watchez said:
Girls Get The 7 Ball For $10,000 to $50,000
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watchez said:
I only saw one do it successfully. Lori Shampo! She was probably the best woman money player ever. Drugs did her in.
First, to answer the question of what the right game is between Allison and Reed..the answer, I'm not sure. I have heard stories from years back when Allison first came over and gambled a little and some of the spots she received. I also heard of games that Karen has played getting spots. I have not witnessed these but from what I heard they were big spots and the girls didn't win.
Everyone knows that I am all for gambling and of course, all for women reaching equality. I realize that not everyone agrees wtih gambling, but it is a part of the game. I don't judge either way what type of person someone is on whether they gamble or not. There are many great champions that don't gamble and there are many that do. Whether a players ability should be judged upon a gambling match or a tournament match, that is a good question. The two are totally different pressures. Tournaments, yes, there is luck involved sometimes and the races are shorter. Often the players are fairly equal in skill so things like luck and short races come into play in close matches. Gambling, people usually play ahead sets or very long races. Different things come into play such as stamina, attitude, the rolls equaling out more. So do I think that Thorsten, Tony, Jasmin or any of the others who have accomplished many things are lesser players that those that gamble...definitely not. That is something to perform under the pressure of only having one or two chances in a tournament opposed to flipping the coin over and over again.
Roy, I was not disrespecting Jasmin by saying she cannot win. She is an incredible player that has definitely proven that women can play. I think she is one of the few that is the link between the men and the women players. Bringing us closer to equality in a game that has been male dominant. I also agree that Jean Balukas was the same. Although I never got a chance to see her play, I have heard stories that even the most pigheaded men give her the utmost respect.
As for discussing how Allison finished well at the DCC, she did, so did Karen. Karen cashed in all three tournaments. Jeanette has also done well in all three tournaments in the past. Anna Kostanian also made it 8 rounds I believe this year. Even I made it to the top 20 of the 9ball. That tournament is a crapshoot though. You can get a juicy draw or not. It is nice to know though that even as a so-called 'underdog' it is a very short race. I think that helps to ease the minds of all competitors, male or female.
On the flip side of that, when it comes to gambling, women really don't have a chance playing even in long, drawn out races. The superior player rises to the top. That is the good thing about figuring out an equal game and adjusting as necessary.
So after all of that rambling I stick by what I said earlier. And as I do that I am not trying to disrespect any of the women. If anyone wishes that a woman could go down to MS and take him off, it's me!
Sarah
Everyone knows that I am all for gambling and of course, all for women reaching equality. I realize that not everyone agrees wtih gambling, but it is a part of the game. I don't judge either way what type of person someone is on whether they gamble or not. There are many great champions that don't gamble and there are many that do. Whether a players ability should be judged upon a gambling match or a tournament match, that is a good question. The two are totally different pressures. Tournaments, yes, there is luck involved sometimes and the races are shorter. Often the players are fairly equal in skill so things like luck and short races come into play in close matches. Gambling, people usually play ahead sets or very long races. Different things come into play such as stamina, attitude, the rolls equaling out more. So do I think that Thorsten, Tony, Jasmin or any of the others who have accomplished many things are lesser players that those that gamble...definitely not. That is something to perform under the pressure of only having one or two chances in a tournament opposed to flipping the coin over and over again.
Roy, I was not disrespecting Jasmin by saying she cannot win. She is an incredible player that has definitely proven that women can play. I think she is one of the few that is the link between the men and the women players. Bringing us closer to equality in a game that has been male dominant. I also agree that Jean Balukas was the same. Although I never got a chance to see her play, I have heard stories that even the most pigheaded men give her the utmost respect.
As for discussing how Allison finished well at the DCC, she did, so did Karen. Karen cashed in all three tournaments. Jeanette has also done well in all three tournaments in the past. Anna Kostanian also made it 8 rounds I believe this year. Even I made it to the top 20 of the 9ball. That tournament is a crapshoot though. You can get a juicy draw or not. It is nice to know though that even as a so-called 'underdog' it is a very short race. I think that helps to ease the minds of all competitors, male or female.
On the flip side of that, when it comes to gambling, women really don't have a chance playing even in long, drawn out races. The superior player rises to the top. That is the good thing about figuring out an equal game and adjusting as necessary.
So after all of that rambling I stick by what I said earlier. And as I do that I am not trying to disrespect any of the women. If anyone wishes that a woman could go down to MS and take him off, it's me!
