Taking the "high Road" may lead to Poverty Point.
Issues with Jim Lee, Part 2.
- Thread starter XxMerlinxX
- Start date
Taking the "high Road" may lead to Poverty Point.
Terrific post Dickie. Your business ethincs are top notch, not to mention the first rate cues you build.
Ian
C'mon you know that's unreasonable. I am a project manager for my job. I approach ordering a cue the same way I would building a Sizing Tower at an Ag Facility. In other words, maybe we should have a project schedule. A customer should come up with the specs for his cue and then get bids from several makers right? Then a cuemaker sends them a quotation for pricing and schedule requirements...after this is done the customer should award said contract correct? Then you guessed it, these cuemakers would be in deep doo doo for not meeting milestone dates and showing adequate progress. It's also grounds to penalize them aka pay them less because they could not deliver what they contractually agreed too. It also gives grounds for terminating a contract AND getting a refund on all moneys paid out already.
All I am saying is some out there are smarter than the average bear. Getting a cue should be a simple process. You call, talk about it, they build it, you pay them, then you play.
Now if you think I should have to pay for every phone call I make to you to check to see where you are at with my cue a bit of self reflection is in order. Just think if every month or so you sent out a 2 line email that would take 30 seconds to do with what you have done. That would save you lots of time in phone calls. Also come on now, it takes seconds to take a picture and a minute to post it, there's no labor in that.
It cracks me up when every cuemaker or casemaker that frequents this site is in a rush to post some fancy case or cue they finished in order to stroke their own ego. Yet a customer who's paying good money gets grief for wanting a photo every now and then to prove you are as far as you say you are with the cue. Pretty damn funny if you ask me.
EXACTLY!!
Pad all those phone calls and "wasted" time into your original bid price, just like every other business does.
I'd like to address some points you've made and I'd like to make some of my own. I underlined some of the thoughts in your post that I thought were important to point out. While you've made it clear that you're only trying to provide another point of view, what you've also said could be construed as you basically calling me a liar. I don't know if you simply skimmed over the original post or not but I was very detailed about everything, right down to the dates of the messages, and that's because I still have all of the messages saved. Obviously I can't record telephone conversations legally, so I guess that part is going to have to be believed on faith. I'm not out to ruin anyone, I've given Jim plenty of time and opportunities to make this right, and I've hardly gone through any extra to ruin him.
I originally asked Jim for an ETA. I never said a firm due date, I specifically said ETA because that's what I was looking for, an Estimated Time of Arrival. He himself said 8 months or a bit earlier, and while I wasn't pleased with that answer, I accepted it. But 8 months go by and NOTHING new has been completed? How is that at all acceptable?
Jim also agreed to the refund on the 18th of January. My last conversation with him was March 8th, the same day I posted up the thread. That's nearly two months that I gave him to get the refund back to me, and when I contacted him about it, it was like he didn't have any idea what I was talking about. When I tell him that I'm tired of being jerked around and that I'll post on the board seeking a resolution, his response is to threaten me with holding my deposit hostage.
So yes, I posted up on the board seeking a resolution. What other option did I have? Should I have just let him keep the money? And I hardly see it as trying to ruin his reputation. He's the one who hasn't delivered on anything. He's the one who threatened to keep my deposit if I went public. If his reputation is now ruined it's because of his own actions, not mine.
Edit - I forgot to address why I made this second thread. I think this thread needs to stick around so that when someone searches for Jim's name, they may find it. I don't think any one situation is enough to ruin anyone, but I think someone could still use it to make a decision on which cuemaker to settle with. I also wanted to make it public that Smokey was true to his word and I thought that his actions were phenomenal, regardless of the argument he got into in the other thread.
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Because the first thread got pulled!!!! Probably due to moronic behavior and zillion posts from same posters who have no dog is the fight derailed the thread over the edge.
I hope this thread doesn't head toward the same cliff.
I think hangemhigh summarized the issue (as we know) pretty nicely.
you do pay it
Mike,
It will never happen but charging each customer for what they get is a lot more reasonable than charging every customer more for what only some get. That is what happens to your customers and mine now.
