Efren Reyes vs Scott Frost - Who do you like?

I have been playing and watching one pocket since 1985 and I still feel Efren is easily in the top 10 recent results in tournaments would indicate that is still the case. I don't think it is simply a case of short tournament races versus what some are calling a long grueling match. I don't really consider races to 10 that long and grueling.

Having watched every game of this match so far I think most games are substantively won in the first few shots. From my view Scott is breaking extremely well and Efren has just not really been able to fully get out of the break before the game is extremely favored to Scott. Efren's breaks have been average to penalizing (scratch) and Scott has been able to neutralize many of them in the first couple of turns at the table and in a few cases actually turn around the break to his favor.

Still a lot of play left and while I was on Scott's side before the match in the Action Room I am certainly not counting out Efren as we have seen this man display extraordinary comebacks many times through the years.

I am just honored to have been living in a time where I was able to see some of the best one pocket that will ever be played over the last 30 years by both aging champions, current champions, and strong road players. Below are many I have been lucky enough to witness (I am sure I am missing some)

Bugs Rucker
Ronnie Allen
Buddy Hall
Steve Cook
Ray Martin
Billy Incardona
Danny DiLiberto
James Walden
Alex Pagulayan
Jeremy Jones
Tony Chohan
Gabe Owen
Scott Frost
Shane Van Boening
Grady Matthews
Jose Parica
Josh Roberts
Danny Smith
Dennis Orcullo
Cliff Joyner
Joey Gray
Jack Cooney


I am sure I missed a few but all of these guys were a pleasure to watch and in come cases play against.
 
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Efren is the best 1pocket player of all time, to say otherwise is ludicrous.

As to this match, his age, what he was doing beforehand, jet lag, etc., I've never known of any pool player whose game could be charted on a continuum that looked like a perfect arc. IMO, he's just having a bad day. The timing on that is unfortunate, no doubt, but every single one of us, every champion, has had days, sessions, matches, tournaments, when we could not do what we usually can. It happens.

I put a bet on Efren too, and like BmoreMoney, I'm not upset in the slightest. How can you be upset with a guy who has taught the entire community of 1pocket players new shots, new strategies, and a new level of play? Efren is in a category all his own.

Lou Figueroa
 
Put me in the group of people that think Efren was the greatest one pocket player ever, but betting on him in this match is like burning money.

It's a race to 30, and he's 60.

That's a tough mountain to climb for someone that age against the likes of Scott.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Efren was never a great 1P player...
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I completely question your definition of "great"...or "never".

You can question that Efren is the greatest ever 1P player all you want, but stating that he was "never a great 1P player" is unequivocally entering hater and/or irrational territory.
 
lfigueroa said:
Efren is the best 1pocket player of all time, to say otherwise is ludicrous.

As to this match, his age, what he was doing beforehand, jet lag, etc., I've never known of any pool player whose game could be charted on a continuum that looked like a perfect arc. IMO, he's just having a bad day. The timing on that is unfortunate, no doubt, but every single one of us, every champion, has had days, sessions, matches, tournaments, when we could not do what we usually can. It happens.

I put a bet on Efren too, and like BmoreMoney, I'm not upset in the slightest. How can you be upset with a guy who has taught the entire community of 1pocket players new shots, new strategies, and a new level of play? Efren is in a category all his own.

Lou Figueroa
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well said lou
you and I sometimes see things differently but on this i agree 100%...:)
 
wincardona said:
Any one who thinks that Reyes was never a great one pocket player is sadly mistaken, period. Reyes imo was the best one pocket player that ever played the game, he beat Allen Hopkins after only playing the game for 6 months. He gave Steve Cook 10/8 in Tampa Cooks home town and won easily. He beat Cliff Joyner giving Cliff 8/7 and destroyed him. I watched him play Leonard "Bugs" Rucker and rob him. He won 6 Derby City one pocket championships with fields of 300.to 400 entries in a race to.3, wow!!! Are you kidding me..am I missing something? I think not. Reyes is just passed his time, his game is still strong on a table that has 4-1/2" pockets where he feels comfortable playing. Of course he will never play the speed he once did, but then who ever did? Give him his just dues, he was the greatest ever.

Bill Incardona
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I have to agree with Billy and I think these small pocket tables have a big impact on Efren. He uses a lot of English and it shows up as a weakness on the small pockets and Scott knows that. Scott prefers 41/2 inch pockets but this table is 41/4 which is a big difference. Last week me and a partner played Efren and Bustamonte for 2 days partners on a Diamond with 4" pockets and a worn cloth and Efren played good but not great and was visibly frustrated at times. I saw the same thing with Ronnie on tough tables. Doubt has creeped into Efrens game and when that doubt shows up he moves on the shot. He is missing key shots that stops his run it is that simple. When he stays down he makes the ball. People talk about how he was not a great one pocket player because his end game is suspect. Think about this he played so good he didn't need an end game it rarely came up. It is brutal when a pool player has doubt on shots that normally they just shoot in, and it breaks you down. As it turns out the only one that can beat Efren is Efren and he is human. Now we will see if this great player can overcome this doubt. This is not an uncommon thing for pool players.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Put me in the group of people that think Efren was the greatest one pocket player ever, but betting on him in this match is like burning money.

