Just for US players

[Johnnyt]

The money in the USA attracts Asian and European players for now - esp. the women. The money and frequency of tourneys in Asia seems to be on the rise and may keep the Asians at home so that the USA and European players can keep more of the money - if it's about the money.

It's only about the money. That's all I'm saying here. I don't want to get in a p*****G contest with other countries. It's about keeping whatever little money there is now so our players can continue to do what they love and still eat and have a roof over their head. The key words are FOR NOW. Johnnyt

 

[Terry Ardeno]

The reason why American players cannot play in oversees events is because mostly are sanctioned by the Federation of that particular country; therefore, these organizations (lets say the APBU, CPB, EPB, etc) may not allow American players in their tournaments because it is for that organizations' membership only.

Harold,

I did not read all the previous posts in this thread and perhaps I'm being stupid by posting a question on something that may already be there but I'm very tight with time right now.

You wrote... American players can not play in overseas events because those events ares sanctioned by the Federation...they may not allow American players in their tournaments....those tournaments are for that organization's members only.

Here's my question....THAT is OK, but if it were turned around, say America had a closed tournament only for THEIR "members", that would NOT be OK? Why would it be wrong for us to adopt the same thinking?

Now for my own comment...Why is it that America is always expected to give, give ,give? What do we ever get, get, get from any other country or people? Not individual people with benevolent hearts, but whole peoples.

And if the USA is not the world powerhouse in pool anymore (which is true by the way, we're not), then should the new world leaders in pool follow our lead and treat us like we graciously treated all those who came here and wanted to play?

Harold, I am not addressing these questions to you per say, I just read your post and the comment I quoted stood out to me. And if the answers to my questions are posted elsewhere in this thread, please forgive me. I'll look the whole thread over later tonight.

Thanks Harold

 

[ShootingArts]

obviously . . .

Obviously reading comprehension isn't your strong point or you didn't actually read my posts.

This is freaking unbelievable....I cannot believe all the BS I am reading here. We (and yes I am a New Yorker) should then request all other sports organizations in the US a name change to "American PGA Tour, American NBA, American MLB, American WNBA, etc....

The reason why American players cannot play in oversees events is because mostly are sanctioned by the Federation of that particular country; herefore, these organizations (lets say the APBU, CPB, EPB, etc) may not allow American players in their tournaments because it is for that organizations' membership only. ......

Ah, so now you are saying that it would be fine to ban foreigners if we formed a federation and locked them out of it! Consistency isn't a strong point of yours either.

Hu

 

[Johnnyt]

This is freaking unbelievable....I cannot believe all the BS I am reading here. We (and yes I am a New Yorker) should then request all other sports organizations in the US a name change to "American PGA Tour, American NBA, American MLB, American WNBA, etc....

The reason why American players cannot play in oversees events is because mostly are sanctioned by the Federation of that particular country; therefore, these organizations (lets say the APBU, CPB, EPB, etc) may not allow American players in their tournaments because it is for that organizations' membership only.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. The Americans dominated the pool world because they were the only ones doing Pool tournaments at one time but when the other countries started their own leagues, organizations, and were obviously entering all "Open" events in the U.S., it was demonstrated that the "Americans" were no longer the "rulers" of the sport. Now the "Americans" are crying "wolf" because they can no longer handle the "international" field. What a freaking pity.

"If you cannot stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen......

Puerto Rico is a commonwealth associated with the US so if we had US only tournaments Puerto Rico could play anyhow I'm sure. Johnnyt

 

[DonFelix]

ok, so i´m as a european have to respond here:

american players cannot play in overseas events? ridiculous - there is no bigger (prize money) tournament for european or germany players only.....but i don´t know about asian...

low purses in american events? ridiculous - at least for european standards - if you divide the standard american prize money by five (probably more), you have the prize money here in europe......

it is easier for european players to compete in american tournaments because of sponsoring? ridiculous again - at least for germans and many other european players (probably except the dutch players)

maybe you don´t know the status of pool in europe very well, but the living by pool in europe is even tougher than in the usa

 

[Roy Steffensen]

I think it is a total shame that there is no tournament like for example The American 9-ball Championship.

