So if I understand you correctly; you state that "the longer the follow through the longer the cue tip stays on the cue ball"????????
Please answer....SPF=randyg
Follow through pictures, thoughts, etc.
- Thread starter poohkiller
- Start date
So if I understand you correctly; you state that "the longer the follow through the longer the cue tip stays on the cue ball"????????
Please answer....SPF=randyg
What's wrong with his hand touching his chest at the end of his stroke....SPF=randyg
Depends on if he starts raising his hand upwads and inwards before or after cueball contact. Twisting motion.
Because I believe that he is mistaken about "level cue vs tip down & length of follow through".....SPF=randyg
I have a problem with all of this. Length of time in contact is not the issue. Glue a tip to the rubber end of a pencil or to a pencil for that matter and try to get the same hit as with a cue stick. I don't think it can be done.
Place a cue tip on a metal rod and try to get the same type of hit. I doubt that it can be done.
Use a true mechanical pendulum in place of a human grip and I suspect that there are things that cannot be done.
It is not so much about the length of time that a tip is in contact as the quality of the contact that is important.
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I agree.....SPF=randyg
The attempt
Doc,
I don't doubt that what you say is correct.
However, THE ATTEMPT, to lengthen the tip contact on the cue ball is very similar to THE ATTEMPT to accelerate your cue stick through the cue ball. While neither may be possible, THE ATTEMPT to do so can have positive affects on your ability to play a better game of pool.
Doc,
I don't doubt that what you say is correct.
However, THE ATTEMPT, to lengthen the tip contact on the cue ball is very similar to THE ATTEMPT to accelerate your cue stick through the cue ball. While neither may be possible, THE ATTEMPT to do so can have positive affects on your ability to play a better game of pool.
Agreed. All of my resource pages and comments deal only with typical cues and tips, not pencils and metal rods. :wink:
The problem with the pencil is: the eraser is too flexible, and the weight is much too small. The problem with the metal rod is: it is too stiff and heavy, and would have a ridiculous amount of squirt. In other words, pencils and metal rods are very different from typical pool cues.
Agreed. For example, if the "grip" of the "pendulum" (or robot) were too rigid, double hits would be likely at large tip offsets.
From a physics perspective, the quality of contact (with a typical range of real pool cues and tips, with no miscue) depends only on the cue speed, cue mass, shaft endmass (i.e., squirt), and tip offset (which accounts for cue elevation). Now the "feel," "hit," and/or "playability" of a cue (i.e., the perceived "quality of contact") is very subjective and very individualistic and depends on many things. For more info, see:
Regards,
Dave
Agreed. Sometimes it helps to think certain things, even if those things are not strictly possible. In fact, on VEPS, Tom and I provide advice like this several times; however, in my narration, I was always careful to preface the advice with "It helps to think" so I wouldn't offend the hard-core physics viewers out there. :wink:
I'm all in favor of:
If it works for you consistently, then do it (even twisting your cue :grin
.Regards,
Dave
Agreed. Sometimes it helps to think certain things, even if those things are not strictly possible. In fact, on VEPS, Tom and I provide advice like this several times; however, in my narration, I was always careful to preface the advice with "It helps to think" so I wouldn't offend the hard-core physics viewers out there. :wink:
I'm all in favor of:
If it works for you consistently, then do it (even twisting your cue :grin
Regards,
Dave
You can see another video that shows a lot of twisting by clicking here.
I was hoping Bill would be back to answer this but since he hasn't I'm going to get into the fray.
I'm sure Bill was trying to say is that longer cue tip contact is desireable and the best way to do that is with a good follow-through. Now obviously, laying down a really long follow-through that doesn't accelerate as it hits the cue ball will do absolutely nothing.
Although many folks here have suggested that you can't get much more cue tip contact no matter what you do with grip, speed, tip material, shaft stiffness or whatever. That is true, but I believe it doesn't take much to have a noticable effect. A link was posted that showed that tip cantact with a hard tip lasts about .001 sec. Now if you could increase that contact by 10%, to say .0011, do you think it would matter very much? I do.
I see Earls name mentioned a couple of times in this thread but it appears the original post regarding Earl has been deleted so I'm not sure what it's about.
