jjinfla said:
JJ.. I believe that that only involves single/married people. Not corporations....Here in NY.. NYRA is going to file for reorganization bankruptcy.....I just see the head of NYRA going to any classes.......mike
Message from Allen Hopkins
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
JJ.. I believe that that only involves single/married people. Not corporations....Here in NY.. NYRA is going to file for reorganization bankruptcy.....I just see the head of NYRA going to any classes.......mike
cueball1950...In your scenario, there SHOULD be a written contract between the players and the IPT. God only knows what it will provide for but CERTAINLY a Release from any obligation beyond the 1/3 payments.
If any player signs a deal wherein they waive their right to sue for the other 2/3s then quite frankly, they would get what they deserve for doing such a foolish thing.
Regards,
Jim
If any player signs a deal wherein they waive their right to sue for the other 2/3s then quite frankly, they would get what they deserve for doing such a foolish thing.
Regards,
Jim
Well, now we are at a point where I have to get personal. Allen Hopkins is my friend. I have know him for two decades. He has nothing but the players best interests at heart. While his idea of their best interests may not be the same as other folks it still does not change the fact that Allen is a straight up guy.
One thing that has been overlooked throughout the analysis of Allen's statement is that he says, "it's not Kevin's fault, the players were not organized anyway."
This statement right there tells you that Allen's sentiment lays with the players. He knows the value of organization and is simply stating for the record that Kevin Trudeau got a free pass to screw up because no held him accountable beforehand for his statements.
Allen is entitled to hs opinion of whether to give Trudeau more time before instigating legal action. Many don't agree with him and that's fine. However, his opinion should be given proper consideration simply because of the source. Allen has given us the greatest expo in pool. His expo has allowed a lot of entrepeneurs to earn signifigant income and get established in the billiard industry. He is one of the few who have managed to carve out a career in the billiard industry beside his playing career.
No one is immune to bad decisions or unpopular opinions. Some folks should however be accorded some amount of respect for what they have accomplished, especially if others are to eternally condemned for the things they have done as well.
One thing that has been overlooked throughout the analysis of Allen's statement is that he says, "it's not Kevin's fault, the players were not organized anyway."
This statement right there tells you that Allen's sentiment lays with the players. He knows the value of organization and is simply stating for the record that Kevin Trudeau got a free pass to screw up because no held him accountable beforehand for his statements.
Allen is entitled to hs opinion of whether to give Trudeau more time before instigating legal action. Many don't agree with him and that's fine. However, his opinion should be given proper consideration simply because of the source. Allen has given us the greatest expo in pool. His expo has allowed a lot of entrepeneurs to earn signifigant income and get established in the billiard industry. He is one of the few who have managed to carve out a career in the billiard industry beside his playing career.
No one is immune to bad decisions or unpopular opinions. Some folks should however be accorded some amount of respect for what they have accomplished, especially if others are to eternally condemned for the things they have done as well.
Roadie said:
Roadie, now is certainly not the time to get personal, it is the time to remain objective and rational.
The statement by Mr. Hopkins, "it's not KT's fault, the players were not organized anyway" was not overlooked, in fact, it was underscored and is an indictment of the players. Allen exonerates KT of any and all responsibility, and places fault at the doorstep of the players.
No one is diminishing Mr. Hopkin's past accomplishments, but they have no bearing whatsoever on this current IPT issue,
When Mr. Hopkins produces a law degree with years of contract dispute litagation experience, maybe then his advice to the players on how to protect their legal rights to pursue recovery of their debts and losses will warrant more consideration.
Jim
Blue_chalk
Registered
Isn't it funny how someone makes a statement on an internet forum and it gets analyzed inside-out upside-down round-and-round?
Basically, IMHO all he is saying is to not make any rash decisions. My guess is that he has either read or heard about all the things on here. It's run the gambit. From class action lawsuits to physically injuring KT.
When you don't have enough information...all you can do is try to fill in the gaps. There has been a lot of that on this forum. A lot of the stuff that has been bandied about is based on rumor and guessing. Just because some of it has proven true doesn't mean it is ALL true.
I do not see a wholesale endorsement of KT by Allen. I see him suggesting people take a breath and look at the larger picture.
Basically, IMHO all he is saying is to not make any rash decisions. My guess is that he has either read or heard about all the things on here. It's run the gambit. From class action lawsuits to physically injuring KT.
When you don't have enough information...all you can do is try to fill in the gaps. There has been a lot of that on this forum. A lot of the stuff that has been bandied about is based on rumor and guessing. Just because some of it has proven true doesn't mean it is ALL true.
