Keith McCready: Toughest Gamblers Ever

JAM said:
Joey, are you pretty sure that is how you spell Mark's last name? For another pool-related project I am working on, his name popped up several times, and I have no idea how to spell it.

If anyone else can spell Mark's last name, please feel free to chime in here! :p

JAM
http://www.thepokerforum.com/lop044.htm
My bad. It is Betor. I'm almost sure that's him as he's a poker player as well and lived in Downey. Mark of course also staked Jack Cooney.
Mark was great for pool when he hanged out by Hard Times.
Also promoted the last LA Open.
Staked Efren for a while. Real nice fella.
 
JAM said:
Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. Hey, that sounds like a good name for a song! Huh? :p

I'll try to spell it out for you, just in case you misunderstand what I write. I am subject to have every single word I write dissected. If I post a picture of my boyfriend laying on the sofa with our dog Sammy, he is thereafter referred to as a "bum on a sofa." This is the mind-set I'm dealing with as it pertains to some forum members.

You know, on second thought, I'm not going to fully explain my post in elaborate detail. If you do not understand the reasoning for it, then maybe it's better left unsaid.

In short, though, some stakehorses get funny when it comes to cutting up that money. I'll just leave it at that. Some pool players consider that stealing when they've given it their all in a match and were expecting the beforehand agreed-upon amount that they are to receive if they win.

Thank you again for your civilized response. I hope I have helped to clarify a wee bit what the intention was of my words. If I may provide further clarification, please do not hesitate to provide another opinion about what I write.

JAM


lol, you didnt clarify anything with that post. Why would a player dump the guy that is giving him a chance to make money? It would be akin to me stealing from my boss because he makes more than I do. If a player doesn't like the way a stakehorse opperates then don't let that person stake you again or better yet, USE YOUR OWN MONEY. Now, there is a novel idea that would making dumping obsolete.
 
Enjoy.....
 

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JAM said:
Let it be said that some stakehorses, especially the real greedy ones who don't know how to cut up the money right, deserve to be dumped next time out of the gate. That's when the pool players wise up.

JAM

Just so I understand - do you mean that the stakehorse changed the agreement that he had originally made with the player & chopped the money up differently? As a player shouldn't dump, a stakehorse should stick to his word when it comes to the money split.

A good agreement & good stakehorse with a good player can make money.

Also, with the increase over the years in the price of hotels - you see more players out on the road in pairs or threes. Helps with expenses of the hotel, gas, etc. You don't see too many players traveling by themselves.
 
JoeyInCali said:
http://www.thepokerforum.com/lop044.htm
My bad. It is Betor. I'm almost sure that's him as he's a poker player as well and lived in Downey. Mark of course also staked Jack Cooney.
Mark was great for pool when he hanged out by Hard Times.
Also promoted the last LA Open.
Staked Efren for a while. Real nice fella.

That is him. I have only met him in person one time, and that was in Vegas a couple years ago.

We went to his hotel room with an old-time friend of Keith's to say hi. Keith and Mark go way back. He was so nice to me. Keith said he looked as if he had lost a lot of weight. Inside this hotel room was Jack Cooney, Jack Cooney's girlfriend/wife (not sure), and several other Californians.

I remember sitting on the bed and not saying too much. Jack Cooney was trying to be friendly, as he was sitting nearby where I was sitting. I had heard of him many times in the past. After a short time, though, Jack Cooney's girlfriend was darting me dirty looks when Jack and I were engaged in conversation. I immediately began to feel uncomfortable and told Keith that I wanted to leave.

I think they were all good friends there and just wanted to party a little. Since I don't drink alcohol, et cetera, I'm a party pooper today. :p

JAM
 
JoeyInCali said:
http://www.thepokerforum.com/lop044.htm
My bad. It is Betor. I'm almost sure that's him as he's a poker player as well and lived in Downey. Mark of course also staked Jack Cooney.
Mark was great for pool when he hanged out by Hard Times.
Also promoted the last LA Open.
Staked Efren for a while. Real nice fella.
Staked Reid Pierce as well. Also was known to stake himself.
 
Keith McCready said:
The toughest ones to beat out of any money that I've run across are Billy Incardona.... tough as nails to match up with.

