Minnesota Fats vs Mosconi
- Thread starter berlowmj
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i personally watched Fats play in an exhibition approx 1963..he was a real talker and showman with the audience.a great player..however most of the things i have read over the years would indicate that Willie would win MOST of the time..there was a match on ESPN Classics in 2006 they both played each other when they were very old..Willie usually won...thanks for starting this discussion..those are 2 of my best players that i like..
................ check out > www.newdeco.com they have a few pics for sale of both.............any more old timers out there can tell us some personal stories ?????
................ check out > www.newdeco.com they have a few pics for sale of both.............any more old timers out there can tell us some personal stories ?????
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I remember watching them play on ESPN Classic one time...they were both very old by then, though...
They were playing a sort of "Master of The Table" tournament. Races in 8-ball, 9-ball, 7-ball,(I want to say one pocket) and I don't remember what else...but, in short, Mosconi won all but the 7-ball event. Lol.
Again, they were mighty old by this time, so dunno what it really means...pretty sure they've played each other at some other time though, no?
They were playing a sort of "Master of The Table" tournament. Races in 8-ball, 9-ball, 7-ball,(I want to say one pocket) and I don't remember what else...but, in short, Mosconi won all but the 7-ball event. Lol.
Again, they were mighty old by this time, so dunno what it really means...pretty sure they've played each other at some other time though, no?
I'm not sure about 1-Pocket because, as far as I know, Mosconi didn't really play it (then again, what do I know? I met the guy once when I was like 16 and he was in his twilight years). I say that in case someone wants to respond to my post with a reference to a 1-Pocket match up. However, during their heyday, straight-pool was the game so I assume you're asking who would win that. The two don't belong in the same breath if you're comparing their straight-pool games. Willie Mosconi was one of the greatest straight-pool players (some may argue he was "the" greatest) ever to play the game. As for Fats, while most who actually got to see him play while he was still at least somewhat young will tell you that the man could play, they will stop short of telling you that he was anywhere near the caliber of straight-pool player that Willie Mosconi was.
Fats wasnt really a match for Mosconi at any point in his career in most games. The match you are referring to is from Wide World of sports in the late 70s. They played 8 ball, 9 ball, and 15 ball rotation. Mosconi took him down quite handily. One pocket who knows... Mosconi wasnt known for it, but I would think with his caliber of play, and his creativity...... he could probably have moved just fine with Fats if the situation ever came up.
Chuck
Chuck
RiverCity said:
I saw this on TV as a kid.... Willie did win, but Fats pretty much stole the show. I found it to be facinating, Willie all business and Fats running his mouth nonstop, trying to act the showman.
As a side note, about a year ago I was playing a younger guy in a bar, and he's using a low end McDermott, he shot ok but wasn't anything special. While we are playing he tells me about being in a pool hall with his dad in Philly, and how he was playing..some old guy. He said the old guy was so impressed with him being such a young kid and playing well that he gave him the McDermott. The old guy? you guessed it....Fats.
I told him it was a good story, and I said he must really treasure the cue. This guy was maybe 27 tops, so I go google Fats, and find out that it is possible that the story was true. Fats was still alive and in the Philly area when it supposedly happened. Whether true or not it was a good detailed story....Why lis to an almost complete stranger?? Doesn't make sense to me. There was nothing to gain by telling the story. It wasn't going to make him win and there wasn't anything on the line.
McCue Banger McCue
Willie's Game
According to his autobiography, Fats couldn't carry Willie's cue case. Evidently there was a time, when both were along in years, that they were getting ready to do an exhibition and Fats was entertaining the crowd and made a comment that he'd "beat them all" at one time or another. Someone in the crowd asked him if he'd beaten Willie. Fats simply said he'd "played 'em all and beat 'em all." Willie jumped up from his chair and charged Fats saying "you never beat me!" The exhibition had to be delayed for a while since Willie wanted to challenge Fats to a duel or something.
The biggest concession Willie made about Fats was that every time Fats opened his mouth, Willie made money. Other than that, he dismissed him as a hustler not a pool player.
