Could this man be the Mosconi Messiah

It all depends on one`s expectations,imagination and perceptions of a Professional pool player. Pool community in general is used to seeing players move and act like Robots. Anything other than Robotic behavior is considered as sacreligious by many in the pool community.

As a general rule, ( with the exception of News,History Channels,cooking classes etc ) things seen on TV should have entertainment value. Robotic movements do not have entertainment value for the general public and it does not mean that the players should act like animals in the jungle.

I read many negative comments on the behavior of the player members of the Mosconi Team.
I did NOT consider the behavior of US Team during the Mosconi cup as inappropriate or embarassing to USA. I thought, on the contrary, the players provided some entertainment. It all depends on one`s expectations & perception.

Professional pool, since it`s inception, has been a individual sport and NEVER been a Team sport. It takes time for transition from Individual to Team concept and it is not realistic to expect miracles to happen overnight.

PS: One should not forget one of the core cultural values of United States Of America and it is: " Rugged Individualism".

and you sat on WHAT SIDE of the stands?
(sorry - that just slipped out, Honey - tell Lee & Jim i said Hey!)
;)

what we saw on-site, was not what everyone else heard - hence the bone of contention. i'm guessing if the players had not been microphoned, then we wouldn't be having this conversation?
 
and you sat on WHAT SIDE of the stands?
(sorry - that just slipped out, Honey - tell Lee & Jim i said Hey!)
;)

what we saw on-site, was not what everyone else heard - hence the bone of contention. i'm guessing if the players had not been microphoned, then we wouldn't be having this conversation?


I sat on the side of your Ancestors. ::grin-square::cool::grin-square:
 
Like what Camel did for pool -- oh wait, the pool players screwed that up.

Or KT -- oh wait, KT and the players screwed that up as well.

Or the guy from Ultimate 10 Ball -- oh wait, the players screwed that up as well.

Or the people that host the snooker matches -- oh wait, many players have screwed that up by dumping games and being barred from the sport.

Or Mark Griffin and his events -- oh wait, the players screwed that up and already the US Open One Pocket is invitiation only to 48 players. Going to be a lot of players left at home, drawing their ball with no one watching.

A world class coach can teach the players class. That would be a HUGE move forward in the impression of pool on the world.

Watchez is the teacher.

Tap, tap, tap! 100% agree with you!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
I see your point, but let me approach the topic a different way, if I may. :)

Keith used to write an article, with my help as everybody likes to cram it down our collective throats, for a pool magazine. The articles usually contained a pool shot with instructions on how to achieve it.

Well, one day, the editor of the magazine contacted Keith and said that a pool instructor, much like Mark Wilson, said there was no way the shot could be made the way Keith described it, and they needed for Keith to review his article again before publishing.

So I asked Keith to please go downstairs and show me the shot he was describing in the article. I wanted to see it with my own eyes, up front and close. Keith proceeded to show me the shot exactly the way it was written.

Then he had a few choice words about the so-called "pool instructor" who hasn't won a tournament or a tin cup with his instructions. In fact, it angered Keith to no end that this "pool instructor" actually had the nerve to say the shot couldn't be done the way Keith described it.

This tension, for lack of a better word, is what I am trying to convey about team members and a coach having no relationship beforehand. That's all. Playing competitive sports is a wee bit different than boot camp, right? :grin-square:

Jam...Name the instructor and show the shot (or provide a link to the article), or it didn't happen! Sometimes pro players describe things the wrong way, but can demonstrate the shot nonetheless. I can cite many examples where this has happened in the past. Many players today can make shots that they cannot explain correctly how they do it...but they can make the shot consistently. Sometimes they are doing the exact opposite of what "think" they're doing. Not saying this is the case here. I admire, envy, and respect KM's skills.

Scott Lee
http://pool knowledge.com
 
It all depends on one`s expectations,imagination and perceptions of a Professional pool player. Pool community in general is used to seeing players move and act like Robots. Anything other than Robotic behavior is considered as sacreligious by many in the pool community.

As a general rule, ( with the exception of News,History Channels,cooking classes etc ) things seen on TV should have entertainment value. Robotic movements do not have entertainment value for the general public and it does not mean that the players should act like animals in the jungle.