In Norway we have Norwegian Championships in 8-ball, 9-ball and 14-1, and if you want to play in the tournament you must be a Norwegian, or you must have lived the last year in Norway. (All other tournaments are open for all players, AND the championships are without pricemoney, but still the most popular ones)

I know Germany, Sweden, Holland, Philippines also have championships like this, so why not in the US?`

I believe a tournament like that would create a big buzz in the US, with a lot of players competing for the prestigous title: AMERICAN CHAMPION

A true American Championship is perhaps also the first step to get the government involved with sponsorship for you, IMO

 

[Johnnyt]

ok, so i´m as a european have to respond here:

american players cannot play in overseas events? ridiculous - there is no bigger (prize money) tournament for european or germany players only.....but i don´t know about asian...

low purses in american events? ridiculous - at least for european standards - if you divide the standard american prize money by five (probably more), you have the prize money here in europe......

it is easier for european players to compete in american tournaments because of sponsoring? ridiculous again - at least for germans and many other european players (probably except the dutch players)

maybe you don´t know the status of pool in europe very well, but the living by pool in europe is even tougher than in the usa

I said most of the other countries get help from their governments. Perhaps I should have said SOME. It doen't matter though. I'm talking about no money leaving the USA touraments for any other country. There is just not enough of it to share. Johnnyt

 

[DonFelix]

I said most of the other countries get help from their governments. Perhaps I should have said SOME. It doen't matter though. I'm talking about no money leaving the USA touraments for any other country. There is just not enough of it to share. Johnnyt

okok, i don´t argue with the idea of a national championship in the us, in only wanted to show that the living by pool is not tougher in america

in europe there is not even one tournament with a prize money near the prize money in the bigger us tournaments (still often won by americans)

 

[sjm]

I'm not on board with this line of thinking. Eliminate the foreign players from the mainstream of American pool and what you create is a far less attractive professional pool product.

Every single event is less attractive to potential sponsors, and yet the suggestion is made that sponsors would be just as financially supportive of pro pool events having far weaker fields. I seriously doubt that this is true. Every businessperson understands that a reduction in the quality of the product being sold will result in less demand for the product.

Let's not devalue the pro pool product delivered here in Ameirca but, instead, celebrate the fact that most of the tournaments having balanced, elite, international fields are played in Ameirca.

Protectionism never sits well with me, despite the reality that the American pool player has, far too often, gotten a raw deal in the international tournament scene. Over the years, most of my favorites have been Americans, but, ultimately, I care whether the world's best pool players make a good living at it, not whether the best American pool players make a good living at it.

Our mission should be to develop a system by which Ameircan players have the opportunities and means to compete effectively at the highest level. If, alternatively, we opted to boost American chances by distancing the American professionals from the world's most elite players, we will not only devalue the pool product here in America, but we will make it harder and harder for American professionals to reach the highest levels of excellence as players.

Don't eliminate the wonderfully intriguing international pro pool proudct. Mold it, better it, support it, and learn to sell it. Lofty goals for sure, but that's where our focus should be, at least in the view of this AZB poster.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I think it might be time to just have pro tournaments in the USA for American players only, both women and men’s. ...

It is the responsibility of the governing body of pool in the US to conduct National Championships. Right now such a tournament is held only for Juniors. In theory, the BCA is responsible for this, but since the UPA has been designated the ranking authority for men's pool and the WPBA for women's pool, I suppose they get the credit.

National championships are typically limited to citizens but may permit permanent residents (green card holders) to enter as well. (I'm not sure what the WPA's ruling on this is.)

As for an "all American" tour, I suppose you could have qualifiers for the Nationals that are similarly restricted to citizens. That's what the USBA does.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Just doing a quick look-up of money that went out of the county in a year is about $5,000,000. I didn't count any IPT money either. If I spent a few hours looking more up I can see where it probably would be more like seven or eight million going out. Even at $5,000,000...thats 50 $100,000 tournaments we could have here... or break it up more to 200 $25,000 tournaments. You can't tell me that wouldn't help the US players earn more of a livelyhood. Johnnyt

I think you have slipped a couple of decimal points. AZB has a players' money list. For 2007, Johnny Archer is in first place. Xiao-Ting Pan is in second place, but she won the largest part of her money in Taipei. She did win about $29k on WPBA events. Third is Efren who won about $37k at Derby City. Are you going to ban Efren from Derby City? (Of course not, that was a rhetorical question, and Efren is essential to the atmosphere of DCC.) Next in line is Dennis Orcollo, who has won about $20k in the US this year. Next on the money list is Ronnie Alcano, who won all his money outside the US. Next in line are Jeanette, Corey and Shane, who I think are all Americans.

So, for the top eight money winners this year, according to AZB, we are up to $86k "stolen" by foreigners. I think it's a long way between that and $5 million. How did you get such a high number?

