Fargo rant

[chefjeff]

I think the difference is the "play to win", vs "play to win by any means you can". Sandbagging (imnsho) is Paramount to cheating. Take that gambling "win at all costs" mentality and confine it to the rules and good sportsmanship and you have a winning attitude/philosophy I believe.

Thank you for the reply.

I never really had the "win at all costs" mentality, as I'm as of an honest Person as I can be. My playing partner back in the day had some of that 'win at all cost' attitude and it was my job to keep that in check so we didn't have any violence after a win. Maybe it was being partnered with him that kept me in the winning attitude? I suspect that, as I don't play with him anymore, as I got better and he didn't so he dumped me and pool, it seems.

Also, I never sandbagged on purpose. We just showed up and kicked ass...or not.




Jeff Livingston

 

[Maniac]

I get that attitude and it has its place, yet there comes a time when that attitude has to be set aside and adopt the winning one instead.
Jeff Livingston

I do not believe that attitude hang-the-9 alludes to HAS to be set aside at all, depending on the type of player involved. Although we are in the minority, some of us consider pool to nothing more than a challenging game to be played with the purpose of garnering some enjoyment from.

Myself...I do not have a competitive bone in my body. Don't care if I win or lose as long as I play somewhere near my capabilities. I don't look at a game/match of pool any differently than I would a game of Monopoly.

We are out there. We don't gamble, we don't sweat, we do not stress over the outcomes. What we do is accomplish minutes/hours of our life filled with fun and enjoyment as we play...something a LOT of players could never understand.

So, for us, nothing HAS to be set aside.

Shoot well, my friend...and enjoy! :thumbup:

Maniac

 

[drlouis]

Thank you for the reply.

I never really had the "win at all costs" mentality, as I'm as of an honest Person as I can be. My playing partner back in the day had some of that 'win at all cost' attitude and it was my job to keep that in check so we didn't have any violence after a win. Maybe it was being partnered with him that kept me in the winning attitude? I suspect that, as I don't play with him anymore, as I got better and he didn't so he dumped me and pool, it seems.

Also, I never sandbagged on purpose. We just showed up and kicked ass...or not.




Jeff Livingston

If I implied that I thought you had sandbagged, that was not my intention. But it has been a minor point throughout this thread. Personally, I HATE to lose, so I can certainly see (and even feel) the temptation to shave off corners to win, but it was my mom's attitude that put the idea deep inside that a win by cheating isn't a win so I'd rather lose than "win" and know I really didn't.

 

[logical]

Maybe a system where everyone just makes up a rating for themselves based on how good or lucky they woke up feeling that day could be implemented. I admit I haven't completely thought it through but it seems pretty bulletproof and I can't imagine anything ever going wrong under such a system.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[lorider]

I do not believe that attitude hang-the-9 alludes to HAS to be set aside at all, depending on the type of player involved. Although we are in the minority, some of us consider pool to nothing more than a challenging game to be played with the purpose of garnering some enjoyment from.

Myself...I do not have a competitive bone in my body. Don't care if I win or lose as long as I play somewhere near my capabilities. I don't look at a game/match of pool any differently than I would a game of Monopoly.

We are out there. We don't gamble, we don't sweat, we do not stress over the outcomes. What we do is accomplish minutes/hours of our life filled with fun and enjoyment as we play...something a LOT of players could never understand.

So, for us, nothing HAS to be set aside.

Shoot well, my friend...and enjoy! :thumbup:

Maniac

One of the nest posts about playing pool I have ever read on this forum. :thumbup:

 

[9BallKY]

You, as a player, have the ability to present your concerns to the people that run tournaments near you. Explain to them the benefit of Fargo. Surely there are tournaments near you. Possibly some of those are run by people with 3 digit IQ's, who can understand the benefit of Fargo. Point is, we all can make it happen, but not if we rely on someone else to do it.

KMRUNOUT

There is very few tournaments within a reasonable distance of where I live. Only one room has tournaments worth attending. There are more tournaments but most are handicapped and I don't care much for handicapped tournaments. The one room that has good tournaments the owner isn't interested in Fargo ratings. I don't know of any tournaments or leagues that report to Fargo in the entire state. I don't play league or have any interest in doing so as the closest one is 2 hrs away.

 

[chefjeff]

I do not believe that attitude hang-the-9 alludes to HAS to be set aside at all, depending on the type of player involved. Although we are in the minority, some of us consider pool to nothing more than a challenging game to be played with the purpose of garnering some enjoyment from.

Myself...I do not have a competitive bone in my body. Don't care if I win or lose as long as I play somewhere near my capabilities. I don't look at a game/match of pool any differently than I would a game of Monopoly.

