Machine Gun Lou Butera

Snapshot9

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
I would like to hear some stories about Machine Gun Lou. Here is the listing for him in the BCA hall of fame:

LOU BUTERA was born in Pittston, Pennsylvania. He learned to play at his father's pool room in the small coal-mining town. After watching BCA Hall of Famer Erwin Rudolph in an exhibition, 14-year-old Lou decided to devote his life to pool. He was runner-up to Irving Crane in the 1972 World Championship in Los Angeles. In 1973 he defeated Crane in the finals of the same event to win his first World Championship. Nicknamed "Machine Gun Lou" for his rapid fire style, Lou recorded a 150-ball run against Allen Hopkins in just 21 minutes in 1973. Butera has since won numerous titles.
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150 ball run 14.1 in 21 minutes - WOW!!! I am still trying to get my mind around this. I wonder if this includes racking time in it????

I play all the time with a real fast player that is real good, a lefty, like Luc Salvas is. Anyone got some good stories about Lou?
 
Snapshot9 said:
I would like to hear some stories about Machine Gun Lou. Here is the listing for him in the BCA hall of fame:

LOU BUTERA was born in Pittston, Pennsylvania. He learned to play at his father's pool room in the small coal-mining town. After watching BCA Hall of Famer Erwin Rudolph in an exhibition, 14-year-old Lou decided to devote his life to pool. He was runner-up to Irving Crane in the 1972 World Championship in Los Angeles. In 1973 he defeated Crane in the finals of the same event to win his first World Championship. Nicknamed "Machine Gun Lou" for his rapid fire style, Lou recorded a 150-ball run against Allen Hopkins in just 21 minutes in 1973. Butera has since won numerous titles.
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150 ball run 14.1 in 21 minutes - WOW!!! I am still trying to get my mind around this. I wonder if this includes racking time in it????

I play all the time with a real fast player that is real good, a lefty, like Luc Salvas is. Anyone got some good stories about Lou?
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Bill Porter sells a DVD from a tournament in 1980 where about 15 Players or Cuemakers are interviewed on sticks, tournaments etc. Lou is very outspoken and goes on for 53 minutes, a lot of which is him talking about his disdain for Mosconi. Pretty interesting and it is only $20. It's audio only.
 
Snapshot9 said:
I would like to hear some stories about Machine Gun Lou.
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I've only got one, but I think it's important for people my age and the guys I used to play pool with growing up. I had a friend who used to say that he was going to be a pro pool player someday. He had a table in his house and he was one of the better players in my town. And, he played for money and won a good amount for a teenager in a no name town.

I kept trying to tell him that there was a big difference between a good player and a professional player, but he insisted that he can do anything that he's ever seen on TV. One evening, we were at a bar, and I have no idea what channel it was, but there was a pool show with Lou Butera playing some celebrity. Lou proceeded to break and run the 9-ball rack. I think he did it at least twice in a row, possibly three (could have been editing). The kicker was that he was shooting one handed, including the break. "Can you do that?" I asked my friend? Pretty humbling day for him. At the time, Lou had no chance against the touring professionals.

BTW, when we were finally old enough to play the APA, he never got past an SL-5.

Fred
 
Snapshot9 said:
I would like to hear some stories about Machine Gun Lou. Here is the listing for him in the BCA hall of fame:

LOU BUTERA was born in Pittston, Pennsylvania. He learned to play at his father's pool room in the small coal-mining town. After watching BCA Hall of Famer Erwin Rudolph in an exhibition, 14-year-old Lou decided to devote his life to pool. He was runner-up to Irving Crane in the 1972 World Championship in Los Angeles. In 1973 he defeated Crane in the finals of the same event to win his first World Championship. Nicknamed "Machine Gun Lou" for his rapid fire style, Lou recorded a 150-ball run against Allen Hopkins in just 21 minutes in 1973. Butera has since won numerous titles.
===============
150 ball run 14.1 in 21 minutes - WOW!!! I am still trying to get my mind around this. I wonder if this includes racking time in it????