Brian in VA - fan of both for different reasons.
According to his autobiography, Fats couldn't carry Willie's cue case. Evidently there was a time, when both were along in years, that they were getting ready to do an exhibition and Fats was entertaining the crowd and made a comment that he'd "beat them all" at one time or another. Someone in the crowd asked him if he'd beaten Willie. Fats simply said he'd "played 'em all and beat 'em all." Willie jumped up from his chair and charged Fats saying "you never beat me!" The exhibition had to be delayed for a while since Willie wanted to challenge Fats to a duel or something.
The biggest concession Willie made about Fats was that every time Fats opened his mouth, Willie made money. Other than that, he dismissed him as a hustler not a pool player.
Brian in VA - fan of both for different reasons.
In Eddie Robins book "Winning One Pocket" he tells of Fats and Mosconi gambling at one-pocket in the late 40's. Willie had always refused to gamble at one-pocket with Fats because he supposedly didn't know how to play. After losing $2000 Fats called his backer for more money telling him it was a great game for him but that he needed a new stake. When his backer asked how he lost the original $2000, Fats answered that Willie didn't understand all the many sophisticated and finesse moves of one-pocket and that he had continually beat the great Willie Mosconi to the shot, but Mosconi, not knowing any better, just kept running 8 and out.
Check your history books on this one folks. Fats never won not "ONE" major pool tournament, he never beat a world champion player...ever. BUT...he made a name for himself that no other player....world champion or otherwise has ever been able to do, not back then, or even now. His name is "household" everywhere. What player has ever accomplished that? So I guess in a sense, he beat Mosconi as a legend, because he never had to win 15 world championships to be remembered as a great pool player, he went beyond that...he became a "Legendary Pool Player" selling bullshit...LOL.
Glen
Glen
realkingcobra said:
Or one can look at it another way. I believe that Fats didn't call himself "Minnesota Fats" until after the movie "The Hustler" came out. I think that he actually had several prior names, including "New York Fats" and a few other "Fats''. After the movie came out, he claimed that the character "Minnesota Fats", played by Jackie Gleason, was based on him.
That was very slick of him, although I do not think very ethical. But he got away with it even though several people connected to the movie, including Willie, came out claiming that the movie character was not based on him. I understand that he and Willie did not get along very well and actually disliked each other, especially on Willie's part, until near the end of their careers.
When it comes to skill on the pool table, I don't think that Fats even came close to Willie's abilities. Off the table, while Fats was certainly a more colorful and noticable character, and while Willie had a reputation for being a pretty nasty person, I still think that I'd give the "class" title to Willie. JMO
Jim
Fats was in Albuquerque in the mid '70s playing in a tournament at the Western Skies hotel with Cowboy Jimmy Moore and others and was looking for a "local" to play a little one pocket. Jimmy told him about Louie Roybal, who was a "pretty good" local and had some gamble in him. Fats and Louie matched up for $100 a game one pocket. Louie won 11 of 12 games before Fats quit. Fats later learned that Louie, at one time, was rated number 1 in the country at one pocket. Ha! Louie's still around, last year (or the year before?) won the BCA Senior Masters division in 8-ball. 
Hambone said:In Eddie Robins book "Winning One Pocket" he tells of Fats and Mosconi gambling at one-pocket in the late 40's. Willie had always refused to gamble at one-pocket with Fats because he supposedly didn't know how to play. After losing $2000 Fats called his backer for more money telling him it was a great game for him but that he needed a new stake. When his backer asked how he lost the original $2000, Fats answered that Willie didn't understand all the many sophisticated and finesse moves of one-pocket and that he had continually beat the great Willie Mosconi to the shot, but Mosconi, not knowing any better, just kept running 8 and out.
