Please offer your opinions on cue design theft

manwon

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How does everyone feel about cue design theft. Here is a current thread on the forum where obvious cue design theft has taken place. The cue was made in China by an unknown person, while it appears to have been made to very high standard it is clearly case of design theft. The style of the veneer's (One Sided Veneer's) and other attributes of the cues design were directly stolen from a well known Custom Cue Maker Richard Churdy.

The forum member who started the thread admits that the cue is an example of design theft and even with this said he doesn't feel that by promoting the cue through photo's he has done anything wrong. Maybe I am wrong, however, I think that knowingly promoting design theft is as bad as building cues that are copies of unique designs conceived by another cue maker and I don't understand how some one can justify this behavior.

Here is the thread in question:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=248148

Please let me know if you think this is wrong or right.
 
Craig, hasn't this been covered a hundred times? #1 it's not design theft to take a technique and do your own interpretation of it. #2 legally nothing on a cue is subject to copyright so you can't really steal what's not owned can you? #3 morally it's "wrong" to make dead nuts copies of someone else's work for your own profit but this is not an example of such.

We all copy from others, it's how we grow. Do we condemn Scott Gracio for his version of the Brusnwick 360? Or all the folks who make Tad-like designs? Or how about your use of pearlescent plastics in much the same way that cuemakers of the past and present (Viking) do it? The point is you and all other cue makers work in the styles that inspire you and you try and grow and take those styles in different directions.

That's how progress is made. Just think where we would be if the inventor of the wheel killed the first person who dared to make a copy of it.
 
Craig, hasn't this been covered a hundred times? #1 it's not design theft to take a technique and do your own interpretation of it. #2 legally nothing on a cue is subject to copyright so you can't really steal what's not owned can you? #3 morally it's "wrong" to make dead nuts copies of someone else's work for your own profit but this is not an example of such.

We all copy from others, it's how we grow. Do we condemn Scott Gracio for his version of the Brusnwick 360? Or all the folks who make Tad-like designs? Or how about your use of pearlescent plastics in much the same way that cuemakers of the past and present (Viking) do it? The point is you and all other cue makers work in the styles that inspire you and you try and grow and take those styles in different directions.

That's how progress is made. Just think where we would be if the inventor of the wheel killed the first person who dared to make a copy of it.

Dear God/Buddha/Allah/Yaweh forgive me for what I am about to do but in this particular instance.......

I agree with John Barton.


<-----pretty sure the snowball fight just started in hell
 
This has been going on for a while. What is design theft? How many Schons look like Richard Black cues? How many Tim Scruggs look like Balabushkas? I see what you're saying with the one sided vaneers but all in all it really doesn't resemble a Chudy to me. I seen a thread a while back where a Phillipino cue maker made a cue that directly resembled a Sugartree. I can see where that would be "design theft". Wouldn't a Titlist "tibute" be design theft? McDaniel made a Ginacue tribute. I believe Phillipi did as well. How many upper echelon cue makers have made Bushka tributes? I'm not condoning or hating on anything I just think there's a fine line.
 
Craig, hasn't this been covered a hundred times? #1 it's not design theft to take a technique and do your own interpretation of it. #2 legally nothing on a cue is subject to copyright so you can't really steal what's not owned can you? #3 morally it's "wrong" to make dead nuts copies of someone else's work for your own profit but this is not an example of such.

We all copy from others, it's how we grow. Do we condemn Scott Gracio for his version of the Brusnwick 360? Or all the folks who make Tad-like designs? Or how about your use of pearlescent plastics in much the same way that cuemakers of the past and present (Viking) do it? The point is you and all other cue makers work in the styles that inspire you and you try and grow and take those styles in different directions.

That's how progress is made. Just think where we would be if the inventor of the wheel killed the first person who dared to make a copy of it.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Great, now I can say I agree with Justin. :D Why are single-sided veneers a rip-off unless two-sided veneers are also in which case there are a whole bunch of rip-off artists in the cue making world. Is the first guy to use the Hoppe ring, full splice, a stainless steel joint, irish linen wrap, radial pin, notched diamond inlays, etc. the only guy who should be allowed to do so?

Similarly, if I see a specific design element I like there is no reason I shouldn't be able to go to my favorite cue maker and ask him to incorporate that element in a cue for me.
 
