Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

[JCIN]

I think this is the cart before the horse, but anywhos, could you please explain why this is so important in the first place to Joe Average Pool Player, whose monies are being diverted to send a handful of American pros to, let's say, China. What benefit will they ever see?

Lou Figueroa

The idea is that the USAPL takes a small piece of revenue and puts it in a pro fund. As the league grows the fund grows.More players...more money...more events...more options. Self sustaining. It also would provide something pool doesnt have here and that is a path for someone to go from junior player to pro player.

If you have a solid funded pro organization with events and a structure for sending players to world championships it suddenly becomes a little more appealing for people who want to try that path. The APA could do the same thing next week and change pro pool in America forever. The thing is they could care less about the pro's.

Thats the whole point of contention in the league supported pro model: If you dont care about the pro game or growing it you probably dont see why a league should support it. If you think their should be a self funded pro tour for players to aspire to and help grow to the point where they can make a living wage then the league supported pro tour makes a lot of sense.

The problem with the league supported tour is it will take current pro players to get on board and work. Not just show up and play for added money. I dont have much hope for that truthfully.

 

[iba7467]

The problem with the league supported tour is it will take current pro players to get on board and work. Not just show up and play for added money. I dont have much hope for that truthfully.

That is it exactly Justin. I have said a number of times that the reason pro pool doesn't prosper is the players only look for the quick buck. I would propose a tournament network where only 1/2 the money was paid and the remaining half put towards a legitimate national tournament program. The problem is that players would never go for it. Forget a chance for 20 different players to make $150,000 per year, they all want a $5,000 payday immediately.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I really think the sport desperately needs a MARKETING company!!!!

They need to get the sport cleaned up and give it some SEX appeal. Place some adds in the WOMENS magazines and have the top PRO Players in their best shirt, Tie and vest and dress attire and a couple great shots of the SEXY black widow Jeanette Lee beside them and you have a formula for some success!!!!

I would go even further and make the spectators dress as well and give it the feel of a night at the theater or a night at the opera. Bottom line is make it fun for the WOMEN and they will DRAG the men to the events if they think it is HIGH SOCIETY!!!!!

The sport was big with Weenie Beenies generation and the Rat Pack and the photos of the Willie Mosconi ERA was real HIGH SOCIETY!!!!

Now its WIFE BEATERS torn t-shirts with beer stains and etc.


I would even go as far as having it In the Kenndy Center or other glamourous location!!!

I would add advertisements and articles in GQ magazine, Vogue, Esquire, RollingStone, Playboy & etc!!!!

KD

 

[JAM]

I really think the sport desperately needs a MARKETING company!!!!

They need to get the sport cleaned up and give it some SEX appeal. Place some adds in the WOMENS magazines and have the top PRO Players in their best shirt, Tie and vest and dress attire and a couple great shots of the SEXY black widow Jeanette Lee beside them and you have a formula for some success!!!!

I would go even further and make the spectators dress as well and give it the feel of a night at the theater or a night at the opera. Bottom line is make it fun for the WOMEN and they will DRAG the men to the events if they think it is HIGH SOCIETY!!!!!

The sport was big with Weenie Beenies generation and the Rat Pack and the photos of the Willie Mosconi ERA was real HIGH SOCIETY!!!!

Now its WIFE BEATERS torn t-shirts with beer stains and etc.


I would even go as far as having it In the Kenndy Center or other glamourous location!!!
KD

Convention Center would suffice as well, and there's plenty of downtown hotels in the vicinity.

 

[JCIN]

I really think the sport desperately needs a MARKETING company!!!!

They need to get the sport cleaned up and give it some SEX appeal. Place some adds in the WOMENS magazines and have the top PRO Players in their best shirt, Tie and vest and dress attire and a couple great shots of the SEXY black widow Jeanette Lee beside them and you have a formula for some success!!!!