Grady Mathews has always been fair to gamble with because he would take a game and bet you as high as you can fly. That's the one thing I always liked about Grady.


Man, is it nice to see Billy & Grady getting props for their gambling tenacity. Because they are so talented in many other areas, such as matching up, commentating, etc., they're often overlooked when the subject at hand comes up.

Good for you Keith!
 
Keith McCready said:
Let me add a little more. The toughest ones to beat out of any money that I've run across are Billy Incardona and Bucktooth. The reason being is they were tough as nails to match up with.

Bucktooth especially was difficult to get down, but if you could get his nose open, he would go off. I only beat him one time. I had to quit him winner because he's such a nice guy, if you know what I mean. LOL. And then he found a way, his way, to come back and beat me out of a little something. He is a hard campaigner to deal with, but if you can take the worst of it, you will go ahead and win yourself a nice little package.

As far as good guys to gamble with, Eddie Burton, Cole Dixon, Wade Crane, Richie Florence, they all used to stack it up.

Grady Mathews has always been fair to gamble with because he would take a game and bet you as high as you can fly. That's the one thing I always liked about Grady.

Harry Platis is another one who I would consider a good man to gamble with. He has no fear and would play anybody for whatever they had, as long as they gave him a semi chance to win.

I cannot forget Mark Bitore who put pool players in action annually around the country. One thing about Mark, if you beat one of his guys, there would be another one standing in line to play you. He moved them in and out like a coach, and you could bet until your arms fall off. One time I was broke over there in Dallas, and he staked me over the phone for 2,000to play Lizard one-pocket even. I beat him in 30 minutes, 5 ahead.

Bookmaker Rodney from Houston comes to mind, but he's all done playing now. Weldon Rogers is another sniper. Let's not forget about Harley from Jacksonville, Cornbread Red in Detroit. These are just a few action men I can think of offhand, but today some people might not know these names.

There's a lot of players that were hard to beat and hard to gamble with. Larry Hubbart and Mike Sigel were tough to beat. I believe I was the only one that ever beat them out of any money when they were traveling on the road. They didn't book too many losers.

As far as people gambling today, I think that it has sort of gone out the window. It's nothing like it was in the '70s. The '70s could give pool the 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and the break as far as gambling, and you can take it for what it's worth. It will never, ever be like it was back then.
keith, thanks for the kind words,actually i still try to play but no one comes around much (rarely miss a ball ) as someone said races hurt pool a lot, younger players lose a set maybe 2 its over. could be less than 3 games difference. ironman come on down! rodney
 
I was in Vegas a few years ago at the BCA nationals. Back then the practice room or matchup room beside the Splashbar was still their. I walked in about 3:00 in the morning to see what was going on. Keith was playing some big black guy 9 ball. They were arguing over a bad hit i believe the black dude had made. Keith had picked up the cue ball and was going to run out. The other guy grabs Keiths cue from him and starts chasing him around the table. The guy fianally gives up but want give Keith his cue back. So Keith grabs a short jump cue with a phenolic tip puts the cue ball on the table and runs the rack out. I dont know what ever happened after that i went to bed. Maybe Keith can correct me or tell what really happened after that. Just a funny story i had gotten there in time to see only part.
 
enzo said:
keith is unbelievable, really. in my experience with him he conducted himself well and hardly ever complained when he lost.... something very few modern players can claim.

tough gambler though? on whose money, his own? i remember he used to say out loud..... "i gotta act like this, it keeps the backers comin." i personally think he just loved to play and really didnt mind being in a bad game cus he knew he could win if he played good. you really HAVE to love him and his style, especially considering most players nowadays.
i played keith in the late 70's in baton rouge. 8 or 10 hours. he bet his own and never missed one ball. i played a lot of good players,(greg stevens,incardon, seigle,steve cook) but at that time he played the very best of all.
 
JAM said:
Maybe we have a misunderstanding. I have never heard of steak horses. Horses don't eat steak that I know of. They are vegetarians.

I am referring to stakehorses. There is a difference.

JAM

You two ought to get married.
 
pharaoh68 said:
Hey! Let's leave the slurs out of this!!!