Sarah
sarahrousey said:
Pretty good analysis here. I suggest you all read it again. The woman knows of what she speaks. By the way, Jean didn't gamble either. Except maybe on a golf course.
We seem to be gravitating, as a society, in the direction of women doing just about all the same things as men. And in many cases doing it better. It's pretty obvious that guys have screwed a few things up over the last few eons. Have you ever noticed that it is always men making war?
Now, I have nothing against the guys, just the ones that keep f'ing things up. I am a guy to, but not so happy about the way we've run things on this planet. I for one am glad that a few more women are gaining power and taking control of the reins. Although I won't be voting for Hilary soon.
So what has this to do with pool. I'm not sure. Pool, like many sports, is a highly competitive testosterone filled game. But pool has a great deal of finesse to it, more like golf. Can a woman compete on equal terms with a man at pool? ABSOLUTELY! There is no mental or physical reason why not.
Karen and a few other women have already shown that they can compete on equal terms in the tournament arena. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a gal come along (just like Shane did) and upset the apple cart. Somewhere on this tiny planet, there may be a young gal learning to play pool for money and liking it. She may emerge from the crucible of the Philippines, the perfect training ground to be a money player.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
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The overall discussion of this thread is like
BPG24 said:
You really have no clue how many people you offended with your "downs syndrome" comment?
....although, I could have found other tidbits for both of you that you both know damned well are outside the rules.
Your comments pale all the others though.
You should be ashamed of the jokes you made at a lot of other peoples very real struggles in dealing with downs syndrome, but to you, its just another way to make a cheap shot in a petty argument.
jay helfert said:
While it's usually the men making the war, we shouldn't forget that women sometimes play a decisive role in getting the men to take up arms.
In Richard Weaver's doctoral dissertation, at the University of Chicago, later published as Southern Tradition at Bay, one learns that many a southern belle would not accept a proposal to marry unless her suitor would first "go out an' kill me a Yankee." One of Weaver's contentions was that southern society was undergoing an assault from northern industrialism, and was leading to a diminution of the class distinctions in society, with southern women being on the losing side of that battle... So while the women weren't making war, they just might have been a major factor in the war.
Flex
BPG24
Banned
Mr. Wilson said:
Sounds like you need to reread my post. I didn't make a down syndrome comment. I asked him if he had down syndrome. You are more than welcome to tell me what a more PC way to ask would have been because no one else has suggested anything. It was a legitimate question and it is obvious that you took it in a way that i did not mean it.
BPG24 said:
While you may not have intended to be offensive, I think the way your post reads is offensive.
Let's see if you catch my reasoning.
Here are some questions that sound reasonable, normal, perhaps innocent:
Do you have AIDS?
Do you have herpes?
Do you have hydrocephalus (water on the brain)?
Do you have or have you had hepatitis?
While these can be legitimate questions, in the context of a disagreement on an online forum regarding other topics, questions such as these, and many others, are completely out of place, and clearly offensive.
Capiche?
Flex
sarahrousey said:
Outstanding post Sarah. One thing I think we should all pay attention to is your comment re: the 7 ball spot. You were asked if that was enough and your response was that you were not sure. If anyone whould know, it would be you and given that you.
But many have offered the view that karen/alli would be robbed with that spot.
I PARTIALLY disagree with you re: your comment that in long sets, the better player rises to the top. Generally, over long periods of time and MANY sessions, yes, the better player will emerge.
But, in any given session...no matter how long...the winner cannot be crowned the better player. That is especially true with winner breaks ahead sets which are often the gambling format.
As you know, when two strong players are engaged, either one who gets to 4 ahead is a threat to put on a six pack for the win while the other player remains in his or her seat.
You have seen and played in VASTLY more gambling matches than I have but in my experience, I would say that at least half of the ahead sets I've seen were won with packs and not grinding.
That is one of the reasons that I don't stake much anymore (as you may recall I used to stake Bobby Pickle a lot and am WAY ahead).
I don't gamble much anymore because 10 ahead/winner breaks isn't "9 Ball" IMHO it's "Who Catches a Gear First." For that reason, the winner breaks format is fundamentally flawed which is why that structure doesn't exist in any major sport.
And I was pleased that you noted that Alli's early forays into gambling took place VERY early in her 9 Ball career. If I hear one more time about Cliff "robber her with a big spot" I think I'll be ill. She had been in this country for only a few years when that match went down and had only been playing 9 ball for that brief period of time.
