Dean Cue pics

pdcue said:
It wouls seem there was much about my post you misunderstood,
but that is for another day...

Main point is, the diference you see in the playability
of a carom cue is overwhelmingly due to the profile and
wood of the shaft - not the joint construction.

Dale<there may be a Lone Ranger, but there ain't no silver bullits>
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Disclaimer - I am NOT a cuemaker so my words only come from personal experience with many many many cues.

Previously I mentioned that we had a shop in Germany where I had over 100 cues on the wall. Among those were the Italian carom cue and the carom/pool hybrid and also several Shulers with many Schuler shafts of varying tapers. During my many "comparison" phases I tried out the Shuler against the Italian, and Dutch carom cues and against the italian pool/carom hybrid (can I just call them PCH for short?).

The Shuler had maple shafts with almost the same taper as the carom cues. It had the particular Shuler metal joint whereas the carom cues all had the wood pin that was part of the shaft. I personally could do more with the carom cues than I could with the Shuler.

So I very much believe that the joint has a lot to do with the way the cue performs. However I also believe that the difference between similarly jointed cues - those with metal pins is very little compared to the difference between metal jointed and wood jointed cues.

As to what I misunderstood from your post all I can say is that this seems to be happening more and more as I get older. :-) Just turned 40 so my comprehension is probably gone along with my back.

Best,

John
 
JB Cases said:
I beg to differ. Disclaimer - I am NOT a cuemaker so my words only come from personal experience with many many many cues.

Previously I mentioned that we had a shop in Germany where I had over 100 cues on the wall. Among those were the Italian carom cue and the carom/pool hybrid and also several Shulers with many Schuler shafts of varying tapers. During my many "comparison" phases I tried out the Shuler against the Italian, and Dutch carom cues and against the italian pool/carom hybrid (can I just call them PCH for short?).

The Shuler had maple shafts with almost the same taper as the carom cues. It had the particular Shuler metal joint whereas the carom cues all had the wood pin that was part of the shaft. I personally could do more with the carom cues than I could with the Shuler.

So I very much believe that the joint has a lot to do with the way the cue performs. However I also believe that the difference between similarly jointed cues - those with metal pins is very little compared to the difference between metal jointed and wood jointed cues.

As to what I misunderstood from your post all I can say is that this seems to be happening more and more as I get older. :-) Just turned 40 so my comprehension is probably gone along with my back.

Best,

John
Click to expand...

Trust me, what you "could do" with the cue has much more
to do with you, than the cue.

Comparing the Scheuler 'ahem, unique' joint vs other carom,
or even hybrid cuies is pretty well meaningless.

This discussion started out about a wodden tenon pool cue
with a Southwest-esque shaft taper.

Your question, will this style of joint 'take over' American
pool cue design? - not bloody likely.

Your implied opinion that this joint design is somehow inherently
superior to traditional pool cue joints - I have seen no compelling
evidence.

As to whether this specific cue will in fact, improve your game,
I will leave to others to decide on their own.

One minor disclaimer: I do understand pool well enough to realize,
as many, many others do, If you TRULY believe it will,
then it will... in the short run.

Over time, no way to tell till you get there.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
Trust me, what you "could do" with the cue has much more
to do with you, than the cue.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that it's all me and not the cue? That no cue can influence the cue ball more or less? If that is what you are saying then I respectfully and firmly disagree. Most people with any degree of skill know instinctively that cues perform differently with something as small as a change in tip. Predator and Meucci have documented performance differences as well. I did say several times that humans can adapt to anything. Semih Sayginer can play better pool than I can with a pure Snooker cue in his hands. That has nothing to do with whether a different cue would perform better for him.



Comparing the Scheuler 'ahem, unique' joint vs other carom,
or even hybrid cuies is pretty well meaningless.
Click to expand...

Is it? You said that shaft wood and taper are the key. So with two cues which have the same tapers and shaft wood but radically different joints what explains the difference in performance? Oh, human adapability. I suppose I chose to not be able to do as much with the cueball with the Shuler.


This discussion started out about a wodden tenon pool cue
with a Southwest-esque shaft taper.
Click to expand...

The discussion is about what makes one cue perform "better" than another. Most of us were surprised to see that Dean's cue has a wooden pin. My personal experience mirrors the experiences of those who have tried Dean's cues but with similar hybrids. (similar at least from appearance).