You and every other customer do pay for all of the "freebies" just like all of the things you do bidding a job and getting it. Nothing is free. A little two man company easily underbid the company I worked for on some projects. They didn't have engineers, sales rep's, office staff and building, warehouse, trucks, equipment, the list goes on and on as you know. When my company bid a job the customer was paying for all of the things listed above and more. Nothing is free, just because someone doesn't see the cost billed in black and white doesn't mean it isn't there.
You say "it takes seconds to take a picture and a minute to post it, there's no labor in that." Describe the project you are working on now and the state of progress and I'll request a few pictures. Then tell me how long it really took to provide the pictures, from the time you stopped what else you were doing on the job site until you got back to work. Since it only takes a minute or two no labor involved go ahead and do this ten times during a day, starting and stopping normal activities with at least thirty minutes between each picture and then tell me how much real time you lost taking pictures and sending them to me. What else did you get accomplished that day? Different story when we are talking about your time isn't it?
I have ran a few largish projects myself, some multi-million dollar projects.The companies I worked for had both cost plus and hard money projects. I almost always handled hard money projects because I delivered them ahead of schedule and under the cost estimates. I didn't do that by talking on the phone or taking pictures when there was work to be done.
I don't support the cue makers that routinely don't deliver on time or the quality expected but I don't support customers with ridiculous demands either. I once had a customer calling for hourly reports on a one day job with the calls starting thirty minutes after I started the job. After the third phone call in less than two hours I gave them two time estimates, the one day I told them to begin with if they didn't make another phone call, two weeks if he made one more phone call!
Hu
Mike,
It will never happen but charging each customer for what they get is a lot more reasonable than charging every customer more for what only some get. That is what happens to your customers and mine now.
You and every other customer do pay for all of the "freebies" just like all of the things you do bidding a job and getting it. Nothing is free. A little two man company easily underbid the company I worked for on some projects. They didn't have engineers, sales rep's, office staff and building, warehouse, trucks, equipment, the list goes on and on as you know. When my company bid a job the customer was paying for all of the things listed above and more. Nothing is free, just because someone doesn't see the cost billed in black and white doesn't mean it isn't there.
You say "it takes seconds to take a picture and a minute to post it, there's no labor in that." Describe the project you are working on now and the state of progress and I'll request a few pictures. Then tell me how long it really took to provide the pictures, from the time you stopped what else you were doing on the job site until you got back to work. Since it only takes a minute or two no labor involved go ahead and do this ten times during a day, starting and stopping normal activities with at least thirty minutes between each picture and then tell me how much real time you lost taking pictures and sending them to me. What else did you get accomplished that day? Different story when we are talking about your time isn't it?
I have ran a few largish projects myself, some multi-million dollar projects.The companies I worked for had both cost plus and hard money projects. I almost always handled hard money projects because I delivered them ahead of schedule and under the cost estimates. I didn't do that by talking on the phone or taking pictures when there was work to be done.
I don't support the cue makers that routinely don't deliver on time or the quality expected but I don't support customers with ridiculous demands either. I once had a customer calling for hourly reports on a one day job with the calls starting thirty minutes after I started the job. After the third phone call in less than two hours I gave them two time estimates, the one day I told them to begin with if they didn't make another phone call, two weeks if he made one more phone call!
Hu
hi ho hi ho , it's off to po i go....whistleF,whistleU,whistleF,whistleU, hi ho hi ho!
One's reputation still is, and probably always will be the most valued attribute of a human being. There are many great members of this forum who are respected (deservedly so) for saying what they mean, and doing what they say. Those who don't are eventually outed and relegated to "village idiot" status :grin-square:
"Taking the high road" is when one avoids joining in with negative comments and mudslinging, especially when it is unnecessary. That isn't the case here. In this case Jim's silence just comes across as "I know I made promises and broke them, but whatever, I don't care anymore, please just go away...". I just can't see any upside to Jim's silence here.
I don't mind at all that this thread became public. It gives me (and others) a chance to see how one of the members does business when there is a complaint. Had Jim offered a reasonable rebuttal, perhaps his reputation would be saved or even enhanced. That certainly wasn't the case here.