I do not see a wholesale endorsement of KT by Allen. I see him suggesting people take a breath and look at the larger picture.
Roadie...As you know, I have often commented very respectfully about your posts...and I admire your coming to the defense of a friend...very admirable.
But assuming that the words posted were an exact version of what AH asked to have posted, then he has to live with what he said.
Without question...he is defending the indefensible. You approve of his comment about the train wreck not being all KT's fault because the players were not organized. But that suggests that it is OK to screw a group of people simply because they are not organized.
I think it is clear that if the players were "organized" in the same manner of a unified power base as, say, the NFL or the PGA...the IPT Tour would never have come into being in the first place because those governing bodies would NEVER have sanctioned the IPT events without money good guarantees of payment for EACH event...BEFORE the players left their front doors. They would NOT have accepted the promises of a convicted felon...known liar and cheat.
Then AH referred for the umpteenth time (as other KT apologists have) that KT has actually paid out more money than anyone else. OK, but it is also true that he....SO FAR...has SCREWED more pool players out of more money than anyone else in history...thereby setting a infamous record that will likely never be beaten.
Do we advise people to "calm down" about...say...the Zodiac Murderer because he helped some old lady across the street when he was in the Boy Scouts? (of course, I am exaggerating to make a point but you get the idea.).
Defending KT because he paid out a lot of money MUCH OF WHICH WAS SUCKERED OUT OF QUALIFIERS...INCLUDING FROM MY OWN POCKET...misses the point by a mile.
In addition, it has now been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that AT BEST...the IPT...under KT's personal instructions has LIED REPEATEDLY to all the players and sponsors and the rest of the world. There is simply no excuse for that part of the saga and it demeans anyone who would make excuses for that sort of behavior, in my personal opinion...especially someone who has MADE MONEY off of KT while a LOT of people have lost their A$$ES.
Let AH travel all over the U.S. and/or Europe trying to qualify at a cost, in some cases of $10-15,000.00. Odds are he would have a difficult time qualifing AT ALL...so he got his money "on a pass." (106th and 137th in Vegas and Reno). THAT IS NO DISRESPECT TO A GREAT CHAMPION or the other Hall of Famers who got invited and MORE POWER TO THEM...I THINK THAT WAS GREAT FOR THEM AND FOR THE GAME OF POOL...but time marches on for all of us.
But his last remark did it for me...in a negative sense.
<<I believe for any hope of pro players making serious money on a televised tour, we need to stick together and support KT and the IPT for the future of professional pool.>>
Stick with KT????? A felon...an acknowledged liar and cheat...an officially determined false advertiser praying on the desperation of sick and dying people who by his books hoping to save their lives???
If pro pool has to team up with such a low life...WHICH IT DOES NOT...then pro pool does not deserve to survive. But it DOES deserve to survive and HAS survived for a long time and WILL survive in the future and forever.
I wish there was more prize money for the pros LOTS MORE...but hey...the leading money winners on the male and female tours are not paupers. Combining prize money with endorsements and other related benefits of celebrity there are quite a few pros making a VERY comfortable living. AGAIN...DON'T JUMP DOWN MY THROAT...I WISH THAT ALL PROS MADE MILLIONS A YEAR... I'm just saying that pro pool is not the dead meat business that some seem to suggest that it is...and no one knows that better than AH who I hope, trust and pray has become wealthy from competing...commentating and event promotion.
He did it ALL (nearly) without Mr. Keven Trudeau...and to suggest...as he did...that pro pool needs the likes of Trudeau to have "any hope" of TV tour survival is a personal opinion he certainly is entitled to but I find it both wrong FACTUALLY and somewhat disturbing in its pandering to a cheater and liar such as Mr. Trudeau.
Finally, you are very correct that AH deserves TREMENDOUS credit for all he has done in his legendary career. I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that. I certainly don't. But everyone from pool pros to Presidents can and should be held accountable for EACH of their deeds and statements. After all, he caused his views to be published in a PUBLIC forum.
I think the criticism he has received so far has been pretty balanced and not generally mean-spirited or intended to trash his entire career. If he has a right to his opinions...which he does...then everyone else has the right to theirs as well...even if they are critical.
Again, I have been consistently impressed with your views and mostly supportive. But in this context, I think you have gone overboard...however admirably...in defense of your friend.
Instead of pandering for support for KT personally and the IPT, he should...in my personal opinion...be excercizing leadership to unite the players in the process of seeking JUSTICE for what WRONGS have been perpetrated.