I play all the time with a real fast player that is real good, a lefty, like Luc Salvas is. Anyone got some good stories about Lou?
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YES! It does include racking time. Lou was one of a kind. Although Luc plays as fast, he is not a match for Lou Butera in his prime. No one could run balls like Lou back then. In the 1970's Lou would challenge anyone (Mizerak included) to play a long match, like 1,500 points.

And Miz is tha only player who would have a chance. Not Kelly, not Red, not Ervolino, not Rempe, not Hopkins, not the young Mike Sigel either. No one except maybe Miz. Lou could play 9-Ball too, although he played very few 9-Ball events. He would gamble at 9-Ball against good players for fairly low stakes, like $20 a game, and pulverize them. He beat many a road man at Marina Billiards and Chopstix in the Valley. It would take a player the speed of Jimmy Marino or Jim Reid to challenge him, and they didn't have to like it either.

Only a top player of that era like Richie or Kelly or Buddy could beat him at 9-Ball. Lou did not gamble high because he was working and raising a large family. But he was a fierce competitor, always hungry for the win.

In his prime, Lou was a better 14.1 player than ANYONE playing today. That includes Engert, Archer, Schmidt, Harriman et al. Sorry if I offend anyone, but that is my opinion. Watch this little clip on here of an aging Butera, years past his prime, and you'll get a glimpse of his ability. He simply did not miss balls in Straight Pool. If he could see it, it went in. The only thing that ever stopped him was getting tied up. And his safety game was stellar too.

The older Butera began to miss balls, too many balls. But by then, Sal "Son Of A Gun" Butera had taken over.
 
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I had idolized Lou for alot of years, the guy was a phenom. I finally met him about 8-10 years ago in Vegas. I went into Pool Sharks and played a little while hoping he would come in. After a couple hours, I figured it wouldnt happen, so I left to check out a billiard supply store that was nearby. Turns out Lou helped out there from time to time, and when I walked in..... there he stood.
Now for me, this was like meeting Jordan, or Montana..... Lou was and still is a personal hero. I looked at him and kind of squinted..... and all I could mutter was .......... "Lou ?" He looked at me a little confused and said do I know you? I said no, and told him of my "Machine Gun Lou" worship in as little of a stalker sounding way as possible. I realized some time later.... Pool legends from the 70s and 80s are probably not used to being recongnized on the street. :D
We talked for a little bit, about pool, and about action where I lived, I asked him about Vegas. I still kick myself in the ass that I did NOT get his autograph, one of these days, Ill fix that part.
Buteras game, as Jay stated above, was brutal for the opponent. Lou just ran out when there was a runout available..... and when there wasnt a runout.... he created one.
And on the 21 minute runout against Hopkins...... Cueball Kelly ref'ed the match, and swore up and down it was actually closer to 18-19 minutes.
Chuck
 
***Quote from Jay Helfert-In his prime, Lou was a better 14.1 player than ANYONE playing today. That includes Engert, Archer, Schmidt, Harriman et al. Sorry if I offend anyone, but that is my opinion. Watch this little clip on here of an aging Butera, years past his prime, and you'll get a glimpse of his ability. He simply did not miss balls in Straight Pool. If he could see it, it went in. The only thing that ever stopped him was getting tied up. And his safety game was stellar too.

Jay
I have alot of respect for you and your insightful & informative posts. BUT,how can you have the opinion that Butera is better at 14.1 than Engert and the curious "et al"? By curious, I'de like to know who those others would be that you think he would also best. If he didn't gamble much or high (according to your post) than his credentials & pedigree must have been on the tournament circuit. But all I know that he won was the 1973 World 14.1 Championship. A great feat, to be sure. But if he was so great, why didn't he win more? I have the odd hobby of collecting tournament results and historical info on the greats of pool, and Butera is a very good player. But his number one claim to fame is the speed at which he ran balls, not his great tournament record. When all time greats are spoken of, he is not mentioned by many. People know him because he had a different style. Engert has won too many European and German 14.1Championships to be so easily dismissed. You aren't bragging up Butera as much as you are diminishing the accomplishments of more proven champions.
I would be so curious as to SJM's opinion, as I trust his perspective on the all time pecking order.
 
