Could someone define "taper roll"?

B

brettincincy

New member
I am new to the forum with some cues to sell ...

To me taper roll means "shaft rolls straight (meaning the ferrule and the joint stay flat on the table), but the amount of light visible under the tapered part of the shaft varies slightly." I'm thinking the variation is a piece of paper or two thick.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
 
First off, welcome to AZ! Secondly, you may have noticed you're in the wanted/for sale section. This is for those members who are looking to buy or sell their billiard related items.
If you have a question of any kind that pertains to the world of Billiards, you should post that question in either the main forum or possibly the "ask the cuemaker" section.
 
Years ago the cue makers would try to make a straight taper from tip to the joint and when rolled it would lie flat. About 20 years ago they started a pro taper which leaves the tip fuller and the shaft thinner in the stroking area and of course would show some light when rolled. In fact I would use a parabolic taper which would leave the tip at 13mm plus and start the taper below the ferrule, which causes a harder hit and though straight would show even more light when rolled.
 
Brett, I agree with your assessment. Tip stays on table but there is some light variance when rolled.


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Billiard Dictionary
ta·per roll
ˈtāpər/ roll/
Verb
- a reduction in thickness towards one end and what actually makes a cue playable
 
brettincincy said:
I am new to the forum with some cues to sell ...

To me taper roll means "shaft rolls straight (meaning the ferrule and the joint stay flat on the table), but the amount of light visible under the tapered part of the shaft varies slightly." I'm thinking the variation is a piece of paper or two thick.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

I think your spot on
 
brettincincy said:
I am new to the forum with some cues to sell ...

To me taper roll means "shaft rolls straight (meaning the ferrule and the joint stay flat on the table), but the amount of light visible under the tapered part of the shaft varies slightly." I'm thinking the variation is a piece of paper or two thick.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

Pretty much. The variance could mean any number of things from slight warp, slightly off-center machining at the joint, or even uneven sanding due to wood being harder on the edge grain than face grain (slight egg shape). If it's minor, it's considered "taper roll". Many folks who do not build cues will always claim that it's a fancy way of saying the shaft is warped, but that's not always the case. Truth is I am actually astonished when I see a shaft that has absolutely no "taper roll" at all because they are virtually non-existent. Shafts right off the lathe often have a tiny bit of wobble, and by the time the shaft is machined for the joint, sanded, finished, resanded, & then polished, it will inevitably have a tiny variance somewhere that can be seen if you are watching the light under it as it rolls on a table. Hope that helps a little.
 
brettincincy said:
I am new to the forum with some cues to sell ...

To me taper roll means "shaft rolls straight (meaning the ferrule and the joint stay flat on the table), but the amount of light visible under the tapered part of the shaft varies slightly." I'm thinking the variation is a piece of paper or two thick.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

If there is much light variation at all as you slowly turn the shaft at eye level (with no downward pressure) , the shaft is warped. This technique shows warpage. Taper roll is just a nice way of saying the shaft is warped. By sighting the light variation, you might also see that your shaft is not perfectly round. Shaft making lathe's vibrate the taper bar and that can make some shafts slightly oval.

In terms of value, a warped shaft is not as serious as a warped handle. You can always get another shaft reasonably made, but a handle is the cue.
 
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brettincincy said:
I am new to the forum with some cues to sell ...

To me taper roll means "shaft rolls straight (meaning the ferrule and the joint stay flat on the table), but the amount of light visible under the tapered part of the shaft varies slightly." I'm thinking the variation is a piece of paper or two thick.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

Taper roll = warp.

The term is used by people looking to sell warped shafts that are looking for a different term to use than warp.

"Taper roll" is almost always followed by the admonition that "it doesn't effect play at all".

As Eric points out, neither Tate or myself build cues.
 
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Hi,

During the tapering process there are situations where a oscillation can occur in the center area of the shaft where the result is that a cue can roll on a table and the tip will not bob but the air space under the center of the shaft can change.