Just kidding. Couldn't resist.

You have a good eye. I apologize and assure you it wasn't intentional. I did edit the mistake.

Gotta admitt though, LMAO!
 
JAM said:
Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. Hey, that sounds like a good name for a song! Huh? :p

I'll try to spell it out for you, just in case you misunderstand what I write. I am subject to have every single word I write dissected. If I post a picture of my boyfriend laying on the sofa with our dog Sammy, he is thereafter referred to as a "bum on a sofa." This is the mind-set I'm dealing with as it pertains to some forum members.

You know, on second thought, I'm not going to fully explain my post in elaborate detail. If you do not understand the reasoning for it, then maybe it's better left unsaid.

In short, though, some stakehorses get funny when it comes to cutting up that money. I'll just leave it at that. Some pool players consider that stealing when they've given it their all in a match and were expecting the beforehand agreed-upon amount that they are to receive if they win.

Thank you again for your civilized response. I hope I have helped to clarify a wee bit what the intention was of my words. If I may provide further clarification, please do not hesitate to provide another opinion about what I write.

JAM


I think a majority of people understood what you ment......IMO it may have been better to say that if a player identifes a stakehorse that uses "fuzzy math" to pay of his players...the players should boycott that stakehorse and not give him any further opportunity to make money at backing "real" pool players...

Suggesting that a stakehorse like that deserves to be dumped is not wrong in a sense.. I agree that they do "deserve" to be dumped...The problem is that on this board people will put associtaions of the "deservedness" (if you will) to the players and that association then has the potential to scar a otherwise upstanding players reputation....(even though the stakehorse deserved it)

You are correct though....that kind of stakehorse deserves to be dumped.....But if I was a player of that caliber...I would not risk my reputaion and future opportunities with "other" legit stakehorses just to give someone what they deserve...;)

On to more important things.... I was thinking about asking why a book about Keith is not being done...(but you answered that already)

I am looking forward to that book coming out... Any previews on the book title???

"The Real Grady Seasons"
"Either"
"????"
 
JoeyInCali said:
http://www.thepokerforum.com/lop044.htm
My bad. It is Betor. I'm almost sure that's him as he's a poker player as well and lived in Downey. Mark of course also staked Jack Cooney.
Mark was great for pool when he hanged out by Hard Times.
Also promoted the last LA Open.
Staked Efren for a while. Real nice fella.

Mark would back Marcus Chamat at the Hardtimes - Jennifer Chin and Eileen Pippin would travel with Marcus. Earler Gerda and Allison would practice at the Hardtimes and South Bay Pool as they learned to play 9 Ball as well as Helena and Jeanette - good times.
 
the other side of the coin

I have had knotheads bust my deal out of pure ignorance a time or three. What is really fun is though is the other side of the coin from what Keith did. When you walk in a place and there is someone that you "owe one" that is in the middle of a scam. Walking up to them as a big buddy and talking about "old times" and their big scores busts the scam wide open. I have seen folks so mad they couldn't talk, literally, when I did that to them. Paybacks can be enough fun to make you almost glad you owed somebody a "favor".

I'm not really one to hold a grudge but I still believe the doctor slapped my butt a lot harder than he needed to when I was born and he enjoyed it too! One day . . . .

Hu



JAM said:
When I first met Keith, he was staying at some dump named the Regal Inn, next door to a pool room in Baltimore. It was right after the Capital City Classic tournament concluded. A few players remained in Maryland and hung out at the pool room, hoping to get in action, which included Mark Gregory, Marcus Chamat, Helena Thornsfeldt, and Monica Webb. All the local shortstops, lobsters, and champions came to Baltimore to gamble. It was an action player's dream at that time.

One afternoon, a kid from the pool room came to Keith's hotel room and knocked on the door. He said, "Keith, Keith, come quick to the pool room. There's a road agent in there looking for some action, and he's got a backer with him. They said they'd play for big bucks, anybody. Come quick before they leave."

Keith decided to go take a peek and see what was up. Of course, he didn't have any friends in this pool room. He was kind of a stranger in town, though everybody knew who Keith was. Upon entering the joint, he looks over and sees Larry Price. They made eye contact briefly, and then Keith walked back outside. I ran after him and said, "What are you doing? Didn't you see the guy? Find out how much he wants to play for."