I would go even further and make the spectators dress as well and give it the feel of a night at the theater or a night at the opera. Bottom line is make it fun for the WOMEN and they will DRAG the men to the events if they think it is HIGH SOCIETY!!!!!

The sport was big with Weenie Beenies generation and the Rat Pack and the photos of the Willie Mosconi ERA was real HIGH SOCIETY!!!!

Now its WIFE BEATERS torn t-shirts with beer stains and etc.


I would even go as far as having it In the Kenndy Center or other glamourous location!!!
KD

There is a lot to what you say.

You go to Amsterdam Billiards or Society Billiards in NYC and you see my idea of what a pool room should be. Its a completely different atmosphere and feeling from the majority of other pool rooms.

 

[jason]

The problem with the league supported tour is it will take current pro players to get on board and work. Not just show up and play for added money. I dont have much hope for that truthfully.

Why should we (i.e. league players) want support a pro-tour with our money?
Why should we (i.e. pool fans) want to support a pro-tour for a bunch of dumping (i.e.see vegas C of C) pre-madonnas?
Why should we (i.e. pool fans) want to support a pro-tour where certain players have refused to play (i.e. Earl) and scared away sponsors (i.e. Camel tour)?
Why should we (i.e. anyone) want to help someone who doesn't want to help themselves?

I propose a radically new idea. Screw all current pros who don't want to be part of a pro-tour organized by BCAP.

Start with a fresh new "pro" or "masters level" tour from the available resources now. Anyone who whats to be part of the BCA Pro Tour must come up through the ranks like everyone else. Sure it will be a weaker field in the beginning, but we are not talking about a quick fix. There would probably have to be special rules for Europe and Asia unless the BCA expanded there, but so what? Find an organization equivalent in those markets.

 

[lfigueroa]

The idea is that the USAPL takes a small piece of revenue and puts it in a pro fund. As the league grows the fund grows.More players...more money...more events...more options. Self sustaining. It also would provide something pool doesnt have here and that is a path for someone to go from junior player to pro player.

If you have a solid funded pro organization with events and a structure for sending players to world championships it suddenly becomes a little more appealing for people who want to try that path. The APA could do the same thing next week and change pro pool in America forever. The thing is they could care less about the pro's.

Thats the whole point of contention in the league supported pro model: If you dont care about the pro game or growing it you probably dont see why a league should support it. If you think their should be a self funded pro tour for players to aspire to and help grow to the point where they can make a living wage then the league supported pro tour makes a lot of sense.

The problem with the league supported tour is it will take current pro players to get on board and work. Not just show up and play for added money. I dont have much hope for that truthfully.

Well, that's certainly a little different and makes more sense than just saying you want to support sending pros overseas to compete. I would hope, however, that all this is not a one-way street, with the pros getting all the benefit without some form of return to the average Joe.

Lou Figueroa
hopin'

 

[sjm]

Why should we (i.e. league players) want support a pro-tour with our money?
Why should we (i.e. pool fans) want to support a pro-tour for a bunch of dumping (i.e.see vegas C of C) pre-madonnas?
Why should we (i.e. pool fans) want to support a pro-tour where certain players have refused to play (i.e. Earl) and scared away sponsors (i.e. Camel tour)?
Why should we (i.e. anyone) want to help someone who doesn't want to help themselves?

I propose a radically new idea. Screw all current pros who don't want to be part of a pro-tour organized by BCAP.

Start with a fresh new "pro" or "masters level" tour from the available resources now. Anyone who whats to be part of the BCA Pro Tour must come up through the ranks like everyone else. Sure it will be a weaker field in the beginning, but we are not talking about a quick fix. There would probably have to be special rules for Europe and Asia unless the BCA expanded there, but so what? Find an organization equivalent in those markets.

Actually, your post is important because I think the pros in America need to know that many league players don't see any relationship at all between the pro and amateur ranks of the game. Your post make a lot of sense.

PS All eight players that competed in the 1991 International Challenge of Champions at the Mirage, for the most part, have retired from competition. As embarrassing to the sport as the dump in the final was, it is not fair to pin this incident on the pro players of today, very few of whom were pros in 1991.