It's a race to 30, and he's 60.

That's a tough mountain to climb for someone that age against the likes of Scott.
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It is spread over three days, I don't really think fatigue is the factor here. If it is then Efren is to blame for staying up playing other matches, poker, or chess as a race to 10 is not too much more burdensome than the Make It Happen event from a physical perspective in my opinion.

I agree with others that he just was not at his best the last two days and Scott has been play very well and breaking great!!!

-don
 
I don't think Scott is getting enough credit here he has just flat out played Efren in every aspect of the game and the score shows it.

I do agree that Efren's game is off for what ever reason he is just not right or i think the score would be much closer

.I was really hoping Efren could pull this off but i am not really not surprised Scott is winning considering their previous gambling matches .

Scott beating Efren playing even one pocket gambling is nothing new, Scott just has Efren's number when it comes to gambling the last six times they have played Scott has beaten Efren and barring some kind of miracle comeback today will make it seven times in a row.

The last time Scott and Alex Pagulayan played after 4 days of playing 8-10 hours a day Alex was up only one game and Alex is considered by many to be the best one pocket player on the planet that just shows how good Scott really is.

I think Alex might be the only guy that can beat Scott in a long high stakes set/race but it sure would be great to see them play again.
 
Scott has been playing the best one pocket I have seen of him, although I haven't seen ALL of his stuff. He is walking a good line between defending himself and taking some choice shots that get him a good rack now and then.

It was already mentioned, but the break has been huge in this match. Scott is consistently spreading them open REALLY good, leaving Efren with little to none when he gets to the table. On the other hand, Efren is only opening up a few at a time, letting Scott really get out of a majority of Efren's breaks last night. Had the breaks been switched around, I think the match could be more even although with the amount of mistakes Efren has made he would not be winning.
 
wincardona said:
Any one who thinks that Reyes was never a great one pocket player is sadly mistaken, period. Reyes imo was the best one pocket player that ever played the game, he beat Allen Hopkins after only playing the game for 6 months. He gave Steve Cook 10/8 in Tampa Cooks home town and won easily. He beat Cliff Joyner giving Cliff 8/7 and destroyed him. I watched him play Leonard "Bugs" Rucker and rob him. He won 6 Derby City one pocket championships with fields of 300.to 400 entries in a race to.3, wow!!! Are you kidding me..am I missing something? I think not. Reyes is just passed his time, his game is still strong on a table that has 4-1/2" pockets where he feels comfortable playing. Of course he will never play the speed he once did, but then who ever did? Give him his just dues, he was the greatest ever.

Bill Incardona
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No doubt about it. Efren is certainly the greatest all-time all-around player I've ever seen. (I never saw Harold Worst play one-pocket, so I can't comment on that. Ask Danny D).
Efren was not the best in straight pool because he hardly ever played the game; that title goes to Mosconi. He was not the best banker of all-time, that title has to go to Eddie Taylor. He was not the best 9-ball player of all-time, that title goes to Luther Lassiter. He was not the best 3-cushion player of all-time, that title goes to Raymond Ceulemans.
But, as far as One-Pocket goes, I would rank Efren in his prime as one of the best that I've ever seen, along side with Hopkins, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, and Bugs.
I never saw Squirrel play and I saw Taylor when he was past his prime.
I spoke with Efren last month and he told me that his best game was 15-ball rotation and that was between the age of 17 and 22, when he played money matches 8 hours every day in Manila. He said that by the time he came to the US his game had already declined slightly. It's hard to believe that, but those were Efren's own words.
 
1p is not my game by a bunch so I suppose I should be considered just a casual observer, though I do try hard to be good at observing. :smile:

I think it's very possible that there may have been better 'movers' than Efren in the history of 1p, but apparently he moved well enough *in combination with* all of his other phenomenal skills to have so many who really are 'in the know' to consider him the best 1p player of all time.

Hard to look away from all he has accomplished in this game.

best,
brian kc
 
jsp said:
I completely question your definition of "great"...or "never".

You can question that Efren is the greatest ever 1P player all you want, but stating that he was "never a great 1P player" is unequivocally entering hater and/or irrational territory.
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You have to understand that SJDick is in the one pocket HOF, even though I never heard of him til AZ Billiards started. I guess he feels that Efren shouldn't be in this HOF with him, cause he wasn't great.
 
