$Million Dollar Shootout Turnout and Schedule

Allen, I read what you wrote several times to have better understanding. It seems to me that this 1M tournament's survivorship is based wholely on satellites (but for satellites to work, "luck" has to be involved). Otherwise, I don't see it being any different from any regular tournament, except higher entry fee and 100% payback.

Here are some of my quick thoughts and counterpoints (Fatboy's favorite) for discussion and debates. Please don't take this as a criticism. Just some of my provocative thoughts written here for everyone to disect.

allen_jr said:
these are all great players, no one is a favorite to win.
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^^ Pool is such a "skill" game. While it's true that no one is favorite to win this event, it is reasonable to say that 3 or 4 of these players are favorite to win this 1M Tournament. Assuming that it is true to say only 3,4 players are favorite to win, wouldn't the tournament be difficult to survive in the long run? Without the helps of satellites, I don't see too many other pros putting up 5K to compete against the cream of the crop.

allen_jr said:
It is a shame that many players do not go to events because they feel they cannot win, and the prize money is no good further down the line.
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^^ Too much skills disparity. Pool involves too much skills. Take this particular event as an example: the cream of the crop in this event could easily give the "bottom tier" competitors huge weights. I have to give a shout out to some of the guys here for the courage to enter. But in reality, how long can they continue to put up 5K to compete against the top tier?


allen_jr said:
The reason we pay all places $1000 minimum is because if anyone won a satellite, we want them to be assured of earning money for coming. True, no one this year won their way in via satellite, but we kept our end of the deal. We promised that everyone would get at least $1000, and they are. Yes, it's not as glamorous, but it might be in 5 years when 200 "amateurs" win their way into this event for $100, and when 200 amateurs win their way in for $100, you can bet big money that lots of the worlds best players will pony up $5K to play in that event.
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^^ I will just quote what you said to address this concern: "players do not go to events because they feel they cannot win, and the prize money is no good further down the line." So, how can one address the satellite issues?

allen_jr said:
Not all, but some pool tournaments should be a "premium event". Yes, its great that so many tournaments are so accessible to so many people, but the top pros ...
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^^ How can we define what a definition of a "top pro" is? Relative to whom? For example, take a top 10 players in this field. The top 2 guys can still beat the bottom 2 guys easily. So, are the bottom 2 guys still consider "top pros" in the eyes of the top 2 guys? If not, should they be excluded from the tournament?

allen_jr said:
Longer races and more time to play will more clearly define the dominant player... and these competetions should reward the better player...
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^^ This is more like a TAR format. I don't think this was the purpose of the 1M Tournament (and pool as an overall scheme). If it is, I apologize.

SUMMARY:

I think for the 1M Tournament, and for pool in general, any format should involve a lot of "luck". Imagine if it is a race to 5 or 7 winners break, then anything can happen. Yes, it is a lot of "luck". But in the long run, "luck" will even out. This would allow the bottom competitors a chance to win. Otherwise, the elimination process of "weaker players who feel they can not win" will take place, and eventually, only a few "top" players are left standing.
 
I agree with MH. Derby is race to 7, still Ralf has been able to win it 3 times, Feijen once and Efren at least once. (9-ball). But even I can win against one of them in a race to 7...
 
td873 said:
Kudos to Hopkins for the effort. Many thanks to him for all he's done for the pool world.

But the reality is still real: the payout is higher simply because the entry fee went up. And the price point for entry is an order of magnitude higher than virtually any other tournament going today.

The US open is around $500 and they are packed every year. DCC is $150(+$100 buyback) and the field is out of control. Other regional and local $100 tournaments have huge fields. But what was the last tournament anyone saw with a $1000 entry? Much less $5000. You may get a full ring game at $1000, but honestly, a full tournament?

It will take a serious amount of marketing and a dramatic change in public AND player perception to make a $5000 entry acceptable. I really hope this thing works out, but IMO increasing payouts on the backs of the players isn't going to change the world. And, virtually no joe-shmoe is going to put his $5000 on the line to get a lesson. He might put $500 though.