 

[K.Mcphee]

Nobody here knows who Pepsi paid money too . Mostly likely it was divided by several entities . The ESPN Asian sports network , Barry Berman , i'd guess Accu-Stats got a cut , or at least some video reproduction rights , and maybe someone else . First place money was reduced , so where was the benefit?

Promoters aren't doing things for fun , they want to make money , and some while promoting something they enjoy. I don't see any big tournaments in Europe , and the few that are there are funded by internet poker sites. What about they European players that live here ?

Guess Europe is in the same boat .

Brilliant. I would really like to know how much support we got from our sponsors and how much of it went to the players and promoters. This information may help with details for future organizing of events. If we get the numbers right, we can bring it and show it to prospective sponsors.

The move to Rio this year is also really going to help pool. What lacks is pools genuinely entertaining aspects not being properly promoted.

 

[K.Mcphee]

Jb - very true indeed. I have offered to cycle ( i aint fit trust me, but i will do it) from nyc to la to raise money to start an academy. It will also attract media attention to the game and who knows we may raise enough to help the game start its grass roots off. i cant do it on my own and would need people willing to help out, is anyone in?

This event would raise awareness in the media and raise the funds needed.

lee

Are you serious? How long will this take and how much money will it produce?

 

[lee brett]

Are you serious? How long will this take and how much money will it produce?

very serious, seen a few programs in the uk very similar and they was very inspiring. Not sure how long it would take or how much to get started etc. But if people come on board and we work a plan out, we can all make this happen..

 

[lee brett]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Man-Who-Cycled-Americas/dp/0593066987/ref=pd_sim_b_1/277-7262511-2973240

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/cyclingtheamericas/

im going to try and contact him for advice on how to do it, the cost etc

 

[lfigueroa]

very serious, seen a few programs in the uk very similar and they was very inspiring. Not sure how long it would take or how much to get started etc. But if people come on board and we work a plan out, we can all make this happen..

I'm sorry if I rain on your parade, but *someone* has to come out and say it and clue you in: this is not going to fly here.

There are so many people hurting in the good ole USA right now, as I'm sure there are in your neck of the woods, that a charity drive for pool, of all things, is DOA.

Having said that: knock yourself out, good luck and best wishes. But pool is so far down the list... consider helping out the people in Joplin, MO instead.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Casual Observer]

Just watched the video on Youtube. A few observations:
1) On one hand, Mark laments the state of the industry, which EVERYONE acknowledges is a small one, then on the other hand, he sets out to question the integrity/motivations of several of its most influential figures?
2) He talked at length about how many pro organizations have come and gone, but thinks that league players should help fund travel for pros, many of whom are want to even sign an autograph?
3) There will NEVER be an industry sponsor of any material significance. Anhueser sponsored APA (NOT the industry) because they thought they could target market and, therefore, invest appropriately. Eventually, they stopped largely based on the lack of sponsor-specific loyalty that could be garnered from pool players. No company will piss away money on the industry as a whole when there is simply NO way (nor intent) to organize it ala the PGA, PBA, et. al. Why the hell would they work with THIS industry given the sorry state it's in despite having the advantage of having existed many decades longer than most any other sport?
4) I've known Mark for many years. He surely loves the sport, but he should remember that he's not the only one who does. And his recent tendency (especially the past couple years) of openly and publicly criticizing industry leaders will surely come back to haunt him if he doesn't stop. He’s a better man than that.

 

[Mark Griffin]

I encourage anyone that wants to discuss what I have said to email me and we will get together and discuss them.

It is too lengthy to address everything in written form in a forum.

Sometimes what I said is not what you heard - and sometimes what I said is not what I meant!

After reading some of these posts, I realize my concepts (in some areas) did not get through. I will try again later.


To Casual Observer:
'He talked at length about how many pro organizations have come and gone, but thinks that league players should help fund travel for pros, many of whom are want to even sign an autograph?'