Your question, will this style of joint 'take over' American
pool cue design? - not bloody likely.
Click to expand...

Probably not. However I think that more people are open to experimenting with something that has always been around but never gained any traction due to a variety of reasons which have less to do with how well this particular method of construction "plays". On thing that is interesting is that most good players and cuemakers seem to agree that the best cue is a one piece cue. So it seems to me that a cue which is true wood to wood in the joint is closer to a one piece cue than a cue which uses metal for the joint pin.

Your implied opinion that this joint design is somehow inherently
superior to traditional pool cue joints - I have seen no compelling
evidence.
Click to expand...

I implied nothing of the sort. I merely stated my personal experience with such jointed cues and observed that I personally could do more with them than with "pure" pool cues. According to you since the wood pin joint has been in use since the 1800s I would say that it has seniority and deserves the "traditional" designation.

As for evidence you are unlikely to see any because there are not enough of these hybrids out there and no one of consequence in the larger world of cue manufacturing taking up the challenge of making and testing these cues. I think if Predator were to declare that this construction method is the greatest thing on Earth then a lot more regular folks would try it simply because they trust Predator. In fact though if you talk to Allan McCarty, the owner of Predator, he feels that Carom cues are inherently superior to pool cues and has directed the engineering of the Predator cues to emulate as much as possible the performance characteristics of carom cues - but with familiar pool cue specifications.

As to whether this specific cue will in fact, improve your game,
I will leave to others to decide on their own.
Click to expand...

Of course. I have said nothing of the sort to indicate that it or any other cue will "improve" anyone's game. I hope that nothing I said led you to believe that. Being able to "do more" with one cue does not imply any greater control over that "more". I can go faster in Michael Shumacher's racecar but I would surely crash in the first turn.

One minor disclaimer: I do understand pool well enough to realize,
as many, many others do, If you TRULY believe it will,
then it will... in the short run.
Click to expand...


Now we are into metaphysics and not actual physics. The discussion I was having is about whether one major difference in cue design can make a significant difference in performance of the cue. HOW performance is defined and measured is another subject. Humans are of course quite adaptable in what they can do and highly influenced by what they believe.

Humans also have the ability to feel physical differences and nuance that machines cannot measure. One thing however remains constant, no human being can draw the cue four table lengths on faith. To do that requires the physical ability, the developed skill AND proper equipment.

So if a human can perform this task marginally with one piece of equipment and superbly with the other then it must be assumed that the person possesses the requisite ability and skill and that the difference in performance lies with the equipment.

Over time, no way to tell till you get there.
Click to expand...

However, once you are there how do you explain how you got there?
 
It is all just temporary hype.

I can go into a diatribe here, but will save it for once. Six months from now, the new owners of the Deanos will be playing with the old favorites in public. Not really flattering for a cuemaker when one of his first customers nicknames it "ugly stick" and leaves it at the office. And, if they decide they really like the carom joint concept, they will look at other makers who are already making higher end because they have more experience as a cue maker than Deano's "new to cuemaking" engineer. This is not meant as a slam of his ability either. Like my first post here, it looks like it was made from an old wallhanger. Nobody jumped me on that one.


Anybody want to ride English Saddle? A few, but not most.
 
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our_auctionguy said:
I can go into a diatribe here, but will save it for once. Six months from now, the new owners of the Deanos will be playing with the old favorites in public. Not really flattering for a cuemaker when one of his first customers nicknames it "ugly stick" and leaves it at the office. And, if they decide they really like the carom joint concept, they will look at other makers who are already making higher end because they have more experience as a cue maker than Deano's "new to cuemaking" engineer. This is not meant as a slam of his ability either. Like my first post here, it looks like it was made from an old wallhanger. Nobody jumped me on that one.


Anybody want to ride English Saddle? A few, but not most.
Click to expand...


roflmao ;)

Die-Go_try_this.jpg
 
you're selling a lot of these prototypes right? why put a deadline on it then. just keep selling them as well as your higher end cues (that're on the way)
 
our_auctionguy - question - off topic.

can i borrow your rack?

i just got forked for a 2nd time on az.

i need to vent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol fwiw, nothing - huh!

all the best,
miles
 
JB Cases said:
So you are saying that it's all me and not the cue? That no cue can influence the cue ball more or less? If that is what you are saying then I respectfully and firmly disagree. Most people with any degree of skill know instinctively that cues perform differently with something as small as a change in tip. Predator and Meucci have documented performance differences as well. I did say several times that humans can adapt to anything. Semih Sayginer can play better pool than I can with a pure Snooker cue in his hands. That has nothing to do with whether a different cue would perform better for him.