I read many negative comments on the behavior of the player members of the Mosconi Team.
I did NOT consider the behavior of US Team during the Mosconi cup as inappropriate or embarassing to USA. I thought, on the contrary, the palyers provided some entertainment. It all depends on one`s expectations & perception.

Professional pool, since it`s inception, has been a individual sport and NEVER been a Team sport. It takes time for transition from Individual to Team concept and it is not realistic to expect miracles to happen overnight.

PS: One should not forget one of the core cultural values of United States Of America and it is: " Rugged Individualism".

Ravi...Most of the time I agree with you. Not this time. The behavior of certain players (we know who they are) was disrespectful at best, and disgraceful at it's worst. They have had 20 years to develop a "team dynamic"...yet continue the 'what's in it for ME' attitude that has prevailed among many American pro players for decades. IMO, it's time for a change. Mark Wilson would help effect that change.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Jam...Name the instructor and show the shot (or provide a link to the article), or it didn't happen! Sometimes pro players describe things the wrong way, but can demonstrate the shot nonetheless. I can cite many examples where this has happened in the past. Many players today can make shots that they cannot explain correctly how they do it...but they can make the shot consistently. Sometimes they are doing the exact opposite of what "think" they're doing. Not saying this is the case here. I admire, envy, and respect KM's skills.

Scott Lee
http://pool knowledge.com

I wrote the shot, as described. I saw that shot, as it was described. The shot was described correctly. And it happened, whether you want to believe it or not. :)

Just as you have a disdain for professional pool players are aren't of the pool purist ilk, so, too, do professional pool players with an established track record of winning tournaments, winning cash, and winning with shots executed EXACTLY as described to instructors who aren't capable of winning anything on pool table.

The instructors who claim their words of wisdom are more mighty than a professional player aren't always right on some topics, though I realize they believe that they are. :wink:

I mean, after all, let's face it. If an instructor was able to execute what they try to teach, then their performance on a field of tournament blue would be flawless, and we'd be seeing them in the winner's circle more times than not. Just food for thought there, Scott. :grin-square:
 
I think you are very right and it seems important that there is team that respects each other.
Captains or coaches come in different models and makes. I am not so sure that a great player could do the best job. Just because players have been there in the past is not good reason they are there now. IN fact I think it is weak reason.
Look at what loylty did to the Dalls Cowboys when they felt such loyalty to TOm Landry and as great as he was , hung around too long.

Oddly I feel a captain must demand that they respect themselves and walk the walk.

Thanks, Ironman. Great minds think alike, as they say! :cool:
 
I think the Euro players are kept in shape for the Mosconi cup because they play each other continually on the Euro tour. The Euro tour usually has the best from each country continually playing against each other and the Euro tour plays in different countries - and that means you must travel and play under different conditions . The Euro tour also puts you under pressure to play your best for your country - so the Euros play under these conditions all the time.
 
I wrote the shot, as described. I saw that shot, as it was described. The shot was described correctly. And it happened, whether you want to believe it or not. :)

Just as you have a disdain for professional pool players are aren't of the pool purist ilk, so, too, do professional pool players with an established track record of winning tournaments, winning cash, and winning with shots executed EXACTLY as described to instructors who aren't capable of winning anything on pool table.

I mean, after all, let's face it. If an instructor was able to execute what they try to teach, then their performance on a field of tournament blue would be flawless, and we'd be seeing them in the winner's circle more times than not. Just food for thought there, Scott. :grin-square:

Jam...Please don't put words in my mouth. I only have "disdain", if you want to call it that, for players, pro or not, who show no respect for the sport by their behavior on and off the table. Most good professional instructors can demonstrate what they teach. The difference is that they have the communication skills to explain it using correct physics and terminology, whereas many pros, when asked how to do something respond with, "Like this", and simply make the shot. Again...this is not directed at Keith, so save the indignant response.