You have combined two thoughts into one sentence. There have been many pro organizations (most run by pros) that have come and gone.

That is not exactly what I said. I think for the industry to grow, there needs to be a relationship with the amateurs and the pros. If some pros are not willing to get involved, then they will not be getting support from the amateurs either. Any funds are coming out of 'our end' of things - and the participating amateurs will also gain something.

Both skill levels really do need each other.

I encourage you to contact me. markg@playcsipool.com

Mark Griffin

 

[justnum]

This is a big challenge.

I think Mark Griffin's idea of diverting some funds raised through amateur pool to finance greater participation of top American pros in overseas events is a good first step. I think this is the minimum we must do, for there is a danger that American poolplayers would, otherwise, lose visibility on the world pool stage.

Part of the solution may happen by itself. Pool is growing in Asia, and as the Chinese presence in pro pool grows quickly, the Asian tournament scene might prove far more lucrative than it is today. If Asian prize funds were to grow to the point that an American would need only finish 25th to cover all expenses, it would lead to far greater participation among America's top pros. Yes, the growth in pool in Asia, oddly enough, is to the advantage of America's top pros, and could possibl make them more determined to further develop and refine their skills.

.... but if the game's economics remain unaltered globally, it's hard to see many American pros not named Shane busting their butts to reach a higher level of performance.

The challenge the male pros, American and globally, have been trying to address is the most important one. Having some goto guy with big ideas and big answers is what Kevin Trudeau was, he was the man with all the answers. Sadly it didn't work out. Sure there are some wannabes imitating Trudeau-ness, which is transparent enough. But the key failure in the past is pool players have been too trusting of business people. They think business people will deliver what they say, and don't plan for what happens when they mess up.

Seeing male pool pros educate themselves on the business aspects of their industry is the best thing that can happen right now. Not some fancy pool production, not some podcast, or some pay per event. Just some good old fashion do it yourself type work.

How often do pros hear from business people what should've happened or what went wrong? At least if the pros do the work, they don't have to put up with the BS. It has been generous of them to let business people stay involved, but the market is showing that now might not be a good time for middle management. The crowds are easy enough to manage. Dragon Promotions seems to be doing well enough without dedicated business support staff. Players could take on a few more responsibilities without being overwhelmed. It isn't like they have to schedule security to get in and out of buildings. It is more routine work like when is a good time to schedule another event and stuff.

 

[Celtic]

I encourage anyone that wants to discuss what I have said to email me and we will get together and discuss them.

Mark Griffin

No email, I have pretty consise points.

You said "if soandso gave me 1.5 million dollars I would create a pro tour and the pro's would not be playing bonus ball, they would be playing 10-ball"

I gotta say Mark, rotational pool is tired, it is old, it is boring due to it's limited choices and lack of ingenuity. 8-ball on a tight table such as that 4 1/8th pocket table that was sitting behind you is something that one of you guys NEED to try out. I mean lets face it, your entire playerbase in your leagues are NOT playing 10-ball, they know 8-ball, they like 8-ball, they understand 8-ball, give them 8-ball on a tight cut 9-foot and see how the interest is.

And you want to initially get that interest? Put the Grand Masters singles and teams events on 9-foots with tables cut exactly like those Fatboy Rails and put those tables in the main room so people can at least initially watch it free and see the potential of that game. Give the amature players a chance to shoot on those tables with those pockets so they understand what the pro's are actually doing.

If you ever get a professional tour going your very own league system is the PERFECT jumping off point for the professional tour if it is 8-ball. People work their way through the ranks of the BCAPL 8-ball league system, they get to the top of the amature ranks, they win a Natioanal championship in Vegas, and they get their pro tour card to play pro 8-ball on the 9-foots. It makes so much sense for the amature 8-ball to lead into the professional ranks IF and only IF the pro game is 8-ball. And 8-ball on the 9-foots with 4 1/8th inch pockets? That game is going to test pro players.