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Terry Ardeno said:
***Quote from Jay Helfert-In his prime, Lou was a better 14.1 player than ANYONE playing today. That includes Engert, Archer, Schmidt, Harriman et al. Sorry if I offend anyone, but that is my opinion. Watch this little clip on here of an aging Butera, years past his prime, and you'll get a glimpse of his ability. He simply did not miss balls in Straight Pool. If he could see it, it went in. The only thing that ever stopped him was getting tied up. And his safety game was stellar too.

Jay
I have alot of respect for you and your insightful & informative posts. BUT,how can you have the opinion that Butera is better at 14.1 than Engert and the curious "et al"? By curious, I'de like to know who those others would be that you think he would also best. If he didn't gamble much or high (according to your post) than his credentials & pedigree must have been on the tournament circuit. But all I know that he won was the 1973 World 14.1 Championship. A great feat, to be sure. But if he was so great, why didn't he win more? I have the odd hobby of collecting tournament results and historical info on the greats of pool, and Butera is a very good player. But his number one claim to fame is the speed at which he ran balls, not his great tournament record. When all time greats are spoken of, he is not mentioned by many. People know him because he had a different style. Engert has won too many European and German 14.1Championships to be so easily dismissed. You aren't bragging up Butera as much as you are diminishing the accomplishments of more proven champions.
I would be so curious as to SJM's opinion, as I trust his perspective on the all time pecking order.
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The level of competition in 14.1 was much, much higher back then, with players like Lassiter, Crane, Mizerak, Hopkins, Rempe, Kelly, Breit, Diliberto, West and Ervolino in the field. Also McGown, Ray Martin (a great player), Jack Colavita and others who specialized in this game.

Thanks to Bob Jewett there is some renewed interest in 14.1. Butera was not the greatest player in a single short match to 150. Mizerak was. But in a long challenge match, no one could run more balls. He might hit you with a few runs of 150 to 250 back to back. I do know no one was anxious to meet him in a long match. With the exception of Miz, and he was not the favorite going to 1,000 or more.

No question there are great poolplayers today who can run zillions of balls. I just happen to think that the best 14.1 players are no longer playing, or are with us. In my mind there is no question that Lassiter played better than any of the current crop. As did Crane, Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Varner and Hopkins.

Better to put this question to some of these guys who played in that era. Straight Pool is not just about running balls, with ball in hand on the first break. It is about a complete understanding of the pack, knowledge of safety play and the ability to get out of your chair after an oppponents long run, and manufacture one of your own.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I have mine. I saw these guys play so I know what they could do. Mizerak for one had a far greater understanding of how to play 14.1 than anyone I see playing today. Simply put, he was a vastly superior player at this game.
 
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Just to add to my prevous post. I do not consider Lou Butera to be the best 14.1 player of his era by any means. He may even be the most questionable choice for the Hall Of Fame as well. He did not have a glossy tournament resume, although he always seemed to be in contention. He had many thirds, fourths and fifths in strong fields.

What he could do was run multiple racks and quickly too. If he was able to play a long challenge match, and stretch his legs out, he might run two to three hundred at any time. And all the top players were aware of this.

Once again, I say ask Allen H., Nick V., Mike S. or Jimmy Rempe. See what they have to say about Mr. Butera and his skill compared to todays 14.1 players. Or ask Ray Martin who played Lou many times. Just don't ask Lou. He will tell you he can still beat everyone. LOL
 
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As he should...........

jay helfert said:
J Just don't ask Lou. He will tell you he can still beat everyone. LOL
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The sign of a great athlete is the fine line between confident and cocky. As an Indiana boy, the great basketball players (Bird, Magic, Jordan,,,etc) Were confident that the next shot was going in even if they had missed the last 10.

If I am backing anyone, I want them to know the next shot is going in.

JMO,

Ken
 
jay helfert said:
Just to add to my prevous post. I do not consider Lou Butera to be the best 14.1 player of his era by any means. He may even be the most questionable choice for the Hall Of Fame as well. He did not have a glossy tournament resume, although he always seemed to be in contention. He had many thirds, fourths and fifths in strong fields.

What he could do was run multiple racks and quickly too. If he was able to play a long challenge match, and stretch his legs out, he might run two to three hundred at any time. And all the top players were aware of this.