Is it? You said that shaft wood and taper are the key. So with two cues which have the same tapers and shaft wood but radically different joints what explains the difference in performance? Oh, human adapability. I suppose I chose to not be able to do as much with the cueball with the Shuler.




The discussion is about what makes one cue perform "better" than another. Most of us were surprised to see that Dean's cue has a wooden pin. My personal experience mirrors the experiences of those who have tried Dean's cues but with similar hybrids. (similar at least from appearance).




Probably not. However I think that more people are open to experimenting with something that has always been around but never gained any traction due to a variety of reasons which have less to do with how well this particular method of construction "plays". On thing that is interesting is that most good players and cuemakers seem to agree that the best cue is a one piece cue. So it seems to me that a cue which is true wood to wood in the joint is closer to a one piece cue than a cue which uses metal for the joint pin.



I implied nothing of the sort. I merely stated my personal experience with such jointed cues and observed that I personally could do more with them than with "pure" pool cues. According to you since the wood pin joint has been in use since the 1800s I would say that it has seniority and deserves the "traditional" designation.

As for evidence you are unlikely to see any because there are not enough of these hybrids out there and no one of consequence in the larger world of cue manufacturing taking up the challenge of making and testing these cues. I think if Predator were to declare that this construction method is the greatest thing on Earth then a lot more regular folks would try it simply because they trust Predator. In fact though if you talk to Allan McCarty, the owner of Predator, he feels that Carom cues are inherently superior to pool cues and has directed the engineering of the Predator cues to emulate as much as possible the performance characteristics of carom cues - but with familiar pool cue specifications.



Of course. I have said nothing of the sort to indicate that it or any other cue will "improve" anyone's game. I hope that nothing I said led you to believe that. Being able to "do more" with one cue does not imply any greater control over that "more". I can go faster in Michael Shumacher's racecar but I would surely crash in the first turn.




Now we are into metaphysics and not actual physics. The discussion I was having is about whether one major difference in cue design can make a significant difference in performance of the cue. HOW performance is defined and measured is another subject. Humans are of course quite adaptable in what they can do and highly influenced by what they believe.

Humans also have the ability to feel physical differences and nuance that machines cannot measure. One thing however remains constant, no human being can draw the cue four table lengths on faith. To do that requires the physical ability, the developed skill AND proper equipment.

So if a human can perform this task marginally with one piece of equipment and superbly with the other then it must be assumed that the person possesses the requisite ability and skill and that the difference in performance lies with the equipment.



However, once you are there how do you explain how you got there?
Click to expand...

To address the only point that matters,
because you can't 'perform' at the limit of a cue.

Think of Formula racing, in the early days, the drivers were capable of driving faster than the cars could go, so basicaly, the fastest CAR won.
Imagine if all the cars could go 600mph, then the fastest DRIVER will win.

All that red ink to say you beleive in magic...

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
To address the only point that matters,
because you can't 'perform' at the limit of a cue.

Think of Formula racing, in the early days, the drivers were capable of driving faster than the cars could go, so basicaly, the fastest CAR won.
Imagine if all the cars could go 600mph, then the fastest DRIVER will win.

All that red ink to say you beleive in magic...

Dale
Click to expand...

I am sorry but I think that you missed my point entirely.

To use your example though, if the fastest car wins when the drivers can perform better than the car itself then that proves that equipment matters.

And I agree that when all cars are at the limit of the ground speed then the most skilled driver wins.

However if you are saying that cues are at their performance limit and it's all skill now then you are mistaken.

You are teh one who said you think that it's all magic not me. If I understand you correctly then according to you it's ALL the person with nothing attributable to the cue. I guess all those cue makers who claim that their cues play better are lying to their customers or are very deluded.

IF you are any kind of a cuemaker AT ALL then you know full well that construction matters very much in how a cue plays.

But back to the "only point that matters", which according to you is that I can't perform to the limit of the cue - whatever that means - let's say it's true and that my stroke is horrible and I can't run two balls. What then do you attribute the difference to on a standard draw shot where the object is to draw the cue ball back four feet to the end rail and with Cue A I can do it every time and with Cue B I can't do it five out of ten times? Please tell me the first thing that comes to mind as to why I would do the the shot with ease with one cue and struggle with another?
 