Regards,
Jim
But assuming that the words posted were an exact version of what AH asked to have posted, then he has to live with what he said.
Without question...he is defending the indefensible. You approve of his comment about the train wreck not being all KT's fault because the players were not organized. But that suggests that it is OK to screw a group of people simply because they are not organized.
I think it is clear that if the players were "organized" in the same manner of a unified power base as, say, the NFL or the PGA...the IPT Tour would never have come into being in the first place because those governing bodies would NEVER have sanctioned the IPT events without money good guarantees of payment for EACH event...BEFORE the players left their front doors. They would NOT have accepted the promises of a convicted felon...known liar and cheat.
Then AH referred for the umpteenth time (as other KT apologists have) that KT has actually paid out more money than anyone else. OK, but it is also true that he....SO FAR...has SCREWED more pool players out of more money than anyone else in history...thereby setting a infamous record that will likely never be beaten.
Do we advise people to "calm down" about...say...the Zodiac Murderer because he helped some old lady across the street when he was in the Boy Scouts? (of course, I am exaggerating to make a point but you get the idea.).
Defending KT because he paid out a lot of money MUCH OF WHICH WAS SUCKERED OUT OF QUALIFIERS...INCLUDING FROM MY OWN POCKET...misses the point by a mile.
In addition, it has now been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that AT BEST...the IPT...under KT's personal instructions has LIED REPEATEDLY to all the players and sponsors and the rest of the world. There is simply no excuse for that part of the saga and it demeans anyone who would make excuses for that sort of behavior, in my personal opinion...especially someone who has MADE MONEY off of KT while a LOT of people have lost their A$$ES.
Let AH travel all over the U.S. and/or Europe trying to qualify at a cost, in some cases of $10-15,000.00. Odds are he would have a difficult time qualifing AT ALL...so he got his money "on a pass." (106th and 137th in Vegas and Reno). THAT IS NO DISRESPECT TO A GREAT CHAMPION or the other Hall of Famers who got invited and MORE POWER TO THEM...I THINK THAT WAS GREAT FOR THEM AND FOR THE GAME OF POOL...but time marches on for all of us.
But his last remark did it for me...in a negative sense.
<<I believe for any hope of pro players making serious money on a televised tour, we need to stick together and support KT and the IPT for the future of professional pool.>>
Stick with KT????? A felon...an acknowledged liar and cheat...an officially determined false advertiser praying on the desperation of sick and dying people who by his books hoping to save their lives???
If pro pool has to team up with such a low life...WHICH IT DOES NOT...then pro pool does not deserve to survive. But it DOES deserve to survive and HAS survived for a long time and WILL survive in the future and forever.
I wish there was more prize money for the pros LOTS MORE...but hey...the leading money winners on the male and female tours are not paupers. Combining prize money with endorsements and other related benefits of celebrity there are quite a few pros making a VERY comfortable living. AGAIN...DON'T JUMP DOWN MY THROAT...I WISH THAT ALL PROS MADE MILLIONS A YEAR... I'm just saying that pro pool is not the dead meat business that some seem to suggest that it is...and no one knows that better than AH who I hope, trust and pray has become wealthy from competing...commentating and event promotion.
He did it ALL (nearly) without Mr. Keven Trudeau...and to suggest...as he did...that pro pool needs the likes of Trudeau to have "any hope" of TV tour survival is a personal opinion he certainly is entitled to but I find it both wrong FACTUALLY and somewhat disturbing in its pandering to a cheater and liar such as Mr. Trudeau.
Finally, you are very correct that AH deserves TREMENDOUS credit for all he has done in his legendary career. I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that. I certainly don't. But everyone from pool pros to Presidents can and should be held accountable for EACH of their deeds and statements. After all, he caused his views to be published in a PUBLIC forum.
I think the criticism he has received so far has been pretty balanced and not generally mean-spirited or intended to trash his entire career. If he has a right to his opinions...which he does...then everyone else has the right to theirs as well...even if they are critical.
Again, I have been consistently impressed with your views and mostly supportive. But in this context, I think you have gone overboard...however admirably...in defense of your friend.
Instead of pandering for support for KT personally and the IPT, he should...in my personal opinion...be excercizing leadership to unite the players in the process of seeking JUSTICE for what WRONGS have been perpetrated.
Regards,
Jim
jjinfla said:
If that's the case, then it won't be 1/3. It will be 1/9 because the bankruptcy will come after the first payments are made. If I were owed $5000 (the minimum here), accepting $555 - which is far less than it would have cost me to play in the event to begin with - would be my absolute last option. I'd have to be pretty damn certain that I have no way of collecting anything more than that.