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Craig, hasn't this been covered a hundred times? #1 it's not design theft to take a technique and do your own interpretation of it. #2 legally nothing on a cue is subject to copyright so you can't really steal what's not owned can you? #3 morally it's "wrong" to make dead nuts copies of someone else's work for your own profit but this is not an example of such.

We all copy from others, it's how we grow. Do we condemn Scott Gracio for his version of the Brusnwick 360? Or all the folks who make Tad-like designs? Or how about your use of pearlescent plastics in much the same way that cuemakers of the past and present (Viking) do it? The point is you and all other cue makers work in the styles that inspire you and you try and grow and take those styles in different directions.

That's how progress is made. Just think where we would be if the inventor of the wheel killed the first person who dared to make a copy of it.


I'm going to have to side with JB on this one.

It seems to me that the problem is that the cue was made by a Chinese cue maker.

I have a nice Richard Black that he even calls the "Bushka" why aren't we up in arms of this blatant copy of another's original design. JB's example of the Scott Gracio 360 tribute cue is another good example.

If the cuemaker in question was trying to pass it off as a RC3 that would be a different story.

It all seems much ado about nothing.
 
Funny stuff Justin lol!

IMO John has the right perspective on this. Can't steal something that isn't owned...period ;)
 
The moment you put wood in a lathe turned it and put a joint in it and made a shaft with a tip and ferrule you copied someone. Also yes John did say it best. I will agree with John as well.
 
Thanks for everyones opinion, but I have to stand behind mine. Maybe I see things from a different perspective, but I think most builders would definately be offended if some one copied their design to the extent that this cue copies Mr. Churdys work!!:smile:

Respectfully
 
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Thanks for everyones opinion, but I have to stand behind mine. Maybe I see things from a different perspective, but I think most builders would definately be offended if some one copied their design to the extent that this cue copies Mr. Churdys work!!:smile:

Respectfully

Do you feel the same way about Scott Gracio's 360 Tribute or the Richard Black Bushka? Both clearly are copying original designs. How does this one differ?
 
RC is owed some royalty.

Really? Who do you pay royalties to for all the design elements you use in your cues that other people pioneered?

Richard is clearly owed some credit.

But even as far as THAT goes what if this unknown cue maker in China had simply seen a picture of a Chudy without any attribution at all? So he sees this picture and thinks to try it himself and this cue is the result. What's wrong with that?

Does Joel Hercek owe Kandinsky some royalties? Does Richard Black owe Parker Pens some royalties?

Seriously Joey don't be ridiculous here.

avatar2149_42.gif


I see a bumper design that reminds me of other makers, dash rings and what looks like micro-thin veneer rings. Do we need to start looking around the net to find similar designs in order to determine who was first so you can pay royalties?
 
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Dear God/Buddha/Allah/Yaweh forgive me for what I am about to do but in this particular instance.......

I agree with John Barton.


<-----pretty sure the snowball fight just started in hell

I have to say as soon as I read it my feet started getting very cold and I felt a distinct pull downward......

I believe though that you are guilty of copyright infringement as someone else invented the "when hell freezes over" concept and your twist is clearly derivative. :-) Please say ten hail marys and go pay your royalties now.
 
Makes me remember watching that jackass pretend biker Jesse James claim on TV that he came up with his famous original exhaust header design all on his own.....even though it's been around since the early 1970's. Knew him before he was famous, he was a jackass then too. Some of the stuff I built 20-25 years ago you can now find in a catalog with his name on it. Dis he rip off my designs? No.

Oh yeah, that's where the handle Chopdoc comes from. Chopper Doctor. I build and ride custom choppers. In the second year of med school I once rode a chopper in to the lobby of the pathology classroom. Those straight pipes tend to get a lot of attention indoors. :thumbup:

Points themselves are a ripoff. Anybody that puts points into a cue that isn't a full splice is ripping off an artistic design?

I really think this is simply NOT design theft or theft of any kind.

In fact I'll bet if people look hard enough, one sided veneers were probably done before RC3 did it.....even if nobody can find it, it was probably done before.
 
You could apply for a Design Patent, which basically claims the "look" of a product.

These tend to be as ridiculously easy to circumvent as they are to obtain. If you have a bunch of money, you can get a bunch of Design Patents on virtually anything and then brag about how many patents you have. You can make VERY small changes to the look of something with a Design Patent and get around it.