-td
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Agreed. If anyone else (ex. Kevin Trudeau) promoted a "Million Dollar 9-Ball Shootout" and there was NO million dollars AND only 12 players showed up, they (the promoter) would catch a LOT of heat.

Even the biggest pool fan would tire of watching the same 12 pros playing each other over, and over, and over, for four grueling days.

I hope this works out, but it's unlikely under the current plan. IMO.
 
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OK, I will try my best to respond, but before I begin, I want to make sure that I am clear in the fact that by no means do I think the players who win events like the DCC and US Open are "lucky" I know it takes a massive amount of skill to win. I did not mean to imply that they were lucky, and I hope I didnt come across that way...

Michael-Hoang said:
Allen, I read what you wrote several times to have better understanding. It seems to me that this 1M tournament's survivorship is based wholely on satellites (but for satellites to work, "luck" has to be involved). Otherwise, I don't see it being any different from any regular tournament, except higher entry fee and 100% payback.
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OK, it is based on satellites, but satellites allow players on a local level to compete with local players to win an entry. They may not have to play top pros to get in, but they can win the chance to play in this event, as well as $1000 guaranteed. And this event is different because 1) the payout can be huge, and thats a big, important difference 2) players are guaranteed to play at least 75 games (150 in the case this year) before they are eliminated. No other tournament in the world does that, to the best of our knowledge. I will repeat that, no other event in the world. If I am wrong, someone please inform me of these tournaments.

Michael-Hoang said:
Here are some of my quick thoughts and counterpoints (Fatboy's favorite) for discussion and debates. Please don't take this as a criticism. Just some of my provocative thoughts written here for everyone to disect.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your feedack, i appreciate your time and thoughts...

Michael-Hoang said:
^^ Pool is such a "skill" game. While it's true that no one is favorite to win this event, it is reasonable to say that 3 or 4 of these players are favorite to win this 1M Tournament. Assuming that it is true to say only 3,4 players are favorite to win, wouldn't the tournament be difficult to survive in the long run? Without the helps of satellites, I don't see too many other pros putting up 5K to compete against the cream of the crop.
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Well, we have only 12 players this year, so sure, it is reasonable to predict it down to 3 or 4. However, I dont think anyone would want to bet exactly which 4 will end up on Sunday. If we had a full field, it would be harder to narrow down. If players consider themselves to be top pros, and World Champions, and US Open Champions - wouldn't they want the chance to prove it to everyone, and win big money? Why do they post $500 in other tourneys, are they just mad at their money? If a player considers himself to be a World class competitor, why would he be afraid to prove it? Why don't they just get a job and play pool on the weekends?

Michael-Hoang said:
^^ Too much skills disparity. Pool involves too much skills. Take this particular event as an example: the cream of the crop in this event could easily give the "bottom tier" competitors huge weights. I have to give a shout out to some of the guys here for the courage to enter. But in reality, how long can they continue to put up 5K to compete against the top tier?
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Well, you are part right. The top tier of pool players in the world do dominate the rest. The point is that the World's top players should be in a class of their own, and they should be a favorite to win an event like this. We designed satellites to give players the opportunity to play in this event for a lower price, and thus have a chance to win some money and play with top players. The average player should not have the luxury of just posting $100-200 bucks and competing with a World Champion in a short race to 7. Sadly, in pool, there is no other choice. You can't enter a golf tournament for a few hundred bucks and play with Tiger. You have to EARN THAT RIGHT. Pool should be that way, every other sport is. Yes, a novelty of poker is the chance to play with a pro, but the true driving force is big money. Plain and simple. The top poker pros dont play in $100 buy in events very often.

Michael-Hoang said:
^^ I will just quote what you said to address this concern: "players do not go to events because they feel they cannot win, and the prize money is no good further down the line." So, how can one address the satellite issues?
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Not sure what to address here... in this event, at full field or higher, a player can place in 9-16th and earn $15,000 ($10,000 profit). are there any other 200 player, 5 day events that you can make that much in 16th place? You don't have to win, you don't have to be "top tier" to still earn some money...