Mosconi's version of this meeting is on page 216 of his autobiography, Willie's Game:
I had met Wanderone only once, I think it was in 1949. He came into Frankie Mason's room in Philadelphia one night, and no one knew who he was. He was just a guy who carried the cue for another hustler, who went by the name of Baby Face Whitlow. But Fats was looking for some action of his own. He started mouthing off about how good he was, and finally Mason said to me "Willie, why don't you play this guy and shut him up?" Fats didn't want to shoot straight pool; it required too much skill for him. His specialty was a gimmick game called one-pocket, in which each player is required to make all his shots in one predesignated pocket. So we played one-pocket, and I beat him five straight games for fifty bucks a game, and I had to lend him train fare to get back to New York.
From what I have heard and read, the only player who considered Fats to be world-class was Fats himself. Any of the top players of the era would have given their left nut to get Fatty in an even game for big cash. That being said, however, it is evident that he was in a class by himself when it came to taking down the cash. He knew how to match up, and he would woof and carry on until he got weight that he could win with.
There's no denying the fact that Fatty's talent for shameless self-promotion made him the biggest personality in the game. Even today, if you ask the average non-player to name a pool player, the odds are that the name called will be Minnesota Fats. But could he beat Mosconi or anyone else at that level even-up? Forget about it!
There's no denying the fact that Fatty's talent for shameless self-promotion made him the biggest personality in the game. Even today, if you ask the average non-player to name a pool player, the odds are that the name called will be Minnesota Fats. But could he beat Mosconi or anyone else at that level even-up? Forget about it!
Anytime a post about Fats comes up, it is always stated he was no world beater. But, what level was he at? Was he at least a low level pro by today's standards? Could he run 100 in straight pool?
History lesson-thank you
Obviously, I was a victim of popular culture. However, I did watch a young gambler whose position play was consistently equal to "ball in hand." He was playing 9-ball & forced to concede the break plus 3-4 balls in order to get opponents. He was oblivious to noisy crowds, people bumping him, beverage carts...
berlowmj said:
Obviously, I was a victim of popular culture. However, I did watch a young gambler whose position play was consistently equal to "ball in hand." He was playing 9-ball & forced to concede the break plus 3-4 balls in order to get opponents. He was oblivious to noisy crowds, people bumping him, beverage carts...
Willie would win all pool games against Fats in his prime. Fats might have been able to play with him in carom and probably still needed help with a spot. I have heard story's of Fats banking balls really well. I know that Willie Mosconi was not helpless here either. As far as I know he lost one time to Fats and it was long after the both had been retired Fat's claimed he was 115 yrs. old at the time. The match included nine ball and seven ball.
During the match Fats slopped in as many as he shot in. He always hit the balls really hard, so that when he missed in sloppy games. He could still play a seven rail double carom combo and he was very lucky at those. There is a trick shot named after him. It's a long two rail bank but, only if it's on accident it's called all the way to Minnesota. At the end of the match Fat's was humble as peach pie, or at least for him. A side I have never witnessed in all the hours I have watched him. He said Willie Mosconi lays em down better than any man livin. It was nice to see this from Fats, as this was a very rare event.
As far as real iron clad proven records. Willie was the best and up until this year when they changed the game. He still held the high run record in competition. If they were playing this way then. He would still have Thorsten's record. Not taking away at all from Thorsten. IMHO he is well on his way to being considered one of the Greatest players ever. If he wins the straight pool title from now like Willie Mosconi and Ralph Greenlief I will have no doubts. Willie Mosconi is hands down the greatest pocket billiard player ever.
I can't believe for even a second, someone could question his one pocket abilities. That game is much easier than straight pool. He could have run racks in one pocket all day long. He shot something like eight in one corner and six in the other up into hundreds W/ no misses every day sometimes two or three times. 80% of his shots were at the corner pockets and remember he started on larger tables with modern IPT sized and sometimes even smaller pockets.
I don't have the exact record between Willie Mosconi and Minnestota Fats. If they would have played a thousand matches the score would be 999-1.
Fats could gamble with most short stops and he was great at making a game he could win. He would camp in your town and wait until your birthday, get you drunk and take all your cash. He was a hustler, and yes, the best at it. To answer an earlier post yes, by today's standards he could be on tour and even a threat to most of the players. I am sure he could break 100. He could have probably even closed the game on you at one time back then 125.