I have a picture of Earl and even though he's bridging off the rail it's kind of similar. Someone thought Earl was breaking in this shot but he's not. I don't remember this particular shot but I'm pretty sure it's one of his "stroke" shots.
I have a picture of Earl and even though he's bridging off the rail it's kind of similar. Someone thought Earl was breaking in this shot but he's not. I don't remember this particular shot but I'm pretty sure it's one of his "stroke" shots.
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Here is a picture analysis that was sent to me by the Oyster (Timothy White) on Facebook. He just sent me a message offering this picture analysis and I thought that it is a cool addition to the thread and that it may generate further discussion.
Maybe the picture lies but.......you look uncomfortable...
Your always having problems with that back brother, but now I see your stance and no wonder you can't ever play for very long.
Looks plain to me like your feet are about shoulder width apart....this is your base....your a big boy, you need a bigger base....so spread those legs lol.
Being that you like to get down on the shot close footed you have to get every bit of the bend it takes for you to get down FROM YOUR BACK!!!!
With that closed in-to the cue stance(open stance would be standing closer to 90º to the cue like in snooker) you should just be able to back up your rear foot, which is then locked/straightned and then put a little bend in the front knee. This will let your hips/waist start to bend from a lower point, and from a lesser angle. Since the back leg isn't perpendicular with the ground anymore its angle of incidence equals your angle of entry to the back.
That can also help to reduce shoulder and neck pain too. Some players seem to stand too crowded with themselves IMOP. It looks to me like you have a larger share of your weight in the front foot and bridge hand, which means your standing more on one leg which puts pressure on your back muscles, along with the lead shoulder being overpressured from excess weight on the bridge hand.
If you opened up (spread feet) you could more naturally become equally balanced on not only your feet but including the bridge hand. A more equal tripod is a more stable tripod, and thats all the stance is....
You can't tell me that you were 100% solid stable shooting that hard stop shot, there's no way that you can stand with your ankles tied like that and powerstroke the ball and not have any movement in your body.
Now if thats how you must stand then so be it, but even tho you asked me/us to look at your follow through.....the FIRST thing that caught my attention was how close quartered and compact you look down on the shot...its just a pic but you look cramped and uncomfortable.
This has nothing to do with whats a "BEST" way to stand on the shot. I believe that it is dictated by someones unique build or physical needs/wants.
Looking at all the pieces and hearing what you have to say I'd be willing to be that if you tried those few little suggestions you may find that playing won't be as difficult on your body, since you will be spacing the muscular demand out in a more even and efficient manner. Keeping uneven or excess pressure off your back/neck/shoulder.
I'd rather see you feel better when you play than to just play better....if you feel better you can pratice and play more, enjoy your time at the table more.
hope your well Eric,
Keeb-
Your always having problems with that back brother, but now I see your stance and no wonder you can't ever play for very long.
Looks plain to me like your feet are about shoulder width apart....this is your base....your a big boy, you need a bigger base....so spread those legs lol.
Being that you like to get down on the shot close footed you have to get every bit of the bend it takes for you to get down FROM YOUR BACK!!!!
With that closed in-to the cue stance(open stance would be standing closer to 90º to the cue like in snooker) you should just be able to back up your rear foot, which is then locked/straightned and then put a little bend in the front knee. This will let your hips/waist start to bend from a lower point, and from a lesser angle. Since the back leg isn't perpendicular with the ground anymore its angle of incidence equals your angle of entry to the back.
That can also help to reduce shoulder and neck pain too. Some players seem to stand too crowded with themselves IMOP. It looks to me like you have a larger share of your weight in the front foot and bridge hand, which means your standing more on one leg which puts pressure on your back muscles, along with the lead shoulder being overpressured from excess weight on the bridge hand.
If you opened up (spread feet) you could more naturally become equally balanced on not only your feet but including the bridge hand. A more equal tripod is a more stable tripod, and thats all the stance is....
You can't tell me that you were 100% solid stable shooting that hard stop shot, there's no way that you can stand with your ankles tied like that and powerstroke the ball and not have any movement in your body.
