Mike Sigel forfeit in World 14-1 - Matchtime changed from 1 to 11...

marknyc said:
Wow - I just returned from the tournament and am just now seeing this thread. I was really looking forward to seeing this rematch since I saw the first match up close from two years ago. It was a great match up and they also bickered with each other the whole time, which made it even more amusing. This year, here is what I know, saw, and heard first hand.

To be clear, for those of you that will say I am a hater or in the bag for one party or the other: 1) I don't know any of the parties involved (Charlie or his staff, Mike, or Danny); 2) I have been to all 3 of these events and just love 14.1, plain and simple. 3) Mike was always my favorite player when I was younger.

This year, I was actually sitting down front at Danny and Mike's table prepared to watch this match and was pretty disappointed when it was called. A few minutes before the match was supposed to start, Mike came in, rather loudly and started complaining about the match times being rescheduled. I thought this was pretty inconsiderate given that there were other matches going on at the time and it was disruptive to the whole room (even though it lasted only a minute or two). He was told very clearly by the Tournament Director (not Charlie - I don't even think he was in the room) that he had 10 minutes to return and be ready to play or he would forfeit. He walked out complaining and never returned. The TD came over and asked Danny what time he had seen the schedule/brackets, and Danny replied around 9:30 or 10, he couldn't remember for sure. Mike never returned, but he had the chance to do so and play and in my opinion he should have. I was disappointed he didn't.

Everyone else made their matches on time for that session, and it doesn't make sense to me at least, that just one match would have changed time slots given there are only 8 tables. No one else mentioned their times being changed that I know of or have heard of. I know Mike said he had people that would vouch for him that his match time had changed. I read earlier here that it was Bobby and John, but I don't know anything about that at all. I saw the brackets earlier that morning on my way back from breakfast, probably around 7:45. I really think Mike may have misread things here, because what I saw was that he was slated for the early match at 11am.

Just to add more context here, in another match, Mike lost the lag by a good 2-3 inches, but insisted after the balls were racked, he had won it. I don't think it was a hustle move to try and get the break either - I really think in his mind he thought he had won it. When he began to argue about it, the whole section sitting around that table had to tell him that no, he did not win the lag. In another match, he was pretty rude to the crowd when they didn't applaud as loudly as he thought they should. He continued to explain how great the shot was and then when no one applauded, he stated several times that he couldn't wait to get out of this place. Someone even replied back to him that "Yeah Mike, that was the shot of the century", which really set him off.

It seems to me what he perceives to be the case in certain circumstances, isn't always the reality.

It sounds like people have a lot against Charlie on this forum, maybe for good reason...I don't really know. It seems like many people have made up their minds about this without being there and seeing what happened. Instead they have decided based on previous events or dislike for Charlie and his company. That too, may also be warranted, but I cannot speak to any of those instances. This is not meant to be negative towards people like Jay or JAM - I enjoy reading posts from both of you and think each of you add to the quality of this forum. Hopefully, you will not take what I am saying the wrong way.

Just my take - I really do think Mike may have misread the time on the brackets.

Thank you for the post!!!

Now I would only like to hear if it's true that John Schmidt thought the match was scheduled at 1 also, so he could be able to watch it.

After all the posts in this thread, I am still not sure what to believe, but I am starting to think that this is Mike's fault...
 
marknyc said:
....This is not meant to be negative towards people like Jay or JAM - I enjoy reading posts from both of you and think each of you add to the quality of this forum. Hopefully, you will not take what I am saying the wrong way....

Mark, I appreciate you stating your opinion so eloquently. I wish this forum had more members just like you.

I understand your feelings. Thanks for sharing them and making the contribution to the thread, as you were there on site! :smile:

I did not interpret one word you wrote to be negative towards me. In fact, I am glad you shared your experience about this tournament with the forum. I hope you had a good time! :yes:

:wave:

JAM
 
marknyc said:
Wow - I just returned from the tournament and am just now seeing this thread. I was really looking forward to seeing this rematch since I saw the first match up close from two years ago. It was a great match up and they also bickered with each other the whole time, which made it even more amusing. This year, here is what I know, saw, and heard first hand.