Bonus ball? forget it. We have the game that blends strategy, offense, defense, familiarity to the amature players and general public, 8-ball is the clear and obvious choice for the professional game. The problem that it has always had is the equipment, the bar box is not and has never been the proper table for proffesional pool, it is like putting professional golfers onto a par 3 exec course and expecting the sport to take off.

If someone gave me 1.5 million dollars? Get a deal with Diamond, put professional pool and ONLY professional pool on the new Diamond 10-foot tables with pockets cut the exact same size as the Fatboy rails and make the game 8-ball. It is going to be a HARD game. It is going to encourage the BIG break and completely do away with the soft break. It is going to be a known game for the general public and have extreme familiarity with amature players so that the disconnect that exists is reduced. People in the pub watching pool on TV now actually know the game being played and they can relate to it.

Rotation pool had 20+ years to prove itself, it has failed. In the entire time that rotation pool has been the main game at the professional ranks pool has consistently fallen in popularity. 8-ball has been THE most popular game for decades, it is what almost all amature players play, it is what almost all of the general public play, it is the best game for the pros to play as long as it is done on the proper equipment which requires a 9-foot or better yet 10-foot and tight cut pockets akin to the Fatboy rails.

It is time to test 8-ball properly at the pro ranks on proper tables, the IPT as much as it collapsed showed one thing, 8-ball on those tables made the top players generally show up and win the matches. 8-ball needs a honest chance to prove itself beyond a flash in the pan tour such as the IPT which failed not because of the game but because they reached way too far and did not do what it took to get the game actually out there.

 

[sjm]

....the key failure in the past is pool players have been too trusting of business people. They think business people will deliver what they say, and don't plan for what happens when they mess up.

This is basically the stance of the ABP, a stance that many promoters and patrons find insulting. This stance led to an attempt by the players to dictate to event entrepreneurs. This is not how life works. Unless you are the one taking the risks associated with the prodcution of events (like the WPBA, for example), you don't get to call all the shots.

....
Dragon Promotions seems to be doing well enough without dedicated business support staff.

To my knowledge, this is false. Dragon has middle management and support staff that can be reached virtually any day of the year. Cindy Lee is one of the sharpest businesswomen you will meet.

As Mark Griffin accurately noted, players organizations in which the players produced their own events have a poor track record, citing UPA and PPPA.

The only really lucrative men's tour that had a long life in the past 25 years of was Don Mackey's PBT. Although we tend to recall the last year of two of the PBT in which their were unscrupulous dealing, the fact remains that the tour offered very good prize money. In 1998, the PBT has sixteen events with each of them having $100,000 added.

 

[sjm]

...I gotta say Mark, rotational pool is tired, it is old, it is boring due to it's limited choices and lack of ingenuity. 8-ball on a tight table such as that 4 1/8th pocket table that was sitting behind you is something that one of you guys NEED to try out. I mean lets face it, your entire playerbase in your leagues are NOT playing 10-ball, they know 8-ball, they like 8-ball, they understand 8-ball, give them 8-ball on a tight cut 9-foot and see how the interest is.

And you want to initially get that interest? Put the Grand Masters singles and teams events on 9-foots with tables cut exactly like those Fatboy Rails and put those tables in the main room so people can at least initially watch it free and see the potential of that game. Give the amature players a chance to shoot on those tables with those pockets so they understand what the pro's are actually doing.

If you ever get a professional tour going your very own league system is the PERFECT jumping off point for the professional tour if it is 8-ball. People work their way through the ranks of the BCAPL 8-ball league system, they get to the top of the amature ranks, they win a Natioanal championship in Vegas, and they get their pro tour card to play pro 8-ball on the 9-foots. It makes so much sense for the amature 8-ball to lead into the professional ranks IF and only IF the pro game is 8-ball. And 8-ball on the 9-foots with 4 1/8th inch pockets? That game is going to test pro players.

