Can call me out all you want. I'm not playing or backing.
JA vs MD push out after the break match.
- Thread starter bfdlad
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Can call me out all you want. I'm not playing or backing.
cleary,stop it buddy just stop
when all of the naysayers here win as much money,sets or matches as johnny has in these 2 games you can say something.
johnny is a little older and doesnt run 6 and 7 racks every session
you can bet though he plays gooood all the time
thats the point
cj you should know better than to get into it with this crew
when all of the naysayers here win as much money,sets or matches as johnny has in these 2 games you can say something.
johnny is a little older and doesnt run 6 and 7 racks every session
you can bet though he plays gooood all the time
thats the point
cj you should know better than to get into it with this crew
Who in the world came up with these rules?
Yeah, I have no idea who that guy is, but the point was about making the game of 9 ball or 10 ball where it's not just a rack running contest. Johnny didn't say he wanted to change the rules because it would favor him as much as it would make the game more interesting. I happen to agree with that.
The major change that should be made in professional pool is a referee doing all the racking. This was normal back when pool was doing really good and now it's left up to the players?
Racking your own balls is like pitching to yourself and hitting the ball out of the park every time. Or serving to yourself playing tennis, and hitting winners every time. Who in the world came up with these rules?
Yeah, I have no idea who that guy is, but the point was about making the game of 9 ball or 10 ball where it's not just a rack running contest. Johnny didn't say he wanted to change the rules because it would favor him as much as it would make the game more interesting. I happen to agree with that.
The major change that should be made in professional pool is a referee doing all the racking. This was normal back when pool was doing really good and now it's left up to the players?
Racking your own balls is like pitching to yourself and hitting the ball out of the park every time. Or serving to yourself playing tennis, and hitting winners every time. Who in the world came up with these rules?
I have read a lot of the threads on changing the rules - 2 shot roll out. - push after the break, etc.
And I have read where the break is becoming 'too big' of a factor.
I don't buy it.
Some people have always had a good break and that is their advantage.
If you have a weak break - go practice.
I know SVB worked with Charlie Bonds 'BreakRak' for a long time.
See what practice will do.
Remember when Tiger was out driving all the other pros by a ton? Not any more - they went out and practiced.
If you have a superstar, they create a gap between them and the field. But the field will close the gap - because they will learn from the superstar.
Don't punish a guy from practicing his break for 100's of hours. Just go do the same.
And that is my opinion - LOL.
Mark Griffin
And I have read where the break is becoming 'too big' of a factor.
I don't buy it.
Some people have always had a good break and that is their advantage.
If you have a weak break - go practice.
I know SVB worked with Charlie Bonds 'BreakRak' for a long time.
See what practice will do.
Remember when Tiger was out driving all the other pros by a ton? Not any more - they went out and practiced.
If you have a superstar, they create a gap between them and the field. But the field will close the gap - because they will learn from the superstar.
Don't punish a guy from practicing his break for 100's of hours. Just go do the same.
And that is my opinion - LOL.
Mark Griffin
for league pool i agree with you, for pro level pool i respectfully disagree. I dont think roll out 9B is the game for weaker players, for the best players i feel its the best game. IMO there is no "Perfect" cover all set of rules.
and yes SVB has paid his dues with the break-rack(worth its weight in gold for shane-litterly)
matching up
Two points- one on the offer, one on the rule.
As for the offer, I took it to mean that Archer was offering a SPOT to Mike D. In other words, Mike complained about losing due to the break so he offered this to Mike as a way to play a more fair game. Not because he thought HE needed an edge.
If I'm wrong and he really wants to play this way, it was also a way of getting the response that he got- "I'll play you even all day standard rules for $". Great. Chips please. If Archer had offered to play even he might not have gotten played, as it is he's got a fish on the line.
Them's my thoughts there.
As for changing the game, I absolutely agree that athletes should practice. The question is at what point is it a different game than it used to be? What I mean is, is the break a bigger edge now than it was 20 years ago? The answer is yes.
CJ is right on the money. When I started playing in the mid 90s we didn't have magic racks, etc. Even the best breakers in the world were only a slight favorite to make a ball come up with a shot, and the power necessary made scratching a serious factor. The new equipment has made the break a larger part of the game then ever before. Bottom line, we're not talking about reducing the role of a skill- the break. We're talking about ensuring the role of other skills- game management.
BTW CJ, I am a good friend of Mr. Jimmy Wetch's up here in MN. I've also been a fan of yours since I saw your Mizerak match when I was 16, I watched it so many times I could mute the video and say the commentary. Thank you for what you do for the game. Your passion gives me hope for a future, I think you may be the one to lead the way. Until then, do me a favor. Give us a road story with you vs. Jimmy. I've heard his side and it sounds like you both have a lot of mutual respect. Them were some battles!
Two points- one on the offer, one on the rule.
As for the offer, I took it to mean that Archer was offering a SPOT to Mike D. In other words, Mike complained about losing due to the break so he offered this to Mike as a way to play a more fair game. Not because he thought HE needed an edge.