Once again, I say ask Allen H. or Mike S. or Jimmy Rempe. See what they have to say about Mr. Butera and his skill compared to todays 14.1 players. Or ask Ray Martin who played Lou many times. Just don't ask Lou. He will tell you he can still beat everyone. LOL
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Jay
Thanks for your follow ups...I can better understand your reasoning & how you arrived at the conclusions you did.
Two more follow ups, if you could please...
First, how strong did Lassiter play 14.1? He is one of my all time favorirtes & I enjoy hearing other people's opinion on him. I'm under the strong impression that 14.1 was not his best game, even though he won 4 World Championships in that discipline.
Second, in my original post, I mentioned that I thought modern 14.1 specialists such as Engert are being too easily dismissed. I think he bodes well with the greats of the 70's-80's era not based on his high runs but rather on his tournament pedigree & numerous titles won. Your comments?
Thanks Jay!
 
jay helfert said:
The level of competition in 14.1 was much, much higher back then, with players like Lassiter, Crane, Mizerak, Hopkins, Rempe. Kelly, Breit, Ervolino in the field. Also McGown, Ray Martin (a great player), Jack Colavita and others who specialized in this game.....No question there are great poolplayers today who can run zillions of balls. I just happen to think that the best 14.1 players are no longer playing, or are with us. In my mind there is no question that Lassiter played better than any of the current crop. As did Crane, Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe and Hopkins....Better to put this question to some of these guys who played in that era. Straight Pool is not just about running balls, with ball in hand on the first break. It is about a complete understanding of the pack, knowledge of safety play and the ability to get out of your chair after an oppponents long run, and manufacture one of your own.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I have mine. I saw these guys play so I know what they could do. Mizerak for one had a far greater understanding of how to play 14.1 than anyone I see playing today. Simply put, he was a vastly superior player at this game.
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Fantastic post, Jay. As you know, I saw all those guys play, too, as I have attended eleven world straight pool championship events over the last 31 years.

Jay, I totally agree with you that straight pool today is a totally different game. In fact, I had a long chat about this with Mike Sigel in May, just two nights before the World Straight Pool Championships, and here's what I posted that night concerning that chat:

sjm said:
........Mike Sigel was eager to compare the playing conditions of today to those of yesteryear, especially in the presence of somebody he knew remembered the good old days well. I found we were on the exact same page on this subject. We agreed that with slower cloth and tighter pockets, straight pool is a completely different game, most notably when it came to breaking the pack at the beginning of each rack. We reflected on how much harder the break shot had to be hit back then and how, even then, only a few balls might come into play. We agreed that this made it critical to get tight shape on the break shots, and that the only way to do so was through exceptional pattern play. We also agreed that those having a more powerful stroke had a bigger edge back then relative to others, and that the switch to Simonis cloth greatly devalued this advantage. In fact, he made the truly memorable remark that once Simonis became the standard, "all of a sudden, there were a lot of guys who played like me."
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It was harder work to run a rack back then, and highly superior technique was required, and I concur with you that none of the players of today play straight pool the way the old masters did in terms of technique. I would not, however, concur with you that Mizerak played the table best. I feel Nick Varner and Dallas West played the table just as well.

Still, the power players always had a shot to win anything. Neither Lassiter nor Balsis played the table as well as the very best, but they could put you in the chair for a long, long time, much the way Hohmann, Engert and Schmidt can today. I'm more inclined to compare the stars of today to Lassiter and Balsis than to Mizerak, Crane, Varner, West or Sigel, who all had an encyclopedic comprehension of the game.

In defense of today's players, though, the conditions and equipment of today call for a different approach to the game, and some today's players have demonstrated that they can overpower the table, the way Tiger Woods overpowers a golf course.

Who played better, the old masters or the stars of today? Ultimately, I see no reason to answer the question, but I do agree with you that the old masters played with more knowledge and greater techincal accuracy than the players of today. Of course, they played much more straight pool back then.
 