I just searched the US Patent Office database for the string "billiards cue" in any field. Surprisingly, there were only 28 patents, all of which were utility patents, which are the good kind of patents. Utility patents are much more difficult to obtain because you have to defend specific geometry and usefulness to a patent examiner who really wants to deny a new patent. Seems they might actually be on quotas. They act like it.

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But if the cue in question were marketed as a Chudy, that would be criminal.

Since I see no Design Patents on cues, I suspect everyone has realized the futility of going this route.

So copy away!

P.S. One of the utility patents was on some kind of an Illuminating Cue. I didn't read the patent, but it seems your kid could play with it as a light sabre. About 90% of utility patents are on worthless crap you wouldn't want to copy anyway, and the Illuminating Cue appears to fall into that category.
 
You could apply for a Design Patent, which basically claims the "look" of a product.

These tend to be as ridiculously easy to circumvent as they are to obtain. If you have a bunch of money, you can get a bunch of Design Patents on virtually anything and then brag about how many patents you have. You can make VERY small changes to the look of something with a Design Patent and get around it.

I just searched the US Patent Office database for the string "billiards cue" in any field. Surprisingly, there were only 28 patents, all of which were utility patents, which are the good kind of patents. Utility patents are much more difficult to obtain because you have to defend specific geometry and usefulness to a patent examiner who really wants to deny a new patent. Seems they might actually be on quotas. They act like it.

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But if the cue in question were marketed as a Chudy, that would be criminal.

Since I see no Design Patents on cues, I suspect everyone has realized the futility of going this route.

So copy away!

P.S. One of the utility patents was on some kind of an Illuminating Cue. I didn't read the patent, but it seems your kid could play with it as a light sabre. About 90% of utility patents are on worthless crap you wouldn't want to copy anyway, and the Illuminating Cue appears to fall into that category.

All this has been discussed ad infinitum here and on other pool forums for 15 years now.

The basic sentiment is that if a cue maker or case maker or widget maker has a "signature" thing that they do then it should be kind of off limits for other makers to do it. Of course the people who steadfastly believe this don't apply justice equally when someone offends.

In other words some people get a free pass to sell or promote or make copies, tributes, inspired pieces, etc.... with or without giving credit to the source, while others are burned at the stake for the same thing.

No one cares about the actual legality because there is a moral pedestal to climb on. So the argument becomes, "who cares if it's legal, that doesn't mean you should do it." - So basically you're screwed in the eyes of these design-theft moralists if you break the law and you're screwed if you follow the law.

Personally I think that there should be some sort of copyright that can be applied to cues. Thomas Wayne successfully had copies of his cues pulled from the shelves but I don't know if that was a courtesy thing or whether he claimed infringement.

But anyway, this horse has been beat to death so many times and reincarnated that it's really old news by now.

It's funny you know. In all the books we tell people that to be successful you should copy what successful people do until you learn it inside and out. But when it comes to cues then god forbid someone should dare to try something that someone somewhere else did. There is a line between exploring a technique and simply snagging designs and cue makers know when they have crossed it. Let them worry about it.

My take on this is if you don't want your designs to ever be copied in any way then don't show them off. Don't have a website, beg your customers to keep their cues off the web and simply do your best to withhold the food for thought that drives people to take what you have done and remix it their way.

Once upon a time I told the ACA that they were responsible for the copies of their cues being made in China. What??? Blasphemy.

No, simply access.

In the 80s and early 90s jsut about the only designs being knocked off regularly were the McDermotts and Meuccis. Before that it was Palmers and Paradise cues.

Why?

Very simple, those were the easiest cues to get nice detailed catalogs of.

In the 90s all the cue makers started competing to see who could make the nicest brochures. As a result plenty of literature showing off cue designs came into being, a Cue Calendar, The Billiard Encyclopedia, The Blue Book of cues, and of course by the end of the 90s websites.

So the cue factories in China had plenty of great new designs to choose from. And they did. Only in the last decade have they started to do their own designs but still with a lot of influence from cues past.

Anyway, dead horse, progress, life. I already lost my millions due to people "stealing" my designs. I am over it.
 
When I hear this stuff about copying design I seem to notice that its the overseas makers that are brought to the forefront not the makers in the US that do the same thing.I beginning to think its not the copying thats the real issue here but where its coming from which is totally bias in my opinion.:rolleyes:
 
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