We are out there. We don't gamble, we don't sweat, we do not stress over the outcomes. What we do is accomplish minutes/hours of our life filled with fun and enjoyment as we play...something a LOT of players could never understand.

So, for us, nothing HAS to be set aside.

Shoot well, my friend...and enjoy! :thumbup:

Maniac

Well put...thanks.


Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

If I implied that I thought you had sandbagged, that was not my intention. But it has been a minor point throughout this thread. Personally, I HATE to lose, so I can certainly see (and even feel) the temptation to shave off corners to win, but it was my mom's attitude that put the idea deep inside that a win by cheating isn't a win so I'd rather lose than "win" and know I really didn't.

I was commenting, too.

Thanks...My Mom agrees with your Mom.



Jeff Livingston

 

[pt109]

Maybe a system where everyone just makes up a rating for themselves based on how good or lucky they woke up feeling that day could be implemented. I admit I haven't completely thought it through but it seems pretty bulletproof and I can't imagine anything ever going wrong under such a system.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

That system has been in vogue for a very long time....
...it’s known as making a game for cash.

“I need the last ten at nine ball.”
“But there’s only nine balls!”
“How the hell am I supposed to know that? I went to school on a short bus.”

 

[hang-the-9]

I am going to use an example that hang the 9 has alluded to that makes it rough playing low handicaps in usapl. Say you are a 550 and are playing a 225. The points race in 9 ball will be you 75 and your opponent 28. Since each rack is worth 14 points that means you have to win 6 games to tour opponents 2.

Lets say tour opponent wins the lag or flip...whichever you prefer and he makes the 9 on the break. He already has half the points he needs to win the match. You win the next 6 in a row which means you won 6-1. however ....during those 6 racks your opponent managed to score 24 points.

The points total is you 84....your opponents total is 38. Your opponent wins the match due to the fact he scored 10 points over his required total and you scored 9 over.

Confusing huh ? Not really .. Unlike apa where you atop she you reach your required points you have to finish the last rack in usapl a d there have been many matches where the loser had reached his required points first in the last rack o ly to lose the match due to his opponent making the 9 .

I forgot to mention the biggest factor in the points race between apa and usapl.

In apa you can break and run 8 balls and your opponent makes the 9 and you win the rack 8-2. In usapl the score would be you 8...your opponent 14. the money ball is worth 14 points . Any other balls you made that rack is irrelevant and your opponent gets 1 point for each ball.hw made that rack.

But again....points made are irrelevant ....fargo just scores the match...you 6...your opponent 1.

The USAPL example is a bit off, if both players are on the hill, the player winning the hill hill game wins even if the other player gets to their points needed first. So if player A needs 30 and is at 29 the rack before, player B needs 60 and is at 50, if A makes the first 8 balls but misses the 9, player B makes it, B wins because he/she won the hill hill game. Now if player B was NOT on the hill and Player A made a point, then the match would be over after the rack. My area USAPL league is run with no wins on the break and called 9 ball.

One thing I do like and at the same time like about the USAPL scoring is that it forces the better players to play at least at their normal level. You can't go easy on someone because they will chip away at their points and one mistake late in the game will cost you the match. It counts points like a real match would, winning means a lot. APA game winning ball is 2 points. I could let the other guy make every game winning ball and still win if you outplay him the rack.

I don't like it because I don't that one mistake is worthy of losing a match over. I think if you beat someone 5-1 in games that would be good enough to win, instead you play someone that needs 24 or 30 points to your 50 or 60, you miss or scratch on the game winner, and they are on the hill after making one ball. In addition to that, since you need to win a bunch of games, they have several games in which to possibly make a few balls, especially in 8 ball. Normal 8 ball you can win at any point really, you may need to wait for clusters to get broken up, the opponent to do something risky in their run, then take over and win. In handicap points based 8 ball, all those balls you are letting the other player shoot in count for their win. They can win with never winning a single game.

 

[alphadog]

That system has been in vogue for a very long time....
...it’s known as making a game for cash.

“I need the last ten at nine ball.”
“But there’s only nine balls!”
“How the hell am I supposed to know that? I went to school on a short bus.”

You know the response wouldnt be "But there is only nine balls!"
Response would be "You can have the 10 freeze up a grand":grin:

 

[alstl]

Good luck being allowed to play in a tournament in AZ without an established Fargo. If it’s a chip tournament they’ll let you play with the least amount of chips, otherwise you’re probably SOL.

Interesting. A new player has to outrun the nuts. I did play briefly in the APA a few years ago but my handicap soon got too high and the team couldn't use me any more. I doubt it was enough games to get a Fargo rating.