Lou Lou

All I can add about Lou came from the time I was in LA in the '70s, along with every top player in the country who migrated to LA then. Lou ran a poolroom, I think it was Marina Billiards. All I ever heard, was that Lou spotted everybody playing just about everything in that joint. He didnt play high, but he was supporting ten kids. Most of us players just gave Lou a complete duck in that joint. He played too good and if you beat him you couldnt win a lot of money. I didnt even want to go over there and try to play him bank pool. I repeat, 90 per cent of the best players in the world were in LA at that time and only a few went and looked him up.

the Beard
 
another little nugget about Lou

freddy the beard said:
All I can add about Lou came from the time I was in LA in the '70s, along with every top player in the country who migrated to LA then. Lou ran a poolroom, I think it was Marina Billiards. All I ever heard, was that Lou spotted everybody playing just about everything in that joint. He didnt play high, but he was supporting ten kids. Most of us players just gave Lou a complete duck in that joint. He played too good and if you beat him you couldnt win a lot of money. I didnt even want to go over there and try to play him bank pool. I repeat, 90 per cent of the best players in the world were in LA at that time and only a few went and looked him up.

the Beard
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Fred, in an interview I did with Lou in 1980 he claimed that NO ONE had ever beaten him for the money at straight pool. He said that when Joe Balsis was playing his best, he beat Joe 12 out of 15 games playing to 150. He went on to say that he won the last 12 games in a row. Lou was also one of the few to be able to claim having won a round robin tournament with many of the top players of the day competing.
 
freddy the beard said:
All I can add about Lou came from the time I was in LA in the '70s, along with every top player in the country who migrated to LA then. Lou ran a poolroom, I think it was Marina Billiards. All I ever heard, was that Lou spotted everybody playing just about everything in that joint. He didnt play high, but he was supporting ten kids. Most of us players just gave Lou a complete duck in that joint. He played too good and if you beat him you couldnt win a lot of money. I didnt even want to go over there and try to play him bank pool. I repeat, 90 per cent of the best players in the world were in LA at that time and only a few went and looked him up.

the Beard
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Thanks for your input Freddie. We have a similar memory about Lou. All the players, and I do mean players, not shortstops, avoided getting involved with Lou at Marina Billiards. He wouldn't duck anyone who walked thru the door, and if you wanted to fade a guy who never missed for hours playing $20 9-Ball good luck to you. And you can forget about playing 14.1 with him. He would spot any player off the street 50 to 150 and had few takers.

He didn't really play One Hole, just not his game. But don't think for a second this guy wasn't a champion. He could go head to head with Richie (and did) or Denny Searcy. Not many would fade these guys, but Lou would do it in a hot second if they came to his room. I saw him play the Ring games at several big tourneys in L.A., and he was always one of the winners.
 
sjm said:
Fantastic post, Jay. As you know, I saw all those guys play, too, as I have attended eleven world straight pool championship events over the last 31 years.

Jay, I totally agree with you that straight pool today is a totally different game. In fact, I had a long chat about this with Mike Sigel in May, just two nights before the World Straight Pool Championships, and here's what I posted that night concerning that chat:



It was harder work to run a rack back then, and highly superior technique was required, and I concur with you that none of the players of today play straight pool the way the old masters did in terms of technique. I would not, however, concur with you that Mizerak played the table best. I feel Nick Varner and Dallas West played the table just as well.

Still, the power players always had a shot to win anything. Neither Lassiter nor Balsis played the table as well as the very best, but they could put you in the chair for a long, long time, much the way Hohmann, Engert and Schmidt can today. I'm more inclined to compare the stars of today to Lassiter and Balsis than to Mizerak, Crane, Varner, West or Sigel, who all had an encyclopedic comprehension of the game.

In defense of today's players, though, the conditions and equipment of today call for a different approach to the game, and some today's players have demonstrated that they can overpower the table, the way Tiger Woods overpowers a golf course.

Who played better, the old masters or the stars of today? Ultimately, I see no reason to answer the question, but I do agree with you that the old masters played with more knowledge and greater techincal accuracy than the players of today. Of course, they played much more straight pool back then.
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Thanks for mentioning Joe Balsis, Dallas West and Nick Varner. I shouldn't have overlooked them, because all three played great 14.1. And Lou Butera had to deal with all of them as well. Joe Balsis was one of the all time greats, right there with Lassiter in the 60's. Dallas West played all games well but seemed to never quite get over the hump and win. He got many top five finishes but couldn't quite overcome the top guns of the 60's, 70's and 80's. Nick is right there with Sigel, Miz, Allen and Rempe for the best players of his generation. And Danny Diliberto is one more top 14.1 player from that era. A career top ten player at the game.
 