 

[juegabillar]

Harold,

I did not read all the previous posts in this thread and perhaps I'm being stupid by posting a question on something that may already be there but I'm very tight with time right now.

You wrote... American players can not play in overseas events because those events ares sanctioned by the Federation...they may not allow American players in their tournaments....those tournaments are for that organization's members only.

Here's my question....THAT is OK, but if it were turned around, say America had a closed tournament only for THEIR "members", that would NOT be OK? Why would it be wrong for us to adopt the same thinking?

Now for my own comment...Why is it that America is always expected to give, give ,give? What do we ever get, get, get from any other country or people? Not individual people with benevolent hearts, but whole peoples.

And if the USA is not the world powerhouse in pool anymore (which is true by the way, we're not), then should the new world leaders in pool follow our lead and treat us like we graciously treated all those who came here and wanted to play?

Harold, I am not addressing these questions to you per say, I just read your post and the comment I quoted stood out to me. And if the answers to my questions are posted elsewhere in this thread, please forgive me. I'll look the whole thread over later tonight.

Thanks Harold

Terry:

I really dont see a need for an "American Only Championship." The current "Pool Organizational Structures" and laws in the U.S. most probably could not allow it. It would probably have to be a "U.S. Championship." There would have to be a definition of what constitutes being "American." As we all know, many inmigrants become "American Citizens". These people should be allowed to participate in an "American event" because they are now citizens, work and pay taxes as all "American Born." This means that we could really not segregate groups of people since we/they are all "Americans" regardless of where they were born.

We also have "American Residents" living in the U.S from all over the World. They too work, and pay taxes. Some have been living for many years in the U.S, have married, have American Born children, etc. They should also be allowed to participate because they are part of "America."

Some of the known "International players" are now U.S. Citizens. They have been established in the U.S for several years now. Should we not allow them to play because they were born overseas?

Any promoter or organization would have to be very carefull of what do they with regards to what we have dubbed "American Championship for American Players." It is truly much more difficult to do in the U.S, than in any other World Country.

In Puerto Rico, I will allow any player to become member or participate in many of our Tournaments regardless of where they were born; however, our National Championships are for Federation members only. Many of our members and stellar players were not born in Puerto Rico but have Puerto Rican Descent. I am one of them.

Many other countries have similiar or specific statutes or regulations concerning what constitutes their membership and tournament rules. The USA happens to be a country in which their most famous tournaments happen to be "Open" to all players of the World. BCA, Valley Forge, U.S. Open, Derby City Classic, etc. These tournaments are "what they are" because it does not discriminate against any world class or local players.

Again and in essence, I believe it would have to be a "U.S. Championship" and any of the U.S. Organizations (BCA, APA, ACS, UPA) would have to come up with whatever reasoning to make and promote this Championship. Another option is the American Cuesports Alliance with their own "All American Tour."

I hope that in some way I have "explained" myself on this subject. Feel free to contact me on any other questions you may have.


Harold

 

[Johnnyt]

I used 2004 the last complete year before the IPT. I didn't just use the top 20. I looked all through as many as I could find in about an hour. Johnnyt

 

[RED NAXELA]

Our mission should be to develop a system by which Ameircan players have the opportunities and means to compete effectively at the highest level. If, alternatively, we opted to boost American chances by distancing the American professionals from the world's most elite players, we will not only devalue the pool product here in America, but we will make it harder and harder for American professionals to reach the highest levels of excellence as players.

sjm, why do you kill threads with your sober, thoughtful posts? You are so annoying.

 

[juegabillar]

It is the responsibility of the governing body of pool in the US to conduct National Championships. Right now such a tournament is held only for Juniors. In theory, the BCA is responsible for this, but since the UPA has been designated the ranking authority for men's pool and the WPBA for women's pool, I suppose they get the credit.

National championships are typically limited to citizens but may permit permanent residents (green card holders) to enter as well. (I'm not sure what the WPA's ruling on this is.)

As for an "all American" tour, I suppose you could have qualifiers for the Nationals that are similarly restricted to citizens. That's what the USBA does.

True. National Championships are the responsibility of respective governing bodies and limited to their membership. Puerto Rico allows membership regardless of place of birth as long as they are "residents" of Puerto Rico, or have Puerto Rican Descent (mother, father, grandparents).