He kept walking and went back to his hotel room and then told me that he saw a road player he was good friends with and couldn't blow his cover. It just wouldn't be right. That's why he exited almost as quickly as he entered, to avoid any problems for Larry Price. That's what road players do sometimes when they run into each other on foreign turf.

I learned that the hard way one time, which is a story for another thread, but to make a long story short, when I was on the road with a player during an era when action was prevalent, I recognized a player from back home in Boone, North Carolina, of all places. As soon as we walked in the joint and I saw him, I go, "Hey, Bobby. Good to see you. What brings you all the way down here?" Oh, yeah. I was pretty green at one time. :o

JAM
 
It's just my humble, non-flaming, nice-guy opinion....

1) No matter how small a player's cut is when being staked... if they agree to it up-front, that doesn't make a stakehorse "bad"

2) If a player doesn't like the way a stakehorse operates or cuts the money, don't bi*ch about it, put yourself into action and eliminate any stakehorse from future equations. If you can't afford to, it's like having a sh*tty boss..."it is what it is." Look at it this way, you're still making money in situations where you're unable to make money on your own -- without the guy.

3) Short of a stakehorse putting a player "in the middle" somehow ... there's no excuse I could think of that would justify dumping a stakehorse

This is not a retort to JAM's post in any way, just my respectful opinion from my experience. When I say I'll give you X%, and you win, you get X%. If a player lies to me to get me to put them into action (i.e. they're stealing the other players guts out) and the other player is a world-champion and I go in the hole a ton of $ and walk away a slight winner.... I'm not gonna be a nice guy to the player because of the unexpected incurred risk. There are multiple sides to every "stakehorse" story, I'm sure.

It's like going to a "Payroll advance" place, loaning $200, and then complaining later you have to pay back $350. Just my respectful opinion. The answer is put yourself in to protect yourself.

__SPIDER__
 
SpiderWebComm said:
It's just my humble, non-flaming, nice-guy opinion....

1) No matter how small a player's cut is when being staked... if they agree to it up-front, that doesn't make a stakehorse "bad"

2) If a player doesn't like the way a stakehorse operates or cuts the money, don't bi*ch about it, put yourself into action and eliminate any stakehorse from future equations. If you can't afford to, it's like having a sh*tty boss..."it is what it is." Look at it this way, you're still making money in situations where you're unable to make money on your own -- without the guy.

3) Short of a stakehorse putting a player "in the middle" somehow ... there's no excuse I could think of that would justify dumping a stakehorse

This is not a retort to JAM's post in any way, just my respectful opinion from my experience. When I say I'll give you X%, and you win, you get X%. If a player lies to me to get me to put them into action (i.e. they're stealing the other players guts out) and the other player is a world-champion and I go in the hole a ton of $ and walk away a slight winner.... I'm not gonna be a nice guy to the player because of the unexpected incurred risk. There are multiple sides to every "stakehorse" story, I'm sure.

It's like going to a "Payroll advance" place, loaning $200, and then complaining later you have to pay back $350. Just my respectful opinion. The answer is put yourself in to protect yourself.

__SPIDER__


great post. Would read again.
 
Pool Gamblers

Let's not forget about Cornbread Red in Detroit.

Hi Keither: May I suggest we not forget about "Nine Ball" Harry Sexton, also known as "Poochy Sexton"

Cross Side Larry
 
crawfish said:
What ever happened to Dean Moore? Anyone?

Not sure.

His nephew posts on here some. At least I am pretty sure that they are related. Mitch Y that has a room in Ga now.
 
freddy the beard said:
A DVD of that sort is being edited for publication as we speak. Diana Hoppe put together a multi-hour, round table interview consisting of myself, DiLiberto, W. Crane, Vernon, Jimmy Reid, Eddie Kelly, Jimmy Fusco, Incardona, Truman, Grady and Ronnie Allen, at the end of the DCC tourn. It should be released soon. To view a group photo of that motley crew: http://www.bankingwiththebeard.com/pictures.html

the Beard


Great to hear Freddy. That format really brings out all the stories.
 
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