Problems with Perry Weston and the ACA.

[mosconiac]

"Mission Statement

It is the mission of the American Cuemaker’s Association to establish and recognize a standard of excellence in the art of cuemaking, to educate the public about cues, promote the collecting of cues, and to cooperate with other organizations engaged in billiard promotions whose objectives are compatible with those of the American Cuemaker’s Association." From: http://www.cuemakers.org/index.php

"History of the American Cuemakers Association

The ACA was formed to advance the art of cuemaking as a unique American art form by establishing and maintaining high standards for American made cues and cue products, to educate the public, promote the collecting of cues, and to cooperate with other organizations engaged in billiard promotions whose objectives are compatible with those of the ACA." From: http://www.cuemakers.org/history.php

"PURPOSE OF THE AMERICAN CUEMAKER'S ASSOCIATION

The American Cuemakers Association was founded in 1992 to promote the American made Cue as a unique art form. In order to preserve the public's respect for the quality of work performed and the professionalism by members of the ACA, certain minimum membership requirements are necessary. Not all cuemaker members need to be able to make cues valued at thousands of dollars. All applicants do, however, need to be able to produce a quality cue that meets the minimum standards of the association, and to conduct themselves and their business in a professional and ethical manner." From: http://www.cuemakers.org/membership.php


Dismal craftsmanship & post-sale customer service by Perry Weston. Make it right, Perry!

If the ACA wishes to be taken seriously (& live up to their own Mission Statement & related statements from their website), they need to act in a swift & proper manner in this matter. Otherwise, what is their value?

IMO, this is a watershed moment for the ACA. Prove that minimum quality standards exists and that your members will conduct their business in a professional and ethical manner.

 

[Ky Boy]

I agree wholeheartedly!! While I understand Justin's point of it not being an established association, I believe they may have been overzealous in the creation of their motto or strategy. My question now is how do they hold cue makers to an ethical and professional standard if Perry Weston can get away with shipping out a cue in this condition.

Regardless of what the OP has said or done (not implying he has done anything either) the cue should have never made it to him in this condition. So, I disagree with Justin knowing full well if this organization is worth their weight in