If you choose to believe that a pro player is automatically a better teacher, because they perform better in competitive situations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. This has been proven wrong in many sports for decades. Pool is no different.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Jam...Please don't put words in my mouth. I only have "disdain", if you want to call it that, for players, pro or not, who show no respect for the sport by their behavior on and off the table. Most good professional instructors can demonstrate what they teach. The difference is that they have the communication skills to explain it using correct physics and terminology, whereas many pros, when asked how to do something respond with, "Like this", and simply make the shot. Again...this is not directed at Keith, so save the indignant response.

If you choose to believe that a pro player is automatically a better teacher, because they perform better in competitive situations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. This has been proven wrong in many sports for decades. Pool is no different.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

What I am trying to relay, which stems to the original point you were addressing, is that already-established professional players may not accept being "coached" by someone that they have not established a relationship with previously.

In the case I wrote, which you wrote "or it didn't happen," since I didn't show you the article or name the instructor, well, Scott, it did indeed occur that Keith's instructional shot was described correctly. The so-called "instructor" stated the shot could not be made with the english Keith said, but the instructor was wrong. I saw the shot executed with the english Keith stated. The so-called "instructor" said it was impossible. Therein likes the tension and conflict. Keith immediately thinks, "Well, who the hell is this instructor telling me this shot doesn't work with this english when I've executed it umpteen thousands of times? What has he won?"

Some so-called "pro players" may not perform to your liking, Scott, but I have found since I've been reading this forum that there are some pro players that no matter how they act, the pool purists of the pool world don't like them. They would rather watch emotionless robots play mum pool. And that's fine. It's not my cup of tea. I'd rather see a little emotion in pool. Pool purists prefer something different that what I might like.

It's really easy to come on this forum, which the majority of members here do on a daily basis, and fire computer-sniping potshots at professional pool players, especially the Americans. They don't dress right, they don't act right, they don't look right, they don't jump, they don't bow down, they don't do charities, they don't give products for free away, they don't do this, they don't do that. It's getting old. I stand as probably the minority voice for pro players, and I am also an action enthusiast, one who enjoys emotion in pool.

Are professional players perfect? Heck no. But neither is the BCA, industry members, instructors, tournament directors, tournament promoters, et cetera. Everybody could use a little improvement in this regard.

To effect a change for the better at the Mosconi Cup for Team North America or Team USA, whatever it will be, the players and coach must have a bonding period for them to work well together. Otherwise, we'll have the same old thing.

Mark Wilson might be a pool messiah to those he teaches, but for him to be effective in the Mosconi Cup, he needs to have the respect of the team. Throwing a good instructor in the middle of a team where it's every man for himself, like this last Mosconi Cup, won't work. The coach and the team must work in unison. Otherwise, just like Keith being insulted when the so-called "instructor" said his written shot was impossible, so, too, may the professional pool players of the next Mosconi Cup team for America. They may not like a "stranger," someone they have no relationship with, giving them guidance, coaching, instruction, whatever you want to call it.
 
Emotion is great if it's in between racks. Half the US team decided instead to show theirs at all times. Is it entertaining? Sure, but I'd much rather see "my" team win than be entertained.

And again, if Mark were the captain, his job wouldn't be to instruct the players how to play. He posseses certain leadership qualities that frankly previous captains have lacked.
 
JAM...I'm really surprised at you. How many times has someone posted the "pics or it didn't happen" phrase (as a joke response)?...hundreds, thousands? It was mostly a joke, but on the serious side I'd like to know who the "instructor" was, and what the shot was...as I never saw your original post. You are welcome to PM me, if you don't want to mention it here, and I will keep it private here beteen us. I know plenty of "professional instructors" (PBIA or not), who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Whoever this was could certainly have been wrong, and I'm not sticking up for them...but I would like to be able to make an educated response. Please don't drag the BCA into this thread (we all know how you feel about them, and I agree that you are not entirely wrong). It has nothing to do with the subject matter.

FTR, I have always enjoyed pro players with emotion (like Earl and Keith, among many others), over the "robots" you contiually bring up. Ralf and Thorsten could be considered "robotic" in their play, but they are very personable, and thoroughly accomplished world-class players. They also never have ANY deportment issues...at least not in pubic! There is a world of difference in how players act when gambling (that's their business, and nobody else's) and tournament play on a world stage. Jack White taught me an important lesson decades ago...if you want to be paid like a professional, then dress like a professional, act like a professional, and behave like a professional. I have embodied those words into my own philosophy, and done all of those things. Mark Wilson has also adopted that same philosophy, and he was a top pro player for many years, before making the decision to trust his future to being a professional instructor.