Now if thats how you must stand then so be it, but even tho you asked me/us to look at your follow through.....the FIRST thing that caught my attention was how close quartered and compact you look down on the shot...its just a pic but you look cramped and uncomfortable.
This has nothing to do with whats a "BEST" way to stand on the shot. I believe that it is dictated by someones unique build or physical needs/wants.
Looking at all the pieces and hearing what you have to say I'd be willing to be that if you tried those few little suggestions you may find that playing won't be as difficult on your body, since you will be spacing the muscular demand out in a more even and efficient manner. Keeping uneven or excess pressure off your back/neck/shoulder.
I'd rather see you feel better when you play than to just play better....if you feel better you can pratice and play more, enjoy your time at the table more.
hope your well Eric,
Keeb-
Wow GG might be onto something with that wider base suggestion. i'm a small guy but i've always favored a wider stance. i bet that makes you more solid and takes some pressure off your back Eric.
Good post GG. maybe you're not just a pretty face!!!!lol
Good post GG. maybe you're not just a pretty face!!!!lol
lol thanks brother.....
Pool is the only game you will ever see anyone in stance bent over at the waist. In every other sport i can think of when you have to get low you bend a leg/legs, all the motions we learn b/c thats usually what is better mechanically and like i said you just don't see anyone bending half over doing anything else, so what makes pool players believe that doing so continuously for long periods of time could be anything but good for our physiology.
I'm 5'7 and I had back/neck/shoulder pain while I was shooting back in college. I was bending at the waist, I had my bridge arm fully extended, and I got low on the ball.
I actually hyper-extended
my elbow playing for over 12hrs like that. Good thing I was on the distance team so I was able to go to our trainers and get some rehab/ultrasound etc for it. BUT man did i get ragged! Jokes about how they didn't know pool was a contact sport lol.
Anyways ever since then I have ran into a few diff people that had similar problems and I worked with them on it and they had fantastic results....one of the guys was a very tall fella up in tulsa that worked up at the palace (forget his name) I remember how receptive he was about the idea and how much of a diff it made for him.
Just one of those things I've happened to experience and troubleshoot in a handful of players I've worked with, starting with myself.
That was the first major change to my game that I ever went through....
Its like anything else. You can throw a ball fast but if you don't do it right your going to hurt yourself. Being that we are in such a stoic position while we are playing and in stance you can create ALOT of pressure on your bodys muscles/ joints/ligaments....and you can hurt your self....just like diamonds it takes time and pressure and then POP your elbow/back/neck etc...just aint right anymore.
-Greyghost-
Pool is the only game you will ever see anyone in stance bent over at the waist. In every other sport i can think of when you have to get low you bend a leg/legs, all the motions we learn b/c thats usually what is better mechanically and like i said you just don't see anyone bending half over doing anything else, so what makes pool players believe that doing so continuously for long periods of time could be anything but good for our physiology.
I'm 5'7 and I had back/neck/shoulder pain while I was shooting back in college. I was bending at the waist, I had my bridge arm fully extended, and I got low on the ball.
I actually hyper-extended
my elbow playing for over 12hrs like that. Good thing I was on the distance team so I was able to go to our trainers and get some rehab/ultrasound etc for it. BUT man did i get ragged! Jokes about how they didn't know pool was a contact sport lol.Anyways ever since then I have ran into a few diff people that had similar problems and I worked with them on it and they had fantastic results....one of the guys was a very tall fella up in tulsa that worked up at the palace (forget his name) I remember how receptive he was about the idea and how much of a diff it made for him.
Just one of those things I've happened to experience and troubleshoot in a handful of players I've worked with, starting with myself.
That was the first major change to my game that I ever went through....
Its like anything else. You can throw a ball fast but if you don't do it right your going to hurt yourself. Being that we are in such a stoic position while we are playing and in stance you can create ALOT of pressure on your bodys muscles/ joints/ligaments....and you can hurt your self....just like diamonds it takes time and pressure and then POP your elbow/back/neck etc...just aint right anymore.