Everyone read about Dean's cue gained something...

What Dean did with his "experiment" was open up more eyes and minds to something not new, but something most have chosen to ignore out of ignorance on the subject: the playability of the wooden carom joint.

He can argue his is different, but it is probably more alike than different, because my past experience with a carom cue's characteristic hit has been a very favorable one, as well.

Meucci. McDermott, Viking, Palmer, and the list goes on were probably the names on some of the first production cues most of us ever owned or played with before we acquired the lust for custom named cues like Scrugss, Southwest, or the new Dean. I was 24 when I got my first Viking after playing with wallhangers from the age of 8. I was 21 when I was offered a real Balabushka for $600 in Dallas from a road player that had 2 of them. I only had $350 in my pocket and my pocket was my bank account. :( I played Allen Hopkins that year for $20 a game just because he had recently won the national in Vegas and no one would play him when he came through Dallas. I wanted to see his game so badly I figured I could afford 6 games. Shazaam! I got to shoot twice in 6 games because he let me poke at a couple in game 6 so I could tell people I actually played Allen Hopkins. The front row seat at that time was worth the $120 to me. The point being is that like a lot of AZers, I have been around pool since the 60's and 70's, and the few times I saw a carom jointed cue it was in a sales ad or a store and not another players hands. My first thought has always been pretty much nil " naaaaahh! Next thought....."

Why is this? Mainly ignorance and the preconceived notion placed in our tiny little brains by nearly every cue manufacturer in the U.S. that a "real cue" is supposed to have a metal screw in the butt to be a pool cue.

So.... when we see that carom joint it, just doesn't look right and we immediately dismiss it. I actually played with a Helmstetter carom cue for about 10 minutes about 10 years ago one day at a store in Denver. I was really impressed with the hit and feel, BUT.......... all that history of owning Vikings and Meuccis, and hitting balls with someone else's Balabushka, or Richard Black, caused that little voice in my tiny little brain to say "This can't be right, a real American cue isn't supposed to feel like this or look like this..... hmmmm"

Now looking back, the hit was more solid than my current Blevins which I think the world of. So, my point is: Dean has done something most here couldn't through words. He has gotten a bunch of guys to commit to trying a carom jointed cue through his circus show tactics. It will open eyes, but I don't think many will get on the phone to Pete Tascarella, or whoever their favorite cuemaker is and ask ... " Have you thought about making some carom jointed cues? If so, sign me up" Our tiny little brains will prevent that.
 
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Salamander said:
Looks like a poor mans Starkey. For $300, I'd rather have a Starkey.
Click to expand...


Exactly what I was thinking !!!!!!

And, my Starkey should be here in a couple of weeks.......:)

Russ.....
 
our_auctionguy said:
What Dean did with his "experiment" was open up more eyes and minds to something not new, but something most have chosen to ignore out of ignorance on the subject: the playability of the wooden carom joint.

He can argue his is different, but it is probably more alike than different, because my past experience with a carom cue's characteristic hit has been a very favorable one, as well.

Meucci. McDermott, Viking, Palmer, and the list goes on were probably the names on some of the first production cues most of us ever owned or played with before we acquired the lust for custom named cues like Scrugss, Southwest, or the new Dean. I was 24 when I got my first Viking after playing with wallhangers from the age of 8. I was 21 when I was offered a real Balabushka for $600 in Dallas from a road player that had 2 of them. I only had $350 in my pocket and my pocket was my bank account. :( I played Allen Hopkins that year for $20 a game just because he had recently won the national in Vegas and no one would play him when he came through Dallas. I wanted to see his game so badly I figured I could afford 6 games. Shazaam! I got to shoot twice in 6 games because he let me poke at a couple in game 6 so I could tell people I actually played Allen Hopkins. The front row seat at that time was worth the $120 to me. The point being is that like a lot of AZers, I have been around pool since the 60's and 70's, and the few times I saw a carom jointed cue it was in a sales ad or a store and not another players hands. My first thought has always been pretty much nil " naaaaahh! Next thought....."

Why is this? Mainly ignorance and the preconceived notion placed in our tiny little brains by nearly every cue manufacturer in the U.S. that a "real cue" is supposed to have a metal screw in the butt to be a pool cue.