 

[JC]

All players lose to players below their speed and win some against higher speed players so your right 200 is probably a little low to get a good average. Anyone that plays at 650 Fargo speed plays well enough with a break or two or just playing really well that day to beat almost anyone.

I would say my rating (if I had one) would be between 675-700. The guy with the 679 rating I have beat him 6 out of the last 7 times we have played. I finished 7th in the state tournament the only time I played in it and finished in the top 40 of a big tournament with a 128 player field about 15 were pro players. Not that anyone cares lol.

I played the "truck driver" from Kentucky who was supposedly just hauling around Rob Saez and Sky Woodward on his way to a long haul down at the barbox in Reno one time and got my ass handed to me. I thought holy crap can everyone from Kentucky play like a champion?

Later on when Fargo got going I checked his rating he's Robert Frost and plays at 7 hundred and something. Made me feel a little better.

JC

 

[easy-e]

Interesting. A new player has to outrun the nuts. I did play briefly in the APA a few years ago but my handicap soon got too high and the team couldn't use me any more. I doubt it was enough games to get a Fargo rating.

Most tournaments around here are capped. Lots of 595 and under, 525 and under, stuff like that. The people are very protective about their little weekly tournaments. They’d let you play in the Fargo open handicapped tournaments, but they’ll start you high just to be careful. Once you’re established you’ll be good to go.

 

[hang-the-9]

Most tournaments around here are capped. Lots of 595 and under, 525 and under, stuff like that. The people are very protective about their little weekly tournaments. They’d let you play in the Fargo open handicapped tournaments, but they’ll start you high just to be careful. Once you’re established you’ll be good to go.

In a very noobish and nitty way, this actually makes sense. When my son and I started to play regularly in a new place for us and started beating all the C and D players, in a few months none of the C and D players would play in the tournament anymore, even with handicaps. Some people don't like to feel like they suck compared to others. Better to quit or complain about "good players" than try to get better. it's not like they would need to reach Pro level, it's not hard to get to B level if you work on fundamentals and practice shots properly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... work on fundamentals and practice shots properly.

Many years ago I played in an eight ball bar league. A teammate had a great eye and could make nearly any shot but he froze up whenever confronted with a draw shot. His struggle was a sorry sight to behold. The draw problem left him in the bottom half of the team. One time I suggested that we go over to a little pool hall close by and see if he could make some progress on the draw stuff. Nope. I don't know if there was some reason behind his refusal but he was not interested in getting better.

 

[easy-e]

In a very noobish and nitty way, this actually makes sense. When my son and I started to play regularly in a new place for us and started beating all the C and D players, in a few months none of the C and D players would play in the tournament anymore, even with handicaps. Some people don't like to feel like they suck compared to others. Better to quit or complain about "good players" than try to get better. it's not like they would need to reach Pro level, it's not hard to get to B level if you work on fundamentals and practice shots properly.

I don’t blame them, it’s just odd. I totally get them not wanting a road player to swing through and rob their tournament. At the same time, the buy in is like $15. I think an unknown ought to have the chance to play. I actually moved here and had to wait until they had enough open tournaments to get established. Kinda sucked, but at least they’re consistent.

 

[9BallKY]

I played the "truck driver" from Kentucky who was supposedly just hauling around Rob Saez and Sky Woodward on his way to a long haul down at the barbox in Reno one time and got my ass handed to me. I thought holy crap can everyone from Kentucky play like a champion?

Later on when Fargo got going I checked his rating he's Robert Frost and plays at 7 hundred and something. Made me feel a little better.

JC

Robert grew up about 30 miles from where I live. I used to play him a lot before he moved to Ohio. His fargorate is 733. Also Landon Shuffet grew up about 35 miles from me. Shannon Daulton about 25 miles from me. I live in a very small town and there's 5 players here that would be over 650 if they had a rating.

 

[alphadog]

So how is this, FargoBilliards is having a thanksgiving trnmnt. 3 players under 1500?
Either its a bone for mediocre league players or sandbaggers snap it off:smile: Having the later happen would be doubly cruel, finally a trnmnt BillyJoJimBob , Bubba and cousin Lester can be competitive in:wink:

 

[hang-the-9]

So how is this, FargoBilliards is having a thanksgiving trnmnt. 3 players under 1500?
Either its a bone for mediocre league players or sandbaggers snap it off:smile: Having the later happen would be doubly cruel, finally a trnmnt BillyJoJimBob , Bubba and cousin Lester can be competitive in:wink:

I had a fun idea to slowly get rid of sandbaggers. Setup a few tournaments divided by ratings. Take the top 4 finishers and add 50 to their rating at the end of it as part of their "prize". If you are really at your rating, play another hour a week to play up to your new skill, if you are sandbagging, well now you are not.