Willie Mosconi was "Mr. Pocket Billiards." He always won and if you could ask any of the people that played with him. They all said Willie was much better than anyone else. His records are just unreal. He played so good it doesn't seem possible. One of his competitors said Willie could run 400 balls on you, and then play safe. When he got the cue ball back he'd run 400 more. This doesn't sound real but, it's true.
This Quote comes from Irving Crane another real champion and a honest man. When he was asked "What is your greatest acomplishment?" he said "I beat Willie once when... Now this is coming from a man that had bested everyone and held so many major titles including WC 14 times (I think this number is right). He even bested players into his 70's and could of easily of bested Fats.
No player could get there playing Willie Mosconi.
Jamison
During the match Fats slopped in as many as he shot in. He always hit the balls really hard, so that when he missed in sloppy games. He could still play a seven rail double carom combo and he was very lucky at those. There is a trick shot named after him. It's a long two rail bank but, only if it's on accident it's called all the way to Minnesota. At the end of the match Fat's was humble as peach pie, or at least for him. A side I have never witnessed in all the hours I have watched him. He said Willie Mosconi lays em down better than any man livin. It was nice to see this from Fats, as this was a very rare event.
As far as real iron clad proven records. Willie was the best and up until this year when they changed the game. He still held the high run record in competition. If they were playing this way then. He would still have Thorsten's record. Not taking away at all from Thorsten. IMHO he is well on his way to being considered one of the Greatest players ever. If he wins the straight pool title from now like Willie Mosconi and Ralph Greenlief I will have no doubts. Willie Mosconi is hands down the greatest pocket billiard player ever.
I can't believe for even a second, someone could question his one pocket abilities. That game is much easier than straight pool. He could have run racks in one pocket all day long. He shot something like eight in one corner and six in the other up into hundreds W/ no misses every day sometimes two or three times. 80% of his shots were at the corner pockets and remember he started on larger tables with modern IPT sized and sometimes even smaller pockets.
I don't have the exact record between Willie Mosconi and Minnestota Fats. If they would have played a thousand matches the score would be 999-1.
Fats could gamble with most short stops and he was great at making a game he could win. He would camp in your town and wait until your birthday, get you drunk and take all your cash. He was a hustler, and yes, the best at it. To answer an earlier post yes, by today's standards he could be on tour and even a threat to most of the players. I am sure he could break 100. He could have probably even closed the game on you at one time back then 125.
Willie Mosconi was "Mr. Pocket Billiards." He always won and if you could ask any of the people that played with him. They all said Willie was much better than anyone else. His records are just unreal. He played so good it doesn't seem possible. One of his competitors said Willie could run 400 balls on you, and then play safe. When he got the cue ball back he'd run 400 more. This doesn't sound real but, it's true.
This Quote comes from Irving Crane another real champion and a honest man. When he was asked "What is your greatest acomplishment?" he said "I beat Willie once when... Now this is coming from a man that had bested everyone and held so many major titles including WC 14 times (I think this number is right). He even bested players into his 70's and could of easily of bested Fats.
No player could get there playing Willie Mosconi.
Jamison
JamisonNeu said:
In his new book, Freddy The Beard describes how Mosconi gave three exhibitions sometime in the 60's at the room where Freddy played in Chinatown in Chicago. Mosconi played three straight pool matches (and then trick shots) on three consecutive days. In the first one he ran 200 and out, and stopped shooting. In the second one he ran 200 and out, and again stopped shooting. In the third one, this time playing Freddy, he ran 160 and out. He never missed a trick shot. Admission to the exhibitions was $1, and not many people attended.
Six weeks later Fats came to give an exhibition at the same room. Admission was $2 and the place was jammed. According to Freddy, Fats' exhibition was awful - he missed and missed and missed, and his trick shot show was deplorable. He blamed the tables, the cloth, the cue ball, the chalk and the air conditioning. Through it all he maintained his confidence and cockiness and was nonchalant about his miserable performance, and the people loved him. Freddy said that he then realized he was in the presence of genius.
If you like stories like this, like I do, Freddy's book (The Gospool According To Freddy) is terrific.