Finally, contratulations to you for joining Alli, karen, anna, and kim shaw for doing so well at the DCC. Many here were shouting that none of you would finish in the money let along finish top 20 but at least 4 women did just that!
Yes, the races are short and the draw means a lot but alli beat two champions and karen faced some very tough players if I recall correctly. 4 women finishing top 20 was not a fluke. Congratulations!
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
IMHO, yes without a doubt gambling is the best way of finding out who's the best.
Ryan
Flex said:
That is preposterous and merely the entirely undocumented ranting of a notorious anti-feminist and stone-heading right winger who believed that
"a misuse of language led to social corruption led him to criticize jazz as a medium that promoted "barbaric impulses" because he perceived it as lacking form and rules."
"Weaver's ideal society was that of the European Middle Ages, when the Roman Catholic Church gave to all an accurate picture of reality and truth"
"He argued that social, gender, and age-related equality actually undermined stability and order. Believing in "natural social groupings" (Young 112), he claimed that it should be possible to sort people into suitable categories without the envy of equality. Using the hierarchical structure of a family as an example, he pointed out that family members accept various duties grounded in "sentiment" and "fraternity," not equality and rights (Young 113). Continuing in this direction, he claimed not to understand the feminist movement, which led women to abandon their stronger connection to nature and intuition for a superficial political and economic equality with men "
In FACT, the Civil War was fought on ENTIRELY economic grounds...in the sense that the south painted itself into a corner by basing its entire economic survival on slave labor...and women at that time were ENTIRELY MARGINALIZED on the subject of economics and business. Therefore, they had NOTHING to do with the outbreak of war.
In fact, there were no "yankees to kill" until AFTER the war began.
Weaver was HIGHLY controversial even in his day and has few supporters today that are not on the extreme edge of sociological thought.
Certainly, his core values..that age and gender should be UNEQUAL characteristics is fundamentaly shameful.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun...when asked about the 7ball spot I said it wasn't enough, not nearly enough. I'm not sure what the proper spot is but it is way more than the 7ball. As others have said, the break needs to be included in that and probably having someone else break. You are right about Allison gambling years and years ago and sure I heard the story about Cliff and Larry Nevel and the list goes on. Sure Karen has gambled with people more recently than when she first came over and gotten a decent amount of weight too. Jeanette just played a few years back against John Hagar....so we aren't only talking about years and years ago. Alot of the girls that have been willing to gamble have taken big spots.
As for your other comments, I know you are going to argue to the death on everything and no one is going to be right. You can say that ahead sets are about catching a gear, sure you are right sometimes. I've been witness to and bet on some real grind sessions though...many of them. I'm not saying you don't have experience, obviously you do backing Bobby. I'm assuming alot of those games were on the bar box. There I will concede you are right, it is about hitting a gear, even on the lower level of play.
Oh and you are right, I am joining the other girls, but actually they are joining myself and Jeanette seeing that we were the first ones to do that well in the tournament. Go figure...someone beat Allison to something. And yes, I know you are now going to argue the tough draw, and all of that. Should we name all of the times someone has beaten a tough player/champion in a short race? I have a pretty long list, they are accomplishments indeed...but everyone is capable of putting a few racks together, playing the match of their life, rising to the ocassion.
So as Derek said before, in a picture...we are beating a dead horse here.
As for your other comments, I know you are going to argue to the death on everything and no one is going to be right. You can say that ahead sets are about catching a gear, sure you are right sometimes. I've been witness to and bet on some real grind sessions though...many of them. I'm not saying you don't have experience, obviously you do backing Bobby. I'm assuming alot of those games were on the bar box. There I will concede you are right, it is about hitting a gear, even on the lower level of play.
Oh and you are right, I am joining the other girls, but actually they are joining myself and Jeanette seeing that we were the first ones to do that well in the tournament. Go figure...someone beat Allison to something. And yes, I know you are now going to argue the tough draw, and all of that. Should we name all of the times someone has beaten a tough player/champion in a short race? I have a pretty long list, they are accomplishments indeed...but everyone is capable of putting a few racks together, playing the match of their life, rising to the ocassion.
So as Derek said before, in a picture...we are beating a dead horse here.
InTheCloudzzz said:
Some things are opinions. This is fact. Tournaments in no way show who is the best player. Tournament sets are too short to ensure that the best player is the winner.
Even lengthy heads-up play without $$$ on the line would not sway my opinion. $$$ guarantees that each player will make a genuine effort to win and feel the pressure of losing.