Jimmy M. said:
Yes that first payment is 1/3 of 1/3 or 1/9. And as Cueball points out what is to stop him from stopping payments after the first payment. And I sure don't know how the bankruptcy laws differ from individuals to companies. Remember, the laws are written by lawyers for lawyers.
One big problem right now is that nobody knows just how much money is in the IPT's treasury. I believe that is all the players could legally go after, what is in the IPT account and not what KT has in his personal account. I don't know. No one even knows how KT set up the IPT. Is it a limited partnership? or LLC? INC? or Corp? All of these throw different stuff into the mix and you really do need a legal mind to sort it out. I sure can't. There are rules of law that must be followed and it is no excuse that you do not know the rules. The judge and judicial system just do not care. You want to learn the rules then go to law school. Absence that, hire an attorney, one who is trained in this type of case. Right now I don't even know what type of case this might be.
Oh what a web we weave when first we attempt to deceive.
KT is one smart spider and he continues to improve daily on his web.
I do know that I am glad that I am not in the IPT players position at present. I was once, never again. Wait until they start receiving questioneers and having to travel to give depositions and then to appear in court. All the incidental expenses will really eat into their personal savings not to mention all their time they will lose. It will not be as easy as just signing up an attorney and forgetting about it and wait for the attorney to bring them a suitcase of money. And of course there will be no conflict with tournament dates. The court will come first, everything else will not matter.
KT has the advantage because he has played this game all his life. Pool players are all SL2's at this game. He will eat them up. He has the nuts and the pool players think they have them. Pool players are completely out of their element.
It will be interesting to watch what unfolds from the sidelines.
Look at all the posters here who already are turning on each other and they don't have a clue what is happening.
Perhaps you should all go to Church today and pray to God for some enlightment. At least those of you who have not turned your back on Him.
Jake
SpiderWebComm said:
computer illiterate ?? yet you say he has an email address??
give the forum his email address and let him communicate directly with the pros, rather than through the messenger, you !
Guys,
Keep in mind, that there is no evidence that Alan was aware of the 1/3 of 33% settlement being offered by the IPT before this post was made.
Before I was aware of this, I also had similar opinions about giving the benefit of doubt to the IPT, hoping KT would try to fulfill his promises, as he had indicated in recent announcements.
But this watered down renumeration without announcement is a log that clearly breaks the camel's back.
Many predicted it. Kudos to you all. Perhaps I've too much trust.
To me, your word is your honor and distrust causes more errors in judgement than prevention of harm. Maybe I've been lucky to hang around mostly good people.
To Alan, spend a few hours learning how to use the net. Anyone who doesn't, cannot maximize their effectiveness in any business these days. I expect you'd be a valuable contributor in the online world.
Colin
Keep in mind, that there is no evidence that Alan was aware of the 1/3 of 33% settlement being offered by the IPT before this post was made.
Before I was aware of this, I also had similar opinions about giving the benefit of doubt to the IPT, hoping KT would try to fulfill his promises, as he had indicated in recent announcements.
But this watered down renumeration without announcement is a log that clearly breaks the camel's back.
Many predicted it. Kudos to you all. Perhaps I've too much trust.
To me, your word is your honor and distrust causes more errors in judgement than prevention of harm. Maybe I've been lucky to hang around mostly good people.
To Alan, spend a few hours learning how to use the net. Anyone who doesn't, cannot maximize their effectiveness in any business these days. I expect you'd be a valuable contributor in the online world.
Colin
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Purdman
Banned
SpiderWebComm said:
This is as far as I am going to read this thread. I will tell you this, I won't be going to VF anymore. Done deal buddy. I will not support anybody who sticks up for a dam thief and crook. I will spend my entertainment dollars someplace else. Unless YOU sir are a lier!! KT plant and ass kisser extrodinaire!(sp)
Purdman
Jake,
You are consistently pessimistic in your views, and you follow form here. I do like the one line you use "Oh what a web we weave, when at first we start to deceive". Somehow, some way I believe this will be a costly web that TruDo has spun this time. Unlike some on here, I don't see him walking away scot free. The full ramifications of his actions have not yet been revealed.
Wherever you are KT, just know that this is not going to just blow away. For you, I predict the worst is yet to come. And the same goes for your little sidekick Dino. The wheels of justice move slowly and relentlessly.