If I'm wrong and he really wants to play this way, it was also a way of getting the response that he got- "I'll play you even all day standard rules for $". Great. Chips please. If Archer had offered to play even he might not have gotten played, as it is he's got a fish on the line.
Them's my thoughts there.
As for changing the game, I absolutely agree that athletes should practice. The question is at what point is it a different game than it used to be? What I mean is, is the break a bigger edge now than it was 20 years ago? The answer is yes.
CJ is right on the money. When I started playing in the mid 90s we didn't have magic racks, etc. Even the best breakers in the world were only a slight favorite to make a ball come up with a shot, and the power necessary made scratching a serious factor. The new equipment has made the break a larger part of the game then ever before. Bottom line, we're not talking about reducing the role of a skill- the break. We're talking about ensuring the role of other skills- game management.
BTW CJ, I am a good friend of Mr. Jimmy Wetch's up here in MN. I've also been a fan of yours since I saw your Mizerak match when I was 16, I watched it so many times I could mute the video and say the commentary. Thank you for what you do for the game. Your passion gives me hope for a future, I think you may be the one to lead the way. Until then, do me a favor. Give us a road story with you vs. Jimmy. I've heard his side and it sounds like you both have a lot of mutual respect. Them were some battles!
a bad joke to Mosconi, Sigel, Hall and Greenleaf to rack their own balls in a match.
I agree with someone getting rewarded for hard work and Shane has certainly done that and more. What I don't understand is the racking part of the equation. It would have been a bad joke to Mosconi, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak, Hopkins, and Greenleaf to rack their own balls in a match.
Why don't they have a neutral Referee, and why isn't this the normal way to play a match of any significance? I know there's 50 guys/ladies in Vegas that would do a great job of racking, why isn't there a referee that racks, calls fouls and over sees the match?
I agree with someone getting rewarded for hard work and Shane has certainly done that and more. What I don't understand is the racking part of the equation. It would have been a bad joke to Mosconi, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak, Hopkins, and Greenleaf to rack their own balls in a match.
Why don't they have a neutral Referee, and why isn't this the normal way to play a match of any significance? I know there's 50 guys/ladies in Vegas that would do a great job of racking, why isn't there a referee that racks, calls fouls and over sees the match?
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Im not very good at bank shots, can we change the rules so no one can bank balls or should I just practice my game? Why dont the pros work harder on thier breaks and try to get as good as Shane! A neutral racker would be great but players shouldnt be allowed to look at the rack, hit them as they are that would be fair to everyone.
I don't think his reasoning is the break.
The advantage to this is if one player could exploit another's weakness. For example, I thought Mike was deficient in the banking, kicking and jumping departments compared to Shane. Those were weaknesses (not because Mike's bad at this, just that Shane is so good). So if Shane were to push to a bank, Mike would have to either shoot it or safe it - either one riskier than giving it back to Shane who's favored to make even difficult banks. Same with jump shots - Mike would certainly have given back a jump shot to Shane and Shane is probably going to make it, get shape and run out.
I think Johnny is a lot smarter than most players and knows he can easily push out to exploit Mike weaknesses.
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Archer just beat Shane the last TAR 10 ball match and he has the best 10 ball break on earth. I like Archer against Mike no matter how they play. Archer has the better cueball and is consistent. That was also when the pockets were 4 1/8 on the TAR diamonds when Johnny beat Shane. I think Johnny should lobby for regular 10 ball rules on tight pockets and he has the best of it....
There were stretches of 3 to 5 hours where neither one of us missed a ball
That is the point exactly. Because of the equipment the break has become a huge factor and the game its self has taken a distant back seat. This doesn't mean the top players don't still win, because they do. The point is "how they play to win" and it's more about not making mistakes and "keeping it simple" than having to outmaneuver and out play you opponent in a dominant way.
The point of the conversation when Johnny Archer and I were talking about where 9 Ball has gone is it's just not near as difficult and we have to do something to bring back the integrity of the Game. The "soft break," "magic rack," "touching the balls," "racking your own balls," have got to be changed or we're stuck playing a "carnival game".
For those that think this is exaggerated I'll go into the gory details of this at another time. Just understand, it's not about the break, it's about the Game and bringing back the true character and difficulty that it once was.
Yes, Jimmy Wetch and I had some serious battles. I gave him the 8 when he was one of the top 5 in the country and he followed me around to 4 different states to play. Those were the days of playing until someone won and the other one waved the "white flag" (at least for the day
)
I remember the first time we played we battled for 28 straight hours going back and forth. Then we quit for 10 hours and went back at it and played for another 17 straight hours. There was about a 50 game swing in those hours, and I reached some of my highest possible levels. There were stretches of 3 to 5 hours where neither one of us missed a ball.
Some one actually sent me a message on Face Book about the match we had on Dallas where Strong Arm John was with me betting. He said I never missed a ball that had a pocket....I said "That's not correct, I made a ball that day that had no pockets"....