I am a horrible player and have a shot at winning any event that the race is short enough. Long gambling sessions are the best way to determine the better player. The closer the two are in skill the longer the matches should be.
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Wait a second. Wait a second. The guy that we all have had to listen to states:
My point is that if av84fun is comparing him to Sarah and the difference is VASTLY then av84fun background/knowledge/expertise/authority/belonging on this subject is a joke.
Also, this quote
Yes gambling is the best qualifier on who the better player is. (Also, the original subject of this thread) It encompasses everything. Ability, heart, stamina. No alternating breaks. No short races. No sitting around getting out of stroke waiting to play your next match. No TV tables that play easy (ie DCC) compared to other equipment.
AV84fun stated that he is WAY ahead staking Bobby Pickle - take $10K of that way ahead $$$, take Allison & her top 20 finish at the DCC with wins over Charlie & whoever else, and go to Alabama & play Reid some with the 7. What could be a better offer? All you do is give examples of how you are tired of hearing that Allison got drilled by Cliff - you want to put that story to bed - get some of Reid with the 7. That will shut everyone up.
After you win that match, stake Jasmine against say Danny H. playing a race to 500 straight pool. Tell her that she can bring her membership card to the World Championship team or whatever she qualified for. Tell her it is not gambling, it is a two man tournament with $10,000 entry fee.
No offense meant to Sarah & I hate to continue to drag her into this but--if Sarah Rousey, a female age 24?, has seen & played in VASTLY more gambling matches than you, how on Earth can you speak with any expertise on this subject - or at least continue to act like you do. Again, no offense Sarah, but how many times in the last year have you gambled at pool? Sarah is a gambler but she is no, say, Chris Bartrum. Remember, you have gambled VASTLY more in your life than this av84fun. Yes, Sarah does gamble & more than most females but being a female I bet it is hard for her to get action most of the time. I don't remember hearing her playing anyone at say, this years DCC.av84fun said:
My point is that if av84fun is comparing him to Sarah and the difference is VASTLY then av84fun background/knowledge/expertise/authority/belonging on this subject is a joke.
Also, this quote
is the winner of post 'void of any thought' of the year. You know how you can tell if the better player rises to the top, since you think that there is never an end even if they played 10 sets? If the loser gets out of his chair & says "Tails" to play another set. If the loser stays in his chair, he is the lesser player.av84fun said:
Yes gambling is the best qualifier on who the better player is. (Also, the original subject of this thread) It encompasses everything. Ability, heart, stamina. No alternating breaks. No short races. No sitting around getting out of stroke waiting to play your next match. No TV tables that play easy (ie DCC) compared to other equipment.
AV84fun stated that he is WAY ahead staking Bobby Pickle - take $10K of that way ahead $$$, take Allison & her top 20 finish at the DCC with wins over Charlie & whoever else, and go to Alabama & play Reid some with the 7. What could be a better offer? All you do is give examples of how you are tired of hearing that Allison got drilled by Cliff - you want to put that story to bed - get some of Reid with the 7. That will shut everyone up.
After you win that match, stake Jasmine against say Danny H. playing a race to 500 straight pool. Tell her that she can bring her membership card to the World Championship team or whatever she qualified for. Tell her it is not gambling, it is a two man tournament with $10,000 entry fee.
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You are right watchez, I should have noticed that. I haven't gambled that much in the past year since I got a real job. I have more experience traveling with a couple good players over the past few years and being part of that action. I am more experienced there than I am in big gambling matches. He should be more experienced since he has probably had alot more money in play on the stakehorse side. This year in Louisville I played Monica and a couple others...nothing major to talk about like years before. And thanks for giving me a year off my age! And you are right, I wish that I had the ability, gamble, heart of someone like Chris Bartram...I think alot of people do. I can say that traveling with him has helped me learn alot about the game. He is definitely someone that I look up to.
sarah
sarah
....to be clear, when I referred to Chris Bartrum, it was meant as to compare the amount of time in his life he has devoted to gambling - not the measure of his ability, heart, gamble. It was no way meant to say you don't have that. You know this.
On a scale of VASTLY seen or played in gambling efforts due to age & experience let us rank-
Chris Bartrum a TEN
Sarah Rousey a FIVE
AV84FUN a ZERO.
On a scale of VASTLY seen or played in gambling efforts due to age & experience let us rank-
Chris Bartrum a TEN
Sarah Rousey a FIVE
AV84FUN a ZERO.
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