-Greyghost-
Pool is the only game you will ever see anyone in stance bent over at the waist. In every other sport i can think of when you have to get low you bend a leg/legs, all the motions we learn b/c thats usually what is better mechanically and like i said you just don't see anyone bending half over doing anything else, so what makes pool players believe that doing so continuously for long periods of time could be anything but good for our physiology.
I'm 5'7 and I had back/neck/shoulder pain while I was shooting back in college. I was bending at the waist, I had my bridge arm fully extended, and I got low on the ball.
I actually hyper-extended
Anyways ever since then I have ran into a few diff people that had similar problems and I worked with them on it and they had fantastic results....one of the guys was a very tall fella up in tulsa that worked up at the palace (forget his name) I remember how receptive he was about the idea and how much of a diff it made for him.
Just one of those things I've happened to experience and troubleshoot in a handful of players I've worked with, starting with myself.
That was the first major change to my game that I ever went through....
Its like anything else. You can throw a ball fast but if you don't do it right your going to hurt yourself. Being that we are in such a stoic position while we are playing and in stance you can create ALOT of pressure on your bodys muscles/ joints/ligaments....and you can hurt your self....just like diamonds it takes time and pressure and then POP your elbow/back/neck etc...just aint right anymore.
-Greyghost-
i used to hyperextend my elbow too. good thing i stopped doing it before it did any real damage.
on a completely unrelated note do you have or plan to have any more of that rosewood you sold not too long ago?
Why? What specific effect do you think would be added, increased or changed during the extra contact time?
"It would matter" doesn't mean anything by itself, and isn't convincing.
pj
chgo
Ha - this looks like a fun thread... so I'll give my 2 cents.
No one has a clue if Fatboy's elbow dipped before or after contact---- so no one can say for sure if his follow-through or technique is bad or not. To say his technique is a "3" based on his tip up and elbow down is just not right and it's conjecture based on the info provided. That'd be like saying Mike Massey's power draw video where he drops his elbow after contact is bad form.
The fact remains nearly all of the elite players on earth drop their elbow. I'm not knocking the instructors teaching the opposite--- a static elbow is the easiest to teach and prob provides the best results for beginners. However, it's not correct to say his elbow positioning / tip positioning is no good. The correct answer is "unknown" based on the images. A video is required to know for sure.
People often confuse (and I stress CONFUSE) length of tip contact / length of follow-through vs acceleration. We all know that tip contact is QUICK (they say 1/1000 of a second). To say what happens after doesn't matter is NOT true - not in physics, at least. For those who think a 1" follow through (limited to EXACTLY 1") is no different that a 12" follow through needs to re-think their logic. On a robotic arm, there's zero difference. With a human, if you know you're limited to a 1" follow-through and have to hit a firm shot, you WILL decelerate prior to making contact with the CB. Conversely, if you view the CB as a hologram and stroke to a point beyond it (longer follow-through), you will accelerate up to the instant of contact. The difference between the two is profound.
Back to Fatboy - the only thing other than the head coming up a hair would be his stance. It's far too open and there's no doubt that doesn't help his back. I think he'd benefit from a stance that has his shoulders square to his shot and stepping forward, versus cranking his upper torso to the side 90-degrees (the Oyster diagram is a good example for the correction).
Anything else involving his stroke is taking a "Flier" in my opinion. No one knows if his stroke is good/bad from those pictures. NO ONE. Also, Eric, if you start from the same height as your follow-through, you prob won't lift up. I think your stroke runs out of room because you're a big guy - so you lift a hair to give your stroke the room it needs to complete. You HAVE to lift up or you smash your cue there. Be a hair more upright and you'll see you likely won't lift up at all.
No one has a clue if Fatboy's elbow dipped before or after contact---- so no one can say for sure if his follow-through or technique is bad or not. To say his technique is a "3" based on his tip up and elbow down is just not right and it's conjecture based on the info provided. That'd be like saying Mike Massey's power draw video where he drops his elbow after contact is bad form.
The fact remains nearly all of the elite players on earth drop their elbow. I'm not knocking the instructors teaching the opposite--- a static elbow is the easiest to teach and prob provides the best results for beginners. However, it's not correct to say his elbow positioning / tip positioning is no good. The correct answer is "unknown" based on the images. A video is required to know for sure.