What I said about how some pros try to explain things is not wrong...and as long as you've been around pro pool, I'm surprised that you would disagree with that statement. Personally, I would just like to see what you're talking about, and make my own decision. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

In the case I wrote, which you wrote "or it didn't happen," since I didn't show you the article or name the instructor, well, Scott, it did indeed occur that Keith's instructional shot was described correctly. The so-called "instructor" stated the shot could not be made with the english Keith said, but the instructor was wrong. I saw the shot executed with the english Keith stated. The so-called "instructor" said it was impossible. Therein likes the tension and conflict. Keith immediately thinks, "Well, who the hell is this instructor telling me this shot doesn't work with this english when I've executed it umpteen thousands of times? What has he won?"

Some so-called "pro players" may not perform to your liking, Scott, but I have found since I've been reading this forum that there are some pro players that no matter how they act, the pool purists of the pool world don't like them. They would rather watch emotionless robots play mum pool. And that's fine. It's not my cup of tea. I'd rather see a little emotion in pool. Pool purists prefer something different that what I might like.

It's really easy to come on this forum, which the majority of members here do on a daily basis, and fire computer-sniping potshots at professional pool players, especially the Americans. They don't dress right, they don't act right, they don't look right, they don't jump, they don't bow down, they don't do charities, they don't give products for free away, they don't do this, they don't do that. It's getting old. I stand as probably the minority voice for pro players, and I am also an action enthusiast, one who enjoys emotion in pool.

Are professional players perfect? Heck no. But neither is the BCA, industry members, instructors, tournament directors, tournament promoters, et cetera. Everybody could use a little improvement in this regard.

To effect a change for the better at the Mosconi Cup for Team North America or Team USA, whatever it will be, the players and coach must have a bonding period for them to work well together. Otherwise, we'll have the same old thing.

Mark Wilson might be a pool messiah to those he teaches, but for him to be effective in the Mosconi Cup, he needs to have the respect of the team. Throwing a good instructor in the middle of a team where it's every man for himself, like this last Mosconi Cup, won't work. The coach and the team must work in unison. Otherwise, just like Keith being insulted when the so-called "instructor" said his written shot was impossible, so, too, may the professional pool players of the next Mosconi Cup team for America. They may not like a "stranger," someone they have no relationship with, giving them guidance, coaching, instruction, whatever you want to call it.
 
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it's best to learn from the piano player, not the director

I wrote the shot, as described. I saw that shot, as it was described. The shot was described correctly. And it happened, whether you want to believe it or not. :)

Just as you have a disdain for professional pool players are aren't of the pool purist ilk, so, too, do professional pool players with an established track record of winning tournaments, winning cash, and winning with shots executed EXACTLY as described to instructors who aren't capable of winning anything on pool table.

The instructors who claim their words of wisdom are more mighty than a professional player aren't always right on some topics, though I realize they believe that they are. :wink:

I mean, after all, let's face it. If an instructor was able to execute what they try to teach, then their performance on a field of tournament blue would be flawless, and we'd be seeing them in the winner's circle more times than not
. Just food for thought there, Scott. :grin-square:

Of course, you're right, JAM.....if you want to learn to play the piano, it's best to learn from the piano player, not the director. ;)
 
Actually it's better to learn from the piano teacher...until you learn enough to take advantage of what the really good piano player knows how to show you about playing style. Many people simply don't possess the physical skills to play at a higher level (piano or pool), even though they have "learned" (or tried to copy) what a really accomplished player can do. Give someone solid fundamentals, that can be ingrained, and the application of the knowledge about how to play is much more accessible and applicable. Some teachers teach A-Z without taking into consideration whether or not the student understands what they're talking about. I've seen it in both pool and piano teachers. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Of course, you're right, JAM.....if you want to learn to play the piano, it's best to learn from the piano player, not the director. ;)
 
Of course, you're right, JAM.....if you want to learn to play the piano, it's best to learn from the piano player, not the director. ;)