You are consistently pessimistic in your views, and you follow form here. I do like the one line you use "Oh what a web we weave, when at first we start to deceive". Somehow, some way I believe this will be a costly web that TruDo has spun this time. Unlike some on here, I don't see him walking away scot free. The full ramifications of his actions have not yet been revealed.
Wherever you are KT, just know that this is not going to just blow away. For you, I predict the worst is yet to come. And the same goes for your little sidekick Dino. The wheels of justice move slowly and relentlessly.
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Here is the thing, and I would like to believe the same situation is happening to Deno, and some of the other well respected folks who are sticking up for the IPT.jay helfert said:
In a perfect world, the IPT is the best thing that has ever happened to pool. Big money, pretty good nationwide coverage....... a glimmer of hope. Alot of people put some pretty heavy faith into this thing, wanting nothing but the betterment of the game. Thats why there are still some of the heavy hitters supporting it. Allen, Deno and several others who love the game want to see it in the limelight, with the players being taken care of........ nothing wrong with that.
But sadly, this is not a perfect world. The problem is KT, always has been, always will be. He's a con man, a very good one. He got people to believe his lies, while he was thinking he would be able to milk some good coin from it for himself. Well, he couldnt........ so this is what is happening. Why should he put any more of his money into something there is no return on.
I dont know how everyone elses memory is, but for those who can recall...... remember the faq section of the IPT site when it first went up? How KT was talking about not needing any sponsers, or partners etc? How he had the cash set aside to run this thing for 2 years out of pocket etc? And then he would reevaluate and see if it would continue. Well, hes not a dummy, it didnt take him 2 years to figure out the way he was operating was not turning a profit. So he bails..... its what crooks do. If the Ho deal was ever anything more than a figment of KTs imagination....... nobody will probably ever know.
Again, the saddest part is seeing good people hurt by guys like KT. I wish it would have gone better, and people got paid before the axe fell. I hope guys like Allen Hopkins dont get their reputation tarnished for wanting someting better for the game they love. I hope there is some resolution money wise for the players........ I hope people stop believing the promises.
Chuck
To All AZB CIA-Detectives:
1) I helped setup Allen's hotmail so he didn't have to. He and his wife share an aol acct - but he didn't know how to get into it.
2) I didn't have the time to help him setup an AZB account
3) He had to find the "U" on the keyboard to respond to another player's email
Stop trying to look past the apparent and always trying to look for the conspiracy theory - many times you end up missing the whole point. He just wanted to get his view out asap since some pros were waiting to hear from him. I was just the messenger. If someone here wants to call up AH to set him up on AZ, by all means do it. You'll def have to train him - because he's very, very bad on the computer. How can he be bad on the computer and still run valley forge? Maybe the aliens are helping him? Maybe the Men in Black? Maybe he has a secret satellite phone connection into NORAD?
1) I helped setup Allen's hotmail so he didn't have to. He and his wife share an aol acct - but he didn't know how to get into it.
2) I didn't have the time to help him setup an AZB account
3) He had to find the "U" on the keyboard to respond to another player's email
Stop trying to look past the apparent and always trying to look for the conspiracy theory - many times you end up missing the whole point. He just wanted to get his view out asap since some pros were waiting to hear from him. I was just the messenger. If someone here wants to call up AH to set him up on AZ, by all means do it. You'll def have to train him - because he's very, very bad on the computer. How can he be bad on the computer and still run valley forge? Maybe the aliens are helping him? Maybe the Men in Black? Maybe he has a secret satellite phone connection into NORAD?
SpiderWebComm said:To All AZB CIA-Detectives:
1) I helped setup Allen's hotmail so he didn't have to. He and his wife share an aol acct - but he didn't know how to get into it.
2) I didn't have the time to help him setup an AZB account
3) He had to find the "U" on the keyboard to respond to another player's email
Stop trying to look past the apparent and always trying to look for the conspiracy theory - many times you end up missing the whole point. He just wanted to get his view out asap since some pros were waiting to hear from him. I was just the messenger. If someone here wants to call up AH to set him up on AZ, by all means do it. You'll def have to train him - because he's very, very bad on the computer. How can he be bad on the computer and still run valley forge? Maybe the aliens are helping him? Maybe the Men in Black? Maybe he has a secret satellite phone connection into NORAD?
Give it a rest.
SpiderWebComm said:To All AZB CIA-Detectives:
1) I helped setup Allen's hotmail so he didn't have to. He and his wife share an aol acct - but he didn't know how to get into it.
and his email address is________? maybe you can find the time to read his emails to him,,,who feeds and dresses Allen ?