People often confuse (and I stress CONFUSE) length of tip contact / length of follow-through vs acceleration. We all know that tip contact is QUICK (they say 1/1000 of a second). To say what happens after doesn't matter is NOT true - not in physics, at least. For those who think a 1" follow through (limited to EXACTLY 1") is no different that a 12" follow through needs to re-think their logic. On a robotic arm, there's zero difference. With a human, if you know you're limited to a 1" follow-through and have to hit a firm shot, you WILL decelerate prior to making contact with the CB. Conversely, if you view the CB as a hologram and stroke to a point beyond it (longer follow-through), you will accelerate up to the instant of contact. The difference between the two is profound.
Back to Fatboy - the only thing other than the head coming up a hair would be his stance. It's far too open and there's no doubt that doesn't help his back. I think he'd benefit from a stance that has his shoulders square to his shot and stepping forward, versus cranking his upper torso to the side 90-degrees (the Oyster diagram is a good example for the correction).
Anything else involving his stroke is taking a "Flier" in my opinion. No one knows if his stroke is good/bad from those pictures. NO ONE. Also, Eric, if you start from the same height as your follow-through, you prob won't lift up. I think your stroke runs out of room because you're a big guy - so you lift a hair to give your stroke the room it needs to complete. You HAVE to lift up or you smash your cue there. Be a hair more upright and you'll see you likely won't lift up at all.
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"SPC" this is a debate that has gone on for years and years!
Randy; I've been under the weather a little so I have not had the opportunity to respond to your Q.
Without having an crescendo (increasing in speed) stroke with an extended follow-through your just waisting your time trying to apply MAXIMUM EFFECT on the cue ball. Just as in golf, you cannot decelerate through the cue ball and expect, maximum effect, alot palyers do this in an effort to try an be more accurate. It will NOT work!
Don't confuse the crescendo stroke with hitting the cue ball hard, it just means the warm-up strokes and follow-through are FASTER, the FINAL stroke has to be SHARP and CLEAN. E.G. by swinging the cue faster the semi-circular centrifical force will force the cue tip to STAY on the cue ball a fraction longer to achieve MAXIMUM EFFECT! Just imagine the cue ball is a styrofoam cue ball, what the player wants to attempt is to think of trying to do is, stick the cue-tip THROUGH the styrofoam cue ball.
I really didn't want to get into a debate with the so called, "Scientific Pool Community", I've palyed with and against the BEST players in the world, all the slow-motion cameras, scientific formulated data and calculations sometimes cannot explain such a complicated mental and physical game. These are techniques I know work thru years of evaluation and experiment. Not by computer aided formulas and data!
There's nothing really NEW in pool and billiards in the last 100 years, players do what instinctivley feels correct, some are, some are not, this IMHO is what seperates good players from GREAT players, they just KNOW!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Randy; I've been under the weather a little so I have not had the opportunity to respond to your Q.
Without having an crescendo (increasing in speed) stroke with an extended follow-through your just waisting your time trying to apply MAXIMUM EFFECT on the cue ball. Just as in golf, you cannot decelerate through the cue ball and expect, maximum effect, alot palyers do this in an effort to try an be more accurate. It will NOT work!
Don't confuse the crescendo stroke with hitting the cue ball hard, it just means the warm-up strokes and follow-through are FASTER, the FINAL stroke has to be SHARP and CLEAN. E.G. by swinging the cue faster the semi-circular centrifical force will force the cue tip to STAY on the cue ball a fraction longer to achieve MAXIMUM EFFECT! Just imagine the cue ball is a styrofoam cue ball, what the player wants to attempt is to think of trying to do is, stick the cue-tip THROUGH the styrofoam cue ball.
I really didn't want to get into a debate with the so called, "Scientific Pool Community", I've palyed with and against the BEST players in the world, all the slow-motion cameras, scientific formulated data and calculations sometimes cannot explain such a complicated mental and physical game. These are techniques I know work thru years of evaluation and experiment. Not by computer aided formulas and data!
There's nothing really NEW in pool and billiards in the last 100 years, players do what instinctivley feels correct, some are, some are not, this IMHO is what seperates good players from GREAT players, they just KNOW!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"