Michael-Hoang said:
^^ How can we define what a definition of a "top pro" is? Relative to whom? For example, take a top 10 players in this field. The top 2 guys can still beat the bottom 2 guys easily. So, are the bottom 2 guys still consider "top pros" in the eyes of the top 2 guys? If not, should they be excluded from the tournament?
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You are right, it is hard to define a top pro. But if a player gets in there for the big money and is not afraid to play, then he should be considered... the best in the World do not back down from anyone. Higher entry fees and longer playing formats will bring the cream to the top. Everyone will see who the pros are, no one will have to guess.

Michael-Hoang said:
^^ This is more like a TAR format. I don't think this was the purpose of the 1M Tournament (and pool as an overall scheme). If it is, I apologize.
SUMMARY:
I think for the 1M Tournament, and for pool in general, any format should involve a lot of "luck". Imagine if it is a race to 5 or 7 winners break, then anything can happen. Yes, it is a lot of "luck". But in the long run, "luck" will even out. This would allow the bottom competitors a chance to win. Otherwise, the elimination process of "weaker players who feel they can not win" will take place, and eventually, only a few "top" players are left standing.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for your input. We want all players to have the opportunity to play, but we do not think that every player has the right to play against a World Class player in a short race format. By winning a satellite, which is a shorter race, the common player can EARN the right to play with top players, while also being guaranteed $1000 payout, and a chance to improve and maybe earn more.... I could go on, but my eyes hurt :)

thanks again...
 
Neil said:
Read my post above yours. They tried to get sat. tournaments going for this. The public fell through. With all places paid, everyone CAN make money if the public does their part in getting this going.
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Neil - did the public fall through or could it just be the promotion of the event was not what it should have been? many people didn't even know the events were happening. several qualifier events were scheduled at the last minute and the result - noone showed.

I applaud the Hopkins for their efforts, hopefully next year will grow beyond belief based on the information they obtained this year, but I have to wonder if the promotion of the event could have been better with advanced notice for the satellite qualifiers. I can't believe that after all we have heard from the players wanting money in the events that they would not be willing to throw $350-$400 in the ring to win a spot in a $5000 entry event unless one of two things happened: 1) noone believed it would go off (first year skeptics are everywhere); or 2) the event presence was not felt. just my two cents.
 
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Allen,

Thank you for taking your time to respond. You made several good points. Had the schedule not a conflict with another event, I would have loved to be there. You know exactly what I do for a living. So, it is in my interests if this event succeed (and pool succeeds in general). If there is anything I can do to help, please feel free to let me know. Hopefully, I can be a part of the 1M Dollar Shootout next year.

Sincerely,

Mike.
 
9balllvr said:
Neil - did the public fall through or could it just be the promotion of the event was not what it should have been? many people didn't even know the events were happening. several qualifier events were scheduled at the last minute and the result - noone showed.

I applaud the Hopkins for their efforts, hopefully next year will grow beyond belief based on the information they obtained this year, but I have to wonder if the promotion of the event could have been better with advanced notice for the satellite qualifiers. I can't believe that after all we have heard from the players wanting money in the events that they would not be willing to throw $350-$400 in the ring to win a spot in a $5000 entry event unless one of two things happened: 1) noone believed it would go off (first year skeptics are everywhere); or 2) the event presence was not felt. just my two cents.
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I talked to Allen last year and posted likewise. I didn't get any response until mid june from three people. One of those people is playing in this event. I was told if I held the event the player would show. I talked to all the people in my area and most all of the rest of Florida. I finally had 9 players that told me they would play. The last seven never were in the equasion. There are many great players in this state. Due to reasons only the players know my event didn't happen. I had two show up on the day of the tournament. I am not saying this to judge anyone or cast blame, it just didn't happen. I will run the format that Allen and Allen set up for the 2009 season. I believe in what they are about and cuesports as well. Tip of the hat to A&A for doing what they said they would do, there is a shortage of that these days.

Dwight
 
To Allen & Allen,

If I came across as criticizing or whining in anyway, shape or form, that was never my intention.