To be clear, for those of you that will say I am a hater or in the bag for one party or the other: 1) I don't know any of the parties involved (Charlie or his staff, Mike, or Danny); 2) I have been to all 3 of these events and just love 14.1, plain and simple. 3) Mike was always my favorite player when I was younger.

This year, I was actually sitting down front at Danny and Mike's table prepared to watch this match and was pretty disappointed when it was called. A few minutes before the match was supposed to start, Mike came in, rather loudly and started complaining about the match times being rescheduled. I thought this was pretty inconsiderate given that there were other matches going on at the time and it was disruptive to the whole room (even though it lasted only a minute or two). He was told very clearly by the Tournament Director (not Charlie - I don't even think he was in the room) that he had 10 minutes to return and be ready to play or he would forfeit. He walked out complaining and never returned. The TD came over and asked Danny what time he had seen the schedule/brackets, and Danny replied around 9:30 or 10, he couldn't remember for sure. Mike never returned, but he had the chance to do so and play and in my opinion he should have. I was disappointed he didn't.

Everyone else made their matches on time for that session, and it doesn't make sense to me at least, that just one match would have changed time slots given there are only 8 tables. No one else mentioned their times being changed that I know of or have heard of. I know Mike said he had people that would vouch for him that his match time had changed. I read earlier here that it was Bobby and John, but I don't know anything about that at all. I saw the brackets earlier that morning on my way back from breakfast, probably around 7:45. I really think Mike may have misread things here, because what I saw was that he was slated for the early match at 11am.

Just to add more context here, in another match, Mike lost the lag by a good 2-3 inches, but insisted after the balls were racked, he had won it. I don't think it was a hustle move to try and get the break either - I really think in his mind he thought he had won it. When he began to argue about it, the whole section sitting around that table had to tell him that no, he did not win the lag. In another match, he was pretty rude to the crowd when they didn't applaud as loudly as he thought they should. He continued to explain how great the shot was and then when no one applauded, he stated several times that he couldn't wait to get out of this place. Someone even replied back to him that "Yeah Mike, that was the shot of the century", which really set him off.

It seems to me what he perceives to be the case in certain circumstances, isn't always the reality.

It sounds like people have a lot against Charlie on this forum, maybe for good reason...I don't really know. It seems like many people have made up their minds about this without being there and seeing what happened. Instead they have decided based on previous events or dislike for Charlie and his company. That too, may also be warranted, but I cannot speak to any of those instances. This is not meant to be negative towards people like Jay or JAM - I enjoy reading posts from both of you and think each of you add to the quality of this forum. Hopefully, you will not take what I am saying the wrong way.

Just my take - I really do think Mike may have misread the time on the brackets.

I wasn't there so I don't know what happened. I'm beginning to wonder if the years and time spent with TruDough have had an adverse effect on Mr. SeaGull. The only times I have seen him during the last few years have been at a Qualifier in Los Angeles and when he did commentary for the IPT. Both times he seemed a little "over the top", a bit outrageous in his demeanor, and very full of himself. I attributed it to some new found fame and a desire to create a new image for himself as the "Mouth" of pool.

My experience of him years before in the 70's untll the early 90's was a little different. He was somewhat outspoken then, but always focused on doing what he had to do to win the tournament. He would not be seen around the tournament area except to practice prior to his matches. He didn't stay up late at night partying. He was there to win, and usually did. He showed up on time prepared to play.

After a match, he would check the board to see when he played next, and then he was gone, usually not to be seen again until his next match. Mike typically did not hang around the tournament area. He was not "buddy buddy" with too many players, if any. He was there for one reason, to beat them all! Nowadays he appears more concerned with his "celebrity" status then playing winning pool.
 
come on.....

This would only make sense if they postponed matches, not f they moved up matches like seems to be the case. A match going over the prescribed time limit shouldn't force a match to be held sooner, only later.


Jaden

Tom In Cincy said:
I suspect the start times for the matches were dependent on matches finishing on time.

90 minutes for these Pros seems appropriate enough time for a race to 100. But, I also know that it only takes a few SLOW matches to screw up the start times and table assignments.


Today's matches are 16 matches up to the final 16 players race to 150 and the match length is 2 hours.


Tomorrow's matches are for the final 16 players and the race is to 200 with a time limit of 2.5 hours starting at 1130am

Posting Table times and opponents shouldn't be that difficult to keep updated and posted. Players are responsible for checking. If anything changes after it is posted, it SHOULD be the TD's responsibility to inform the players.
 
ok I wasn't there....

I wasn't there, the only thing I have to go by is what hsa been relayed to me through this forum. I have read this entire thread and the entire thread posted by CW explaining what happened. so far, we've heard from people that were there that Mike Sigel came in the morning of the match and stated that his match was listed as !:00 p.m.

We've heard that the match listings were listed in order all but one match on top was listed for !:00 and all but one match was listed on bottom for 11:00. One of those matches had to be Mike.

We have also heard from CW that he told the players that if they were in the top eight seeds that they would be playing at one and other wise be playing at 11:00.

We have also heard that some spectators thought the match as at 1:00 and some though that it was at 11:00. More of the reports in these threads have stated that spectators thought that it was at one than thought it was at 11:00.

Ok so let's say that no times were changed. That still leaves the fact that CW has admitted that he clumped together the top eight seeds and that all but one of the matches on the top row were listed at one, making Mike Sigel's match clumped with the other matches. Even if that is how it was initially listed and NO changes were made, then it is still wrong to infer to players that matches are clumped together and then have only two matches out of place, but that doesn't make sense.

It would make much more sense to conclude that the matches were initially listed the four on top at 1:00 and the four matches on bottom at 11:00 and that a change was made. I mean we do know that matches have been moved up in the past and if I remember correctly it was even the same times on corey's match.

I can't look at all of this information and not come to the rational conclusion that the times WERE likely changed and that it wasn't nefarious in intent considering the similarity of past situations.

Jaden.
 
NYC cue dude said:
by would you even ASSUME Charlie had anything to do with mikes forfeit? For all we know he wasn't even in the room when it happened, or could have been playing/warming for a match. Charlie is NOT the tournament director!

Randy
(can't stand the kool aid drinkers)
You are correct, he is not the tournament director. However, it is one of his events and he is ultimately in charge (just ask him, he'll be glad to let you know that).

It is his responsibility to ensure the directors know what they are doing, and how to run a smooth tournament without any distractions such as this. If the TD can't do the job, get a different one! It's not rocket science.

Dennis
www.desertclassictour.com
 
I was there when Mike came by at a few minutes before 11:00 AM, not dressed for his match. When advised that he had a match and that he had fifteen or twenty minutes to appear properly dressed or that he would forfeit, he chose to remain and make a federal case of it with the tournament directors. Charlie Williams was not present, but was called on a cell phone, and, after a brief chat with both Sigel and the tournamnet directors, he upheld their decision. Charlie based his decision on the fact that the tournament organizers assured him that no matches were rescheduled and that the tournament chart had not been modified since the evening before. I cannot find fault with Charlie in this situation.

I think that, faced with this situation, most players would have rushed to their hotel room and been back in fifteen minutes dressed and ready to play. No doubt, Mike would have had to prepare far more quickly than would be customary, but I think he should have just done it. Instead, he claimed that he would need, among other things, to iron his shirt for the match, and that it would take a while. With the torunament directors not budging, he said "then you will have to forfeit me."

