works. I played some six ball racks and was surprised at how much my position play improved immidiately after I discovered this. This is fun :D
 
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