For example: Tony Robles, Jose Garcia, Mike Lebron, Frankie Hernandez, Rob Saez, Julio Aquino, Louis Viera would be allowed membership to our Federation.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I used 2004 the last complete year before the IPT. I didn't just use the top 20. I looked all through as many as I could find in about an hour. Johnnyt

I still think you're mistaken. Here are the amounts that the non-US men in the top 20 won in US events in thousands of dollars:

43 Reyes
15 Pagulayan
56 Engert
53 Feijen
46 Hohmann
11 Bustamante
40 Immonen
37 Souquet
2 Chang
4 Chamat
---
307k total

Below the top 20 men no player won more than $27,000 total for the year. I doubt that you are going to get to $5M, but it would be interesting to see your list. Did you keep it?

 

[jimmy-leggs]

If you think pool is in trouble NOW,try and eliminate non U.S. players to certain tournaments.THEN you will see how sad this sport is.Then you can narrow it down to whites only,30-50 years of age,185 lb max.C'MON this is the stupidest idea I have ever heard.
The I.P.T. was the best thing that happened for pool.wrong guy to run it but great for pool.That kind of league is what pool needs,but unfortunately it should never have taken place in the states,people didnt come out to support it,where if it was held in somewhere overseas where pool is booming ,it would have been financially stable,thus K.T. would still be intrigued and all players would be happy,hopefully financially as well.
As far as players that cant get sponsors,I call B.S..my friend is in the first year being on the wpba on she wanted me to help her out getting sponsors so she could just play pool and get better,we searched a few people we know and boom she has a very good sponsor where all her expenses are paid.
There is alot of money in this world ,you just have to find.
sorry if this is messy and not understandable,i'm at work and just wanted to throw in my 2 cents

 

[juegabillar]

This is a good and controversial thread. I don't think that fields should include only Americans. I believe that the Americans should strive to get better if they want to compete and win. The idea of a "Free" country and world allows others to enjoy the liberties to come and play if they want to. However, I think that there should be a limit to how long a non-citizen can be in the country without actually having to become a citizen. This would make foreign players have to pick a couple of tournaments a year over here or make them gain legal citizenship. I also think that any money won over here should be taxed here. Also, if you make money in this country, then you should have to speak the language. I get clients daily that speak no English and complain because we don't speak spanish. Well, news flash clown, this is America. I won't get off on a tangent rant, but I will say that every illegal immigrant should be shipped off immediately. I paid over $28,000 last year in taxes and that was after some very creative accounting to say the least. The fact that anyone working here illegally pays no taxes absolutely tears me up. I think that pool should have at least a few guidelines to combat this.

From what I know, any amount over $750 in tournament wins has to be informed to the IRS. This includes "foreign players", therefore, they are also "Taxed" just as any other "American."

I hope that I have not misinterpreted your post but it seems you are saying that some of the "foreign or international players" are illegal inmigrants and should be shipped off immediately. While there may be a slight possibility of some "illegal inmigrants", I am certain that most international players in the U.S have their paperwork up to date.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I'm not on board with this line of thinking. Eliminate the foreign players from the mainstream of American pool and what you create is a far less attractive professional pool product.

SJM,
I totally agree. If players like Fong Pang Chao, Ralf Souquet, Oliver Ortmann, Efren Reyes, et al, participate in a tournament in America, I belive that tournament gains loads of attention, interest and possibly even glamor.

My point on this subject was not to deny foreign players the right to participate here, rather, it was to bemoan the fact that many other countries DO DENY players that are foreigners THERE the right to particiapate in what essentially are CLOSED tournaments. Yet, when Johnnyt suggests maybe having one such tournament in America just for OUR players, that is closed to non-Americans, well, that just doesn't sit right with some other posters. THAT is what I don't agree with.

Personally, if I had my way, Chao, Ortmann, Engert, Evgeny Stalev, Andam, Luat and Reyes would be invited to every tournament...these guys are some of my favorite players to watch, cheer on and root for. But, if any of them were playing Strickland, Shannon Daulton, Grady Mathews, Jimmy Fusco, Varner, Vickery, my favorite American players, well, I would root for the Americans.

Bottom line-If it's OK for other countries / Federations to hold closed National tournaments, why do we as Americans not have that same right?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Bottom line-If it's OK for other countries / Federations to hold closed National tournaments, why do we as Americans not have that same right?

It has nothing to do with "rights." It has to do with the responsible US organization (BCA or UPA or ACS or WPBA or APA or ...) putting together a national championship. If it/they put together a National Championship, it certainly wouldn't and shouldn't let in foreign players.

I imagine those countries that do hold national championships think the US pool orgs are laughable. A huge (relatively speaking) industry and no championship.