Thecoats said:
Bugs Rucker
Ronnie Allen
Buddy Hall
Steve Cook
Ray Martin
Billy Incardona
Danny DiLiberto
James Walden
Alex Pagulayan
Jeremy Jones
Tony Chohan
Gabe Owen
Scott Frost
Shane Van Boening
Grady Matthews
Jose Parica
Josh Roberts
Danny Smith
Dennis Orcullo
Cliff Joyner
Joey Gray
Jack Cooney


I am sure I missed a few but all of these guys were a pleasure to watch and in come cases play against.
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That's a good list Don.....I know you are a KC guy but you can give St Louis some credit

Justin Bergman
Ricky Van Uum
Gordon Guy
Dean Higgs
Cecil Tugwell (he lived here for many years)

David Matlock could play some one pocket too, although he obviously isn't known for it but some on your listed would have/had no chance against him in his prime.

Then I would add

Gary Spaeth
Danny Harriman
Wade Crane
Jeff Carter
Nick Varner


Oh and you forgot the greatest one pocket player of all time

Efren Reyes

.....and I am sure I am missing a slew of them as well.
 
kcqbill said:
what's the score now please going into day 3
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Capture.JPG.....................
 
I agree with some of the points already made. The key factor of why Efren is so MANY games down right now, is primarily do to his poor breaking. Scott practiced the break many times before the match started to get it dialed in. Efren has tried different breaks during the match trying to figure it out and his couple best breaks were still not as good as almost all of Scott's breaks.

The tight pockets definitely are having a big factor on Efren's game. His shot making ability has definitely decreased quite a bit with age. In fact, even on 4 1/2 inch pockets I have seen him miss quite a few fairly routine shots in his other recent matches.

I really think that because Efren has played so many games of 1-pocket in his life and because it's his best game, that is is taking for granted things like practicing the break and the realization how important staying down on the shot is and his form.

Regardless of his play in this match, in my lifetime, he has been the greatest all around pool player and my personal favorite.
 
watchez said:
That's a good list Don.....I know you are a KC guy but you can give St Louis some credit

Justin Bergman
Ricky Van Uum
Gordon Guy
Dean Higgs
Cecil Tugwell (he lived here for many years)

David Matlock could play some one pocket too, although he obviously isn't known for it but some on your listed would have/had no chance against him in his prime.

Then I would add

Gary Spaeth
Danny Harriman
Wade Crane
Jeff Carter
Nick Varner


Oh and you forgot the greatest one pocket player of all time

Efren Reyes

.....and I am sure I am missing a slew of them as well.
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Thanks Watchez, how the hell could I forget Efren. LOL

-don
 
terryhanna said:
I don't think Scott is getting enough credit here he has just flat out played Efren in every aspect of the game and the score shows it.

I do agree that Efren's game is off for what ever reason he is just not right or i think the score would be much closer

.I was really hoping Efren could pull this off but i am not really not surprised Scott is winning considering their previous gambling matches .

Scott beating Efren playing even one pocket gambling is nothing new, Scott just has Efren's number when it comes to gambling the last six times they have played Scott has beaten Efren and barring some kind of miracle comeback today will make it seven times in a row.

The last time Scott and Alex Pagulayan played after 4 days of playing 8-10 hours a day Alex was up only one game and Alex is considered by many to be the best one pocket player on the planet that just shows how good Scott really is.

I think Alex might be the only guy that can beat Scott in a long high stakes set/race but it sure would be great to see them play again.
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Hey Terry..how can you say the same things I have been saying, and not get half the heat I get for saying them?..I guess you just say it better! ;)..I think Bill Incardona was ready to whip my ass, when I dared to critisize Efren's skills at one pocket..Actually, it is a testament to his all around play, that he has beaten so many good 1P player's, with his somewhat limited skills at the moving part of the game.

I too wish the match were closer, and Efren had his best game going!..But I still think the end result would be the same..As you pointed out, Scott has always outplayed Efren at 1P, and there are a few guys out there now, that can make Scott look bad at times..This IMO should make my point obvious.

I do not claim to be anywhere near Efren's skill level at pool, but I do know the game of 1P quite well!..Obviously better than those who don't see certain things, and are critical of my evaluation!..Even an average player can see, that ER's shot selection at times is sorely lacking, and even his uncanny abilities, (cueball control and shot making) cannot save him from impending disaster!

Efren Reyes..best pool player of our generation, ABSOLUTELY!..Best one pocket player ever..Sorry Billy, not by a long shot!..BTW, for those who may be interested, I have had some limited success too..When I was about 63, I easily gave Steve Cook a ball, (8/7) more than once, for a good bit of cash when he was playing his best..Many witnesses!..:cool:

PS..Against a player like Scott, one or two bad decisions per game, will usually seal your fate..Thats why the score is what it is now! :rolleyes:

deanoc said:
i stilllike efrem to win it all
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Deanoc..Please pick any number between $20.00 and $200,000.00 :D My house is paid for, but I'll hock it again to cover any bet you would like!..:thumbup2:
 
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