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To all of you very knowledgeable gentlemen who have replied to this thread I just wanted to say thanks. As a straight pool fiend and as someone with a thirst for history it is threads like this that keep me coming back for more. I was just thinking the other day about how different straight pool is technique-wise than it was back in pools golden age, and it was nice to read about it.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
Jay
Thanks for your follow ups...I can better understand your reasoning & how you arrived at the conclusions you did.
Two more follow ups, if you could please...
First, how strong did Lassiter play 14.1? He is one of my all time favorirtes & I enjoy hearing other people's opinion on him. I'm under the strong impression that 14.1 was not his best game, even though he won 4 World Championships in that discipline.
Second, in my original post, I mentioned that I thought modern 14.1 specialists such as Engert are being too easily dismissed. I think he bodes well with the greats of the 70's-80's era not based on his high runs but rather on his tournament pedigree & numerous titles won. Your comments?
Thanks Jay!
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Lassiter was one of the best 14.1 players in an era of many great players. His competition included Crane, Balsis, Caras, Cranfield, Jimmy Moore and other good ones. He won more Straight Pool divisions than anyone else at Johnston City and the Stardust.

What I recall most vividly about Luther is that he seemed to always run 90+ balls in every match. And these matches were to 125, not 150. When you're hitting your opponent with a 96 or 101 or 92 in every match, it is a little tough to overcome. And most players couldn't and didn't.

Luther played in a few of the World Championships dating back to the 50's and always did well, but rarely won against all the above guys in the round robin events that were popular then. I would have to rate him under Caras or Crane and about even with Balsis. I'm sure he had several top three finishes and won a couple also. Shamos should have all the records.

Luther was not the 14.1 master like Crane and Caras, but he was a great pocketer of balls and handled the cue ball like Efren. His skill was forged in money matches across America, so he had no fear. The greatest players of the modern era would have not enjoyed battling Luther Lassiter on slow cloth. He might have tortured a few of them. The youthful Hall, Rempe, Mizerak and Hopkins gave deference to the old master.

Luther was the one who Steve had to get by to win the 14.1 titles in the early 70's. After he did that, Steve was now considered the best player in the world.
 
Thank you for all the knowledgable posts, they make me wished I was borned many years ago.:confused:

Would be a real treat to see these great players and great runs live...

Richard
 
My Lou Butera story

I've told this story before, but it's been awhile, so what the heck...

In December of 2005, I drove to Orlando, Florida to watch the IPT King of the Hill event. I decided before I left Houston that I was gonna try to get some signatures since almost every Hall of Famer was suppose to play.

I had a cue ball I intended to have all of the Hall of Famers sign and several had already signed when I got the opportunity to ask Mr. Butera. I approached and politely asked for his signature. He took the cue ball from me and moved it around in his hands, inspecting the signatures already on it. He asked me "You haven't got Ewa to sign it yet?" I said "No. I haven't seen her in the arena yet." At this point he gives the ball back to me and tells me to go get her signature on the cue ball first and then bring it back to him afterwards. Puzzled, I said O.K. and turned and walked away.

Ewa wasn't playing yet so she didn't show up for an hour or so. Anyway, she finally made her appearance and I saw my chance. She seemed like a really happy person. I don't think she stopped smiling the whole time I saw her. She gladly signed the ball and even offered to sign an old copy of Pool and Billiards for Dummies my girlfriend had on her.:)

About thirty minutes later, I saw Mr. Butera and immediately went up to him and showed him Ewa had signed the ball. The side of his smile lifted and he took the Sharpie out of my hand and signed the ball.

It wasn't until I had the ball back in my hand that I noticed he had signed directly above Ewa's signature. He looked at me and told me that that was the only way he was ever gonna be able to get on top of her.

I almost fell over laughing.;)
 
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