I cannot imagine the amount of efforts that both of you put in to get this event going. Thank you.

It took me a while to write what I wrote. And the purpose of what I wrote was to ask "difficult" questions as a mean for discussion. If the schedule permits, I would like to be a part of this event next year either as a volumteer, a vendor or whatever it is.

Regards,

Mike.
 
The first World Series of Poker had exactly seven players. And the next year 21 showed up. I hope that Allen Jr. continues this tournament. I think it will grow each year and I foresee 100 players within five years.
 
i was going to go but my back got to bad to travel, i spoke to someone last week and I had planned on going but I cant travel sux,

its 100% based on sattlights and since they dindt happen as planned were watching the same guys we always watch because we cant beat them, they can only beat each other, recruting, tricking, paying other people is what has to happen to make this event blow up, yes I said tricking-think that dosent happen in poker?, I hope and pray Allen and his crew puts this event on next year. They HAVE to focus on the down steam to have the big tournment year end, the big even is the easy part.
 
Well, I had known about this event for atleast 6 months, I live in the Seattle WA area and there was never any talk that I heard about having a qualifiying tournament.

I don't think enough players think it is worth the time and effort to go and be beat by someone in the first round, you keep saying they would get $1000, what about there time off work, there travel expenses ect..., its not just the pro's who have these expenses.

Good try and all but when you cant even get the top 25 players in the world to show up there must be something else wrong besides the money?

Hopefully you can tape these matches and make up some of the time and money it took to try and put this event together.

Oh, and please, STOP comparing pool to golf or poker, its obvious that what works for golf and what works for poker will not work for pool.

I will make one suggestion/coment, I think pool would be better suited with the professional boxing idea. Undercard matches and then the main event with some sort of championship type belt ect... for the champions of all the different games, and you can rate the challengers the same as how boxing does with certain players being first in line based on there records, this way they can travel around to casinos and play in a smaller type areana in front of serious pool players from all areas in the country, maybe have pay per view and the sales from dvd's. I know I would go to one of these type events if it came to the Seattle/Tacoma area.

Good Luck with the million dollar shootout.
 
I cant find any first day results anywhere on any site, half of my house flooded just when the second round started, 4" of water in my living room-fun stuff. Back to Biz I know the first round scores and who was playing who in the secound round but I dont see a board, list etc of whats the standings. this is a terrible mistake it shows lack of attenion to detail, and "the devel is in the details" something my team of Washington DC ,Harvard Suma Cum Laude Graduates, bend me over on billing warned me years ago, you have to stay on top of the details. Posting the score on here or the $1M shoot out site should have happened. Its possible i missed seeing it, it was a rough day.

I might sound like i'm knocking Allens or Jr's work, i'm not I'm not sugar coating the facts, in my ventures I want the bad news-so I can fix it, dont tell me the good news like your Lamborghini's are great cars-I know that, tell me my house is flooding so we can mve the acient persian rugs off the floor before they get water damaged. Bad news is good because you can control it and turn it into good news-If you have the heart to do so. It hurts to hear it but the moment of pain is the moment of growth. Allen JR take this paragraph and memorize it and you'll go far-in everything you do, I learned this when I was 27, I was a million air by the time I was 33.

Your very smart and I know you can make it work. My next post is going to be critical too. Another piece of advice while I'm trying to help you, stayy the way you are-you dont side step things, thats a hard one to learn and you have, so your on your way. but memorize the paragraph above and apply it to everything in life, for example #1 Do you want a booger on your nose all night at a party or someone to tell you ASAP so you can fix it? or #2 Have them tell you how good your hair looks, while you have a bugger on your nose? #1 of course sure its embarassing for 10 seconds it happens to everybody-girls too, the moment of pain/embarassment is the monent you should awalys look for, and thats why in a nut shell I have been successful. I will do what I can for you I wanted to come up with one of the 2 of the players but my back was too bad.