Bonus ball? forget it. We have the game that blends strategy, offense, defense, familiarity to the amature players and general public, 8-ball is the clear and obvious choice for the professional game. The problem that it has always had is the equipment, the bar box is not and has never been the proper table for proffesional pool, it is like putting professional golfers onto a par 3 exec course and expecting the sport to take off.

If someone gave me 1.5 million dollars? Get a deal with Diamond, put professional pool and ONLY professional pool on the new Diamond 10-foot tables with pockets cut the exact same size as the Fatboy rails and make the game 8-ball. It is going to be a HARD game. It is going to encourage the BIG break and completely do away with the soft break. It is going to be a known game for the general public and have extreme familiarity with amature players so that the disconnect that exists is reduced. People in the pub watching pool on TV now actually know the game being played and they can relate to it.

Rotation pool had 20+ years to prove itself, it has failed. In the entire time that rotation pool has been the main game at the professional ranks pool has consistently fallen in popularity. 8-ball has been THE most popular game for decades, it is what almost all amature players play, it is what almost all of the general public play, it is the best game for the pros to play as long as it is done on the proper equipment which requires a 9-foot or better yet 10-foot and tight cut pockets akin to the Fatboy rails.

It is time to test 8-ball properly at the pro ranks on proper tables, the IPT as much as it collapsed showed one thing, 8-ball on those tables made the top players generally show up and win the matches. 8-ball needs a honest chance to prove itself beyond a flash in the pan tour such as the IPT which failed not because of the game but because they reached way too far and did not do what it took to get the game actually out there.

This is a solid post and I agree with it in principle. Trudeau had it right with 8-ball, and his overall failure had little to do with the fact that he chose 8-ball. As you say, pros should play the game that amateurs play if a better connect between amateurs and pros is to be achieved.

Like Mark, I wish the guys at Bonus Ball good luck with their venture, but I think that if you take strategy out of the game, it will turn many off. Bonus ball is total offense, and I fear that it will not capture the imagination of many pool players.

Yes, 8-ball is what we need to be playing

 

[justnum]

This is basically the stance of the ABP, a stance that many promoters and patrons find insulting. This stance led to an attempt by the players to dictate to event entrepreneurs. This is not how life works. Unless you are the one taking the risks associated with the prodcution of events (like the WPBA, for example), you don't get to call all the shots.

Whether or not the players giving input to new billiard industry members is insulting or not is not my interest. The more info a business has the better. If you think that information like a tournament format, isn't helpful. That is ignoring your best customers and their demands, the pool players. Will all of their suggestions be helpful or easy to implement, maybe or maybe not. But it helps to have a discussion going. The ABP is the driving force that attracted Pepsi into the billiards community, because of the ABP big fight it motivated Barry to practice better business habits.

To my knowledge, this is false. Dragon has middle management and support staff that can be reached virtually any day of the year. Cindy Lee is one of the sharpest businesswomen you will meet.

As Mark Griffin accurately noted, players organizations in which the players produced their own events have a poor track record, citing UPA and PPPA.

The only really lucrative men's tour that had a long life in the past 25 years of was Don Mackey's PBT. Although we tend to recall the last year of two of the PBT in which their were unscrupulous dealing, the fact remains that the tour offered very good prize money. In 1998, the PBT has sixteen events with each of them having $100,000 added.

Players that know what failure is, is part of developing good business sense. It is often a startup will have great ideas, but the reality of the situation is what they don't know, because they lack experience. Seems most players have grinded the circuit enough to make better educated decisions. But if you feel now is the time to find the next Kevin Trudeau than hey, that is one way to go.

The next level for a pool player is be a champ, or get involved in ownership. Run events, do tours, or grow the competition. The SBE, predator and dragon are all examples of how pool players can stay involved in their industry without having to deal with business people that can't deliver what they say, the tourney grind.

At the end of the day, those pool players have to make the best career decisions for themselves. If they think someone else can figure out for them, sure go for it. But unless they try they can never know what they could've done.