I spend thousands of dollars on AZ members every year and I prefer to put it in the hands of those who keep their word (and withhold it from those who don't). I don't know how much of a difference I can make as one customer, but it's all I can do and so I do it.
I would absolutely love to give you that info if it was not proprietary but make no mistake I am the customer and my contractors are the vendors. I will tell you this much, never have I asked a question of any of my contractors that was not answered in a timely fashion. You know why? If they didn't answer they already know they won't be getting a job from me again. They like money so they comply with customer requests.
I also am not unreasonable, if I asked you for some updates when you get things done every couple of months, I'm not watching the clock. All I expect is that you take the time to make me feel good as your customer. I don't want to feel like I am gambling by selecting a cuemaker to do work for me. I also do not feel like that makes me their boss. Hu I am a very good businessman and I fully understand the give and take involved in all transactions. If I were to say,"Hu how's the cue coming along shoot me a pic with some progress when you get a chance" I would expect a quick one liner of an email, maybe just one that said No Problem. Then you would be able to provide this pic when the opportunity presented itself.
I almost feel like you are trying to justify the fact this guy has clear issues with workload management. In the real world people don't jump right away most of the time but their is a such thing as professional courtesy. When my schedule gets hectic guess what? I set aside time to do each of my tasks. Whether that is email, site visits, walkthroughs, procurement, whatever it is...I plan my days out. If you have a request made, put it in the queue and respond in a timely fashion. If someone needs me to get them a copy of business ettiquette for dummies I sure can provide that. I had to read that for a graduate course and to this day it's one of the best reads I've had.
The customer is not always right, but part of your job is to make them feel like they are. People who march to a different beat are not the same as those who simply march to their own beat. This makes sense to me and I'm sure it does to you as well.
In a perfect world everything would be charged as time and materials and we would all save a lot of money on everything. You know like I do though that as a society we are not honest enough for that. Frankly, TRUST is not an operative word in business, that's a good word for relationships. I focus on RESULTS, Jim Lee just didn't produce in this instance.
Fvck me ... I'm being moronic with my zillioneth post on the thread but I agree with you.
I can't stand those "we're taking food away from their family" type of argument when they choose to do business here. Gotta take good with the bad, ... and history have shown that some cue maker(s) survive even zillion complaint posts/threads on the board (may have to add case maker to the list in future). Generally, given both side of the story (and all twists along the way) when the dust settles, we can usually figure out if a customer or cue maker who's being unreasonable ..
Hangemhigh, this is For U ... :grin:
you can take pictures and email 'em on your spare time. hell you could do it as you get ready for bed. it's that easy
i doubt merlin was calling every day for info. he just wanted to make sure his cash was actually going toward his cue
I suspect we do business in much the same way
Mike,
Your post I'm replying to now is quite a bit more reasonable than pictures aren't any big deal and they should be supplied on demand. I suspect we do business in the same way, I don't make unrealistic demands and I don't choose to do business with those that do. I'm not standing up for the cue builder in this thread in the least, I don't know him. However reading this thread as usual I see people who think that everything should be one-sided, cater to the customer regardless of who is right, and I see people who have decided the cue builder is totally at fault with no information from his direction.
If the story is anything like presented here the cue builder has not performed well. However, there is the issue of when the customer actually finalized the design which we don't know and although it doesn't absolve him of responsibility there is the question of if the cue builder has been ill for several months as was mentioned in the old thread that was deleted. That might not justify the failure to return the deposit but in the real world if might explain why the delay. I shut down a business overnight due to an illness of my own. I owed one supplier thousands for six months due to going from a substantial cash flow to zero overnight.
I'll be getting my one man shop open again in the next month or so. The computer in the shop isn't hooked to the internet and I'm not answering the phone while I'm working. I'll respond to phone calls that I think need brief responses after eating lunch and I'll respond to others that evening or the next morning. I might set up to take photographs once a week, hard to say. I don't do snapshots. Also I'm not sure how much value it will be if I send somebody an image of some wood wrapped in wax paper and surgical rubber and tell them this is their cue. Sometimes there is something to see when a customer wants pictures, sometimes there isn't.