IF she was right, and you were right, then you should have no problem at all going to the next tournament and snapping it off. But, we both know that isn't going to happen, and why it isn't. So, your argument holds no water whatsoever. ( not to mention, again, that it has been totally debunked by instructors and coaches in many sports over the last few decades)
 
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but from what i saw our scotch doubles play was especially horrible and the Euros were right on track and at ease with it. I thought our communication (or over communication) was very flawed. Rodney was the worst and even seemed at times to be distracting and sharking his partners. It was very evident to me and when he played with Johnny he was really bad and seemed all wired. Telling your opponent where you want the ball on nearly every shot with a good partner is not the way to play scotch doubles and is very distracting. Communicating with each other on something difficult on occasion is cool and supportive. But telling a fellow Pro player how to get shapes on a easy table on nearly every shot is not productive and gets you out of the flow of the run. Even for the pros. I think this issue needs to be addressed by future captains.

Yeah - he appeared to be unprepared for battle.

It was especially frustrating watching him play with Johnny Archer and prior to every one of his shots he had to walk over and ask Johnny for the chalk. That may seem like a little thing to some, but to me it was a completely unnecessary break of concentration for both players. "Good grief! Get your own piece of chalk already!" I kept thinking to myself.

There were all kinds of little things like that - that the U.S. Team did that the Euro's didn't.

I bet these little things are things that someone like Mark Wilson would be able to put a stop to. He wouldn't rebuild their strokes or anything like that but maybe just put them on the right path when it comes to playing in a team environment. All those little things add up in a format like this.

I think another big thing the U.S. Team needs to do better is not get so excited after each and every rack. This may make for good TV but it’s probably not so good when it comes to staying focused on the ultimate goal of winning the Cup.

I could go on and on with all the little things the U.S. Team did wrong but I’ll stop….well right after I mention they also need to keep the family members sitting quietly in the stands and stop them from coming up and interrupting the players. There that’s enough.

A good coach would eliminate all these distractions.
 
Why Mark for Mosconi Cup Captain

In the past I'd heard only a little about Mark. I'm not quite sure why he's being pushed up by some here as possible US Cup captain.

I only know he was on The Cup way back when, wrote a book, and is a coach for Linderwood University - why would he be a top choice to captain the US Cup team?

Perhaps in this thread, I, and others can learn more @ him. Thanks pro9dg!

IMO, several things make Mark a great choice for Mosconi's Cup Captain:

He once played on the US M Cup team and knows what it takes to win a team event such as this.
He know the players both personally and professionally and would match his players against opponents better than previous coaches
Much like Nick Varner, he knows how to win.
He can call on his former mentor and long time friend, Jerry Brieseth, Master BCA instructor as his assistant, and get more traction than was gained by Buddy Hall.

Regarding Mark's book. I bought it and believe it was a sound investment based on what I have gleaned so far. Also, I have had private lessons from both Mark Wilson and Jerry Brieseth, and believe working together, they would take our very talented team of individual players nod make them better. Guarantee the players would have the respect needed to make them win the next cup event.

Learn from the best, and out perform the rest.

Cross Side Larry
 
Mark would indeed be a good choice. So would Pat Fleming, among others. But let's face it, the problem with this year's MC started when MR decided to hand pick the teams. They probably got what they wanted (I'm mean did anyone not see it coming?) but it was not in the best interests of the US squad from the get-go.
 
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.......

Mark Wilson might be a pool messiah to those he teaches, but for him to be effective in the Mosconi Cup, he needs to have the respect of the team. Throwing a good instructor in the middle of a team where it's every man for himself, like this last Mosconi Cup, won't work. The coach and the team must work in unison. Otherwise, just like Keith being insulted when the so-called "instructor" said his written shot was impossible, so, too, may the professional pool players of the next Mosconi Cup team for America. They may not like a "stranger," someone they have no relationship with, giving them guidance, coaching, instruction, whatever you want to call it.

Mark is not a pool messiah, even to those he teaches. I do, however, understand why that terminology was chosen, and its because of the context in which he teaches the kids about pool: respect, honesty and integrity, on and off the table, which is something that could "save " the image of pool games from the gutter it is currently wallowing in.