The cause of this are but not limited to the following:

Cutting tool or blade is dull

Too much tail stock pressure while holding the cue between centers

Too fast a speed of the liner travel speed of the carriage

Wrong rotational speed

I have a compound taper on my shafts that is parabolic transitioning into a modern pro or a super pro taper. So my shafts reveal a lot of air space under the shaft when it is rolled on a table. Making a a shaft that shows consistent air space under the shaft is a tricky business and requires a great attention to all details while taper turning.

IMHO, using a table saw shaft tapering machine with vernier control motors is the best way to taper a shaft because the tool push off is best managed with a 80 tooth triple chip flat top ground saw blade.

Denser shaft wood stock produces shaft the are naturally more resistant to variables that produce taper roll. When build a shaft the less sanding the better because sanding can pancake a shaft changing the roundness of the geometry viewed in cross section.

JMO,

Rick
 
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kvinbrwr said:
As Eric points out, neither Tate or myself build cues.
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The reason I added that is because before I personally began building cues, I had no idea how impossible it is to make a perfect shaft, or cue for that matter. A shaft is straightest immediately off the lathe, and almost everything done to it after the fact will take it slightly off center or out of round. Either of those will give the perception of warp when rolled, even if the shaft has no warp. That's why I say I am astonished when I do see a visually perfect shaft. It's rare, very rare. I can't remember the last time I saw one, actually.
 
It is a slight lift in the middle of the shaft, but the shaft rolls very straight, but not perfectly flat. I never seen a shaft roll perfect, but it could all be in the slate of the table. I mention a slight taper roll in most of my sales, to keep the cry babies from saying the shaft isn't flat. Even though they would pinch a nerve looking for something to cry about. Welcome to the forum.
 
kvinbrwr said:
Taper roll = warp.

The term is used by people looking to sell warped shafts that are looking for a different term to use than warp.

"Taper roll" is almost always followed by the admonition that "it doesn't effect play at all".

As Eric points out, neither Tate or myself build cues.
Click to expand...

Warp means warp...Just because someone wants to misuse terms in order to be dishonest does not change the meaning.

As has already been pointed out, perfect shafts are nearly non existent. I think DZ posted one awhile back. Essentially, he spun the shaft on a lathe without the support of a tailstock and it stayed on center without any wobble that I could see. I would not suggest anyone try that who isn't prepared to stop a lathe quickly and keep the shaft from whipping. What's even more amazing about what he did was the fact that the shaft was somehow perfectly balance all the way around as well. Maybe it was some trick or I am not remembering properly.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news regarding that new 275.00 shaft you just bought but......laminated shafts have the same problems. Furthermore, a shaft that rolls out a bit one day might not roll out the next. Don't forget.....it's wood..
 
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brettincincy said:
I am new to the forum with some cues to sell ...

To me taper roll means "shaft rolls straight (meaning the ferrule and the joint stay flat on the table), but the amount of light visible under the tapered part of the shaft varies slightly." I'm thinking the variation is a piece of paper or two thick.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

That's how most people seem to use the definition, in other words very minor warp. This is best discussed in the ask the cuemaker section on the forum and has been discussed there many times.
 
In most cases, I feel it describes the location of a slight roll in the shaft..ie, in the taper/stroke area of the shaft. This results in a variation of light when the shaft is rolled on a table. The cause can be a warp, or it can be a variance in the thickness of the taper/stroke area.

A taper roll does not always mean that a shaft is not straight on center. A shaft can exhibit a variation of light when rolled, and still spin straight on the lathe.

When a player receives a brand new, dead straight shaft, and plays with it, then reaches into his case, grabs a piece of sandpaper and sands away on the shaft, he begins to introduce taper roll to that otherwise dead-straight shaft.

Often, the term "taper roll" has been used to ID a slight warp in the shaft, but that is not always the case.

Joe
 
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