Hu
Mike,
Your post I'm replying to now is quite a bit more reasonable than pictures aren't any big deal and they should be supplied on demand. I suspect we do business in the same way, I don't make unrealistic demands and I don't choose to do business with those that do. I'm not standing up for the cue builder in this thread in the least, I don't know him. However reading this thread as usual I see people who think that everything should be one-sided, cater to the customer regardless of who is right, and I see people who have decided the cue builder is totally at fault with no information from his direction.
If the story is anything like presented here the cue builder has not performed well. However, there is the issue of when the customer actually finalized the design which we don't know and although it doesn't absolve him of responsibility there is the question of if the cue builder has been ill for several months as was mentioned in the old thread that was deleted. That might not justify the failure to return the deposit but in the real world if might explain why the delay. I shut down a business overnight due to an illness of my own. I owed one supplier thousands for six months due to going from a substantial cash flow to zero overnight.
I'll be getting my one man shop open again in the next month or so. The computer in the shop isn't hooked to the internet and I'm not answering the phone while I'm working. I'll respond to phone calls that I think need brief responses after eating lunch and I'll respond to others that evening or the next morning. I might set up to take photographs once a week, hard to say. I don't do snapshots. Also I'm not sure how much value it will be if I send somebody an image of some wood wrapped in wax paper and surgical rubber and tell them this is their cue. Sometimes there is something to see when a customer wants pictures, sometimes there isn't.
Hu
So your saying your not gonna take pictures of my cue during each minute of the build? Well what the hell....I want my Wheatiebucks Coupon that you said you would Honor back :grin:
Exactly, I agree with you there. I know as a guy paying for a service I want to be pleasant to deal with so I get the most out of my money. I also know that a vender often depends on the repeat business in order to sustain itself over a long period of time. I work with guys that can not even get certain vendors on the phone anymore because they burned those bridges. I also get emails and calls from vendors who have dropped the ball to tell me they can do better and would like another shot.
End of the day it is all relative. It's a two way street and hopefully everyone on both ends is learning a little something from all of this. As a buyer you should know what you want, how else can you expect to be happy with the end result? As a vendor you should be honest about your capability and services offered, otherwise people will expect you run a 40 person shop with a personal concierge service. Being up front and honest in the beginning often will dictate how the story ends.
So next time Jim Lee gets business I really hope he is prepared to follow through BEFORE he tells a customer anything. It does sound like the whole mess could have been handled better from the beginning but ultimately Jim Lee promised a refund and did not deliver on it. Shame on him!
I don't take snapshots
I don't take snapshots. If I take pictures I set up lighting and arrange what I want to shoot. Then I capture images in RAW using a DSLR. Next I process them in Photoshop CS adjusting a dozen things and cropping/sizing appropriately. Then I e-mail them. If I don't have time to take and process sharp clean photographs that illustrate what I want to illustrate properly I don't have time to take pictures.
If I have somebody's cash and they don't trust me to be using it appropriately it is time to send their cash back, I'm not taking pictures to reassure them and they aren't getting anything I make from me. I have learned that customers that are headaches are long term headaches, much smarter to get rid of them. They will find something to knock, real or imaginary. I have dealt with the public most of the time since 1968. You learn it is more beneficial to not do business with some people after that long.
Hu
I don't take snapshots. If I take pictures I set up lighting and arrange what I want to shoot. Then I capture images in RAW using a DSLR. Next I process them in Photoshop CS adjusting a dozen things and cropping/sizing appropriately. Then I e-mail them. If I don't have time to take and process sharp clean photographs that illustrate what I want to illustrate properly I don't have time to take pictures.
If I have somebody's cash and they don't trust me to be using it appropriately it is time to send their cash back, I'm not taking pictures to reassure them and they aren't getting anything I make from me. I have learned that customers that are headaches are long term headaches, much smarter to get rid of them. They will find something to knock, real or imaginary. I have dealt with the public most of the time since 1968. You learn it is more beneficial to not do business with some people after that long.
Hu