That said, I also understand what you mean, JAM, about the potential friction betwixt instructors and those who consider themselves accomplished players.

I also agree, that quality pool does not need to be boring, so I'd like to point out that honesty and integrity do not automatically equate to robotic players. When it comes to spectators, which is what sponsors want, which is where big money comes from, the matches NEED to mean something - the audience NEEDS a reason to connect with a player, or players, so that the win or loss means something to them as well. This is something that 99.999% of promoters and streamers have skipped right over while planning their events, but that's fodder for another thread.

As for the player - coach relationship, its not necessarily about being told what shot to make or how to make it. It's more about having someone to enforce and supervise the elements of teamwork that the players already want to have happening. The players want to win. They do. So its not like someone needs to shove something down their throat like a special aiming system or pre shot routine, because by and large, professional players have already reached a level of play where this is not needed. Having a good coach is having another set of eyes, to see what your own bias cannot comprehend, just like a music producer or editor does, he or she is there to HELP you achieve what you ALREADY know that you want. At the pro level, its much too late to try to teach someone how to execute a shot.

Friction between coaches and players can basically be attributed to one major flaw: PRIDE. Nobody wants to be told, or even appear to be told, what to do. Especially men. But that's where it comes down to the attitude adjustment and the knowledge that uncoachable people need the most. They need to know that the coach isn't there for any reason other than to help them achieve their OWN goals, not the coaches goals. But unfortunately many players, of all games, do not get this, and their attitude reflects it. ANYone who says "I don't need no stinking coach" is stubborn and idiotic. And any coach who says "my way or the highway" might as well herd cats.

In the big scheme of things, all of these crushed toes can easily be avoided with the simple act of communication. Yes, the one thing that makes humans so god-dammed awesome is that we can communicate. "All we have to do is keep talking"
 
Great post Dave, and the part about the "coach" helping the players to achieve their own goals (even if it's just a little "rah rah") was spot on. One of the things KT did right was to allow a "cornerman". Some players took advantage of that option...some didn't. IMO, the smart ones did! :D One thing for certain, Mark possesses the communication and leadership skills necessary for the MC job!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mark is not a pool messiah, even to those he teaches. I do, however, understand why that terminology was chosen, and its because of the context in which he teaches the kids about pool: respect, honesty and integrity, on and off the table, which is something that could "save " the image of pool games from the gutter it is currently wallowing in.

That said, I also understand what you mean, JAM, about the potential friction betwixt instructors and those who consider themselves accomplished players.

I also agree, that quality pool does not need to be boring, so I'd like to point out that honesty and integrity do not automatically equate to robotic players. When it comes to spectators, which is what sponsors want, which is where big money comes from, the matches NEED to mean something - the audience NEEDS a reason to connect with a player, or players, so that the win or loss means something to them as well. This is something that 99.999% of promoters and streamers have skipped right over while planning their events, but that's fodder for another thread.

As for the player - coach relationship, its not necessarily about being told what shot to make or how to make it. It's more about having someone to enforce and supervise the elements of teamwork that the players already want to have happening. The players want to win. They do. So its not like someone needs to shove something down their throat like a special aiming system or pre shot routine, because by and large, professional players have already reached a level of play where this is not needed. Having a good coach is having another set of eyes, to see what your own bias cannot comprehend, just like a music producer or editor does, he or she is there to HELP you achieve what you ALREADY know that you want. At the pro level, its much too late to try to teach someone how to execute a shot.

Friction between coaches and players can basically be attributed to one major flaw: PRIDE. Nobody wants to be told, or even appear to be told, what to do. Especially men. But that's where it comes down to the attitude adjustment and the knowledge that uncoachable people need the most. They need to know that the coach isn't there for any reason other than to help them achieve their OWN goals, not the coaches goals. But unfortunately many players, of all games, do not get this, and their attitude reflects it. ANYone who says "I don't need no stinking coach" is stubborn and idiotic. And any coach who says "my way or the highway" might as well herd cats.

In the big scheme of things, all of these crushed toes can easily be avoided with the simple act of communication. Yes, the one thing that makes humans so god-dammed awesome is that we can communicate. "All we have to do is keep talking"
 
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