So.... when we see that carom joint it, just doesn't look right and we immediately dismiss it. I actually played with a Helmstetter carom cue for about 10 minutes about 10 years ago one day at a store in Denver. I was really impressed with the hit and feel, BUT.......... all that history of owning Vikings and Meuccis, and hitting balls with someone else's Balabushka, or Richard Black, caused that little voice in my tiny little brain to say "This can't be right, a real American cue isn't supposed to feel like this or look like this..... hmmmm"

Now looking back, the hit was more solid than my current Blevins which I think the world of. So, my point is: Dean has done something most here couldn't through words. He has gotten a bunch of guys to commit to trying a carom jointed cue through his circus show tactics. It will open eyes, but I don't think many will get on the phone to Pete Tascarella, or whoever their favorite cuemaker is and ask ... " Have you thought about making some carom jointed cues? If so, sign me up" Our tiny little brains will prevent that.
Click to expand...
I to have owned/played with some great cues by great makers,I also have played with a cue by deanoc's builder! The cue I had was the same as cue everyone has been talking about.Notice I said "had"? Cue did really play well-but no wrap makes for a slick cue when hands get sweaty-the long joint which probably is the reason for great hit wouln't allow cue to fit in any of my cases.Deanoc is a good guy,cuemaker is a goodguy and I sure enjoyed all the posts! Thanks Jack
 
I enjoyed your comments,one thing you mention that the wrapless cues get sticky,I planned for that by not putting a standard finish on my cues even though the cost was not significantly more,and the appearance was better if I did,The reason for the tung oil finish was it kept me from getting a clmmy right hand,which affects my play.I want it to play better for me.
Today a famous authority on pool,a tremendous billiard player explained to me that the finish actually can affect the play.He used concepts that were above my understanding,but said that I had stunbled into what he could prove is best.

I am conducting an experiment with several factors,not just the joint,things no one on this forum has mentioned yet.I believe it would be wise to all of us to wait for the results rather than speculate. If this cue works I don't have any desire to claim I invented anything,I merely put together several ideas that had been used individually but not collectively before.I may not find the results support my hypothesis,but for someone who doesn't know half of what we are doing,.That person is stupid to decide in advance that they already know and therfore experimenting is
useless.

Perhaps there are some who are put off by my "P T Barnum" sales approach.Fair enough let them say so,but to accuse me of dishonesty is not fair unless they can produce actual statements that are deceptive.Its not enough to prove I may be wrong.

I welcome the chance to have 100 people hit my cue and hit a Dennis Searing ,lets put it to a test.Iam willing to bet that some will choose mine. I am willing to put mine to the test.Now before anyone gets excited I have never seen Dennis or his cue,but I welcome a challenge.

And for those who say it doesn't matter what cue you play with I will play Efren even one pocket using my cue,if he uses the cue I choose for him.
 
I let a few others try the cue tonight. All three thought the cue hit great. One person who has been playing with the same Southwest since 1987, couldn't believe it hit like his cue. They asked what it cost and who made it. I told them it cost $300 and that I didn't know the maker. They asked me where I got it and I informed them that I purchased it from some old guy in Texas off the AZ board. It seems they don't know about AZ. It was funny to hear the comments when I unscrewed it and they saw the wooden screw in the shaft (LOL).
Glen
 
Please share for our amusement

nasc said:
I let a few others try the cue tonight. All three thought the cue hit great. One person who has been playing with the same Southwest since 1987, couldn't believe it hit like his cue. They asked what it cost and who made it. I told them it cost $300 and that I didn't know the maker. They asked me where I got it and I informed them that I purchased it from some old guy in Texas off the AZ board. It seems they don't know about AZ. It was funny to hear the comments when I unscrewed it and they saw the wooden screw in the shaft (LOL).
Glen
Click to expand...

What were their comments that were so funny? Don't leave us hanging.
 
our_auctionguy said:
What were their comments that were so funny? Don't leave us hanging.
Click to expand...
I don't think the mods would let me publish the complete text. But they sounded something like this: What the fxxx is that, you got to be s___ me, what the fxxx is that thing, along with other questions. Catch my drift, auction guy?
Glen
 
"And for those who say it doesn't matter what cue you play with I will play Efren even one pocket using my cue,if he uses the cue I choose for him."

as long as it is a real pool cue of standard specs with a leather tip,you got me.
 
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