.... I'll go into some of the details at another time, I know Jimmy changed his perception of how rotation games could be played after those sessions. In those times I wasn't playing the Game, the Game was playing me. :wink:
That is the point exactly. Because of the equipment the break has become a huge factor and the game its self has taken a distant back seat. This doesn't mean the top players don't still win, because they do. The point is "how they play to win" and it's more about not making mistakes and "keeping it simple" than having to outmaneuver and out play you opponent in a dominant way.
The point of the conversation when Johnny Archer and I were talking about where 9 Ball has gone is it's just not near as difficult and we have to do something to bring back the integrity of the Game. The "soft break," "magic rack," "touching the balls," "racking your own balls," have got to be changed or we're stuck playing a "carnival game".
For those that think this is exaggerated I'll go into the gory details of this at another time. Just understand, it's not about the break, it's about the Game and bringing back the true character and difficulty that it once was.
Yes, Jimmy Wetch and I had some serious battles. I gave him the 8 when he was one of the top 5 in the country and he followed me around to 4 different states to play. Those were the days of playing until someone won and the other one waved the "white flag" (at least for the day
)I remember the first time we played we battled for 28 straight hours going back and forth. Then we quit for 10 hours and went back at it and played for another 17 straight hours. There was about a 50 game swing in those hours, and I reached some of my highest possible levels. There were stretches of 3 to 5 hours where neither one of us missed a ball.
Some one actually sent me a message on Face Book about the match we had on Dallas where Strong Arm John was with me betting. He said I never missed a ball that had a pocket....I said "That's not correct, I made a ball that day that had no pockets"....
.... I'll go into some of the details at another time, I know Jimmy changed his perception of how rotation games could be played after those sessions. In those times I wasn't playing the Game, the Game was playing me. :wink:
Mark,
I have to disagree if the breaker is doing the racking. Take your favorite pro and ask them to set up the rack for YOU to make a ball. Then ask them to set it up were you don't.
In the first case, I would bet that you would be surprised how well you now break. In the second, I would bet a ball might not make the back rail.
and just to complete the test now do it randomly and take a look at the rack and guess which one they did? and yes this is true with the magic rack .... just watch how lovingly and gently the head ball or corner ball is "stroked" back into place. FYI - That move has nothing to do with the ball that is being touched.
Instead of the push out after the break why not make it where each player has got to get to the table at least once each rack. Whether it is coming to the table after a push out or where after the breaker makes a ball at some point has to allow the other player to get to the table be it a missed shot or a safety. Pool is one of the only sports/game where you play an opponent but never get a chance to participate. While it is great for spectators to see a player run out a set, the gamblers, sweators, and aficionados want to see the nuances and subtleties that these types of situations would create. When players bnr..bnr..bnr it is not that exciting to the hardcore as CJ alluded to in earlier posts.
I think that each player getting to the table at least once should be used in all open tournaments. It doesn't necessarily have to be the push out tho. I think that the push out is a horrible rule but a necessity. Think about it playing winner breaks you win a game get the break and have to push out. When you have to push out you are the underdog. I feel that the breaker should have the option of the other player being the one to push out. You won the game you should get rewarded. With two equal players no one is going to fool the other player. I should clarify equal meaning similarly thinking players who can both execute. The push out after every break could just lead to other issues. If player a can jump but not player b where is player a going to push to every time?
oth players would play each game, how is that unfair.
The player at the table would always have the option to roll out or give the roll out to their opponent. This would a big advantage to the best breaker because you would have to roll out with less balls on the table and the 1 Ball probably close to the corner.
Both players would play each game, how is that unfair. This is the way it is in tennis, golf, table tennis, bowling, cards, fencing, pole vaulting, bob sledding, skeet shooting, calf roping, and MMA.....why not in pocket billiards?
The player at the table would always have the option to roll out or give the roll out to their opponent. This would a big advantage to the best breaker because you would have to roll out with less balls on the table and the 1 Ball probably close to the corner.
Both players would play each game, how is that unfair. This is the way it is in tennis, golf, table tennis, bowling, cards, fencing, pole vaulting, bob sledding, skeet shooting, calf roping, and MMA.....why not in pocket billiards?
The bottom line is all the racking nonsense is hurting the game. I can't bear to watch these guys stroking the rack and fingering the one ball and setting the balls up in a certain pattern. It's brutal. When guys are gambling they can make any stipulations they want and that's their prerogative, but I don't see how two guys can match up at that level and allow those things to be a part of the game and furthermore how that stuff could be allowed in tournaments. I mean when your gambling and a guy doesn't know about that stuff it's his fault but what about when everyone knows it. Also one more thought. Maybe the Americans should start matching up playing rotation. Wouldn't that take away a ton of the racking issues and pattern racking nonsense. Break good dont break good still plenty of clusters and safeties and running out all in one. Plenty of spots and handicaps that can be played with.
Cj, who is the favorite? The guy who pushes or the guy who has the option to take it or give it back.
Playing nine ball breaker makes every ball except 9 and has to push. Who do you want to be?
Please have Johnny state at least 5 Filipinos he will play with the push out after the break. I don't know any of them personally but I will quickly make a connection and get him the game with at least one of them. I'm sure the first one I call, will be waiting by the table.