Cheers
 
Taken from your website:


Qualify to play for as little as $25
Or buy in direct for $5000

That's right, play in any of the world wide qualifiers and sub-qualifiers for as little as $25...
maybe even less, and win your chance to compete against the best for your share of the $1,000,000 prize pool. Be the first to win the lavish gold bracelet that will accompany the cash and crown the champion. Every participant in the main event gets paid, so you're a guaranteed winner!

My take on it:


Thats a great plan however there were few quaifyers and until that model is realy promoted your not going to get the turn out you want. Cory Harper busted his ass to send you a player he wanted a 10 player field $500/man-winner takes all that knocks out any A- player from wanting to post up $500, they got 8 so somebody walked with $4,000 instead of comming to your event they had no choice. this event was solid attempt at a qqualifyer but it fell short-Cory couldnt dig up 10 players in LA population 20,000,000+. its sad,

it takes 199 people to lose and one to win to get just one player to your event using the $25 formula to pay a entry for a $5000 entry fee. If you base the gig on that model it would take 200 in players in 200 different events or 40,000 participants with 200 winners @ $5,000 each to populate your tournment if it was predicated all on $25 entry fees, now I know that if you had a full field guys like Schmit, Kirkwood, Frost, Bartrum, Alex etc would get staked so lets say 50 champions pay the $5000 or 25% of the field so now you have $250K posted, you still need 150 winners out of 150 events with 200 players posting $25 each winner take all or 150winners X 200people posting X $25= $750,000 + $250,000(staked pro's etc)= $1,000,000. it works on paper but I dont think there are 150 -200 Tournments a year with 200 player fields. Its hard to draw 200 to win a spot that pays $1000 when thats what their travel costs are. I put alot of time into this post i'm sleepy and math is hard when i'm ZZZZ.


I just think its not possible to get 200 people to post $25 to win a seat or to win a spot in a higher level tournment, the top pros do savers for $500-$2500, these guys need and want instant gratification, they want the $5,000 now not for a seat 6 months later or a spot on the board, the poker players will because like golfers they arnt as desperiate for $$, I'm around these guys (pros on down and very few are going have the foresight for the big score), they need the $$ now, and its getting worse, flying will be brutsl expensive next year



And then you have to make the pool room owners happy(greens fees, TD's, all normal tournment costs) that a tall hill to climb to dig up 200 people to play in 150 such events a year you might get one in PHX, it would be impossible in Vegas/LA. 200 player tournments are tough to create one more name on the board. TO me the numbers dont support the dream and desire, I wish like you ,me and all of us it would but it dosent, 200 players is a week long tournment.


I'm not pissing on your event at all,I believe that a $200,000 event might be a better plan, a premium tournment, same format with satlight qualifyers just less bodies, and with a 80% reduction in players then a few good qualifyers like Cory tried to do would work and JS's backer would have posted, lets look at that its $20,000 for winning this year-$10 to JS $10 his backer, so kis backer is getting only 2to1 on his bet, I dont know JS's story I'm just using him as a example-it could be anyone, they are only getting 2-1 if they win-thts a horrible ROI-return on investment, Can JS win? sure with out a dount but I wouldnt lay 2 to on him or anyone in that field, not even Archer.


I applaude your effort and tireless dedication to this event but your gonna have to play with the numbers, and put more effort into the qualifyers, Sure the $500 qualifyers are fine for Archer, Alex, Busta, but Dave Hemma is on the boarder there, But if he played in a $25 200 player tournment I dont like it because I cant beat him unless its a race to 5 and I get lucky. The skill set and dynamics(luck) makes this formula work in poker not pool.

my 10 cents, its late and i might have made a mistake, I hope I can help you if you need me I'll do what I can-I have been a mass marketer for 15 years, thats my gig. I'm good at it-not pool, i'm ok but wouldnt do any good in your tournment and I can afford $5,000. If my back was fit and you didnt have 10 of the top15 in the world there i would play in it, if there was say 50, it might swell, I have a few ideas, if your interested, . Best of luck I admire you and thank you for this.

ericp
 
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NateSchoepf said:
Well, I had known about this event for atleast 6 months, I live in the Seattle WA area and there was never any talk that I heard about having a qualifiying tournament.