Frankly, I do not accept the argument that Mike could not have been ready to play. The situation was regrettable, but he had every opportunity to mitigate the damage done, and opted to be argumentative and intolerant, not to mention a bit rude.
 
kaznj said:
I was sitting there waiting to watch the match. Mike did come in the room wearing shorts and t shirt. He yelled across the room that he was told the match was at 1 not 11

1. It seems he was told what time to play, not checking the board himself. If so, was it by a friend (several friends got it wrong too, but may have been 1 friend who misread the board and passed it on to Mike and the others), OR could it have been the TD at the player's meeting?

2. Did Mike read the board later, after he had been drinking a fair amount, and just misread it?

3. If there WAS a change, how did Danny find out about it? It would be enlightening to get his take on it.

4. Did he assume he was seeded in the top 8?

5. From my experience playing on the IPT against Mike Sigel, I have personally witnessed his lack of ethics, judgment and class. He is a great player that does not need to demean himself. So, I do question the validity of his side of the story.

I have run many, many tournaments. I remember Rafael was in one of mine asking how much time he had. Since he played his matches so fast and was still on the A side, I needed to play quite a few matches on the B side before he would be up again. I gave him an approximate time and took down cell numbers of his and his opponents, which is what I do to everyone. I also play around the match to delay as long as I can playing a match that I have given firm times for. If it looks like they will be playing sooner and I need them there in the next 15 minutes to a half hour, then I call them and put them on alert.

The same thing happened to me (and Milo/Andrea) in a team tournament in CN. We were given a couple hours before we needed to be back, so our entire team went out to eat. We ordered drinks and hadn't ordered our meal yet, and were called to come back after less than 1 hour. We won anyway, but boy was I hungry! LOL.
 
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I'm not prepared to search for the post but I remember reading that this was not a match that he had to win to move on. He only needed to win the next match against an easier opponent to qualify for the next round regardless of a loss or forfeit to Harriman.

I believe if he would have been faced with elimination he would have hustled to get ready and play.

I'm totally speculating but a possible scenario is that part of his decision had to do with wanting to duck Harriman. If he felt confident that he would beat his next opponent he could maintain his confidence because he didn't really get beat by Harriman. His forfeit to Harriman at that point wouldn't hurt his tournament chances at all and he could remain confident.
 
JAM said:
About the match times, there are some posts on this forum written by those who were there on site at this event.

They state something different happened than what you have posted.

I was not there, but I hear your pain. It does suck that pool is not supported by a fan base large enough to sustain the sport. Welcome to American pool where pool is cruel to its own.

The existing lot of professional American players is dwindling. Soon there will not be very many events on American soil, as the American professionals will have to emigrate overseas to pursue their pool careers.

We can all sit back and watch LIVE lawn mower races and hot dog eating contests on ESPN here in the States and pool matches that occurred months ago where they sometimes don't even mention the prize payout monies because it's too damn embarassing. :(

JAM
I was there for 8 days and stand by what I saw including when asked by Sigel who won his lag with Goutier; Sigel lost the lag by a foot and argued about it suggesting that reading a schedule was also very difficult to see. By the way, I love watching Sigel play pool; I have watched his 150 ball run vs Zuglan a 100 times as it was almost a perfect run.
 
Luxury said:
I'm not prepared to search for the post but I remember reading that this was not a match that he had to win to move on. He only needed to win the next match against an easier opponent to qualify for the next round regardless of a loss or forfeit to Harriman.

I believe if he would have been faced with elimination he would have hustled to get ready and play.

I'm totally speculating but a possible scenario is that part of his decision had to do with wanting to duck Harriman. If he felt confident that he would beat his next opponent he could maintain his confidence because he didn't really get beat by Harriman. His forfeit to Harriman at that point wouldn't hurt his tournament chances at all and he could remain confident.

He had to win his next two matchs to advance. In the double eliminaion stage you had to win two matches in any order to advance. If he beat Harriman he would have to win only one more time out of to chances to advance. By forfeiting he had to win his next two which he did not do, won the first and lost to Ortman to get eliminated.
 
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