I don't think enough players think it is worth the time and effort to go and be beat by someone in the first round, you keep saying they would get $1000, what about there time off work, there travel expenses ect..., its not just the pro's who have these expenses.

Good try and all but when you cant even get the top 25 players in the world to show up there must be something else wrong besides the money?

Hopefully you can tape these matches and make up some of the time and money it took to try and put this event together.

Oh, and please, STOP comparing pool to golf or poker, its obvious that what works for golf and what works for poker will not work for pool.

I will make one suggestion/coment, I think pool would be better suited with the professional boxing idea. Undercard matches and then the main event with some sort of championship type belt ect... for the champions of all the different games, and you can rate the challengers the same as how boxing does with certain players being first in line based on there records, this way they can travel around to casinos and play in a smaller type areana in front of serious pool players from all areas in the country, maybe have pay per view and the sales from dvd's. I know I would go to one of these type events if it came to the Seattle/Tacoma area.

Good Luck with the million dollar shootout.
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I don't think it's "obvious" at all that what works for poker or golf won't work for pool. It's kind of funny though that you think what works for boxing might work for pool. Boxing rewards a very few with success while the vast majority of contestants stay broke and bruised. Kind of like pool.

I for one think that this has a real chance to succeed. But it has NO CHANCE to succeed if it's knocked at at every corner.

The World Poker Tour guy was laughed at by just about every network. I can only imagine the execs at the Travel Channel laughing at the guy there who wanted to put POKER on a station about vacations. Who is laughing now.

Success begets success. I guarantee you that when the prize fund starts to look pretty lucrative then there will be people looking for every way to get a horse in this race.

One thing is for sure - whatever they have been trying for the last 50 years for pool AIN'T working.

So, do we want to see all our best players and up and coming players staying broke or trying poker instead? Or do we want to try and be a part of making it work ourselves?

All of us keyboard warriors love this game. We all want to be pros. Who among us wouldn't seriously throw a couple hundred a year at the chance to play in the big leagues?

Seriously, if you could pay a total of $100 and had a legitimate shot at winning a spot in this event then why wouldn't you?

And another thing that people are forgetting is that IF the event fills up then everyone in it won't be a stone cold world champion. Most of the people will be good and there will be legitimate chances for decent players to make the cut.

This can work for a lot of reasons. The biggest one is that it's transparent. No faith healer promising the sky, no one saying that it's their way or the highway.

It's real simple each place in the tournament costs $5000. The entire prize fund is player funded. It doesn't matter how the money is raised, doesn't matter what the satelite tournaments look like or even what game was played. Hell, have a marbles tournament with the first prize being an entry to the event.

All WE HAVE TO DO is get off our collective asses and find ways to get players into this event.

Or we can type a million words why it won't work. I know which one is easier to do. Which way will you go?
 
I know I only live 1/2 hour away from this thing, but if you love pool and have any way to get here DO IT! Hell you don't even have to be playing and you can screw a cue together and practice for free on perfect Diamond tables right next to Shane, Cory, Dennis.....FRIGGIN Francisco!!!....I know I did it! :D

theres action, mini tourneys, easy parking, good food thats not crazy expensive, and the Pros playing a TON of pool. I can't wait for the weekend when things start getting tight at the top of the leader board. With this type of format EVERY game counts.

G.
 
I'll be the first to pony up for a qualifier for next year. Any APA 5 or below on AZ can enter. Let's see how many of us there are and determine an entry fee. I'm down for up to $500 just for a chance to win entrance.

The APA in my area charges a 5 man team $30 per week. A yearly schedule is 48 weeks. If four teams played, this would generate a prize pot of enough money to send a player to the Million Dollar Challenge. Some operators would argue that this would not benefit all the players, but here one player out of 20 (5%) would win entrance into a $5000 event and guarantee a minimum payout of $1,000 for last place. In my area we had 247 teams and only 13 (5.2%) go to the Vegas tournament that is a lower entry and must place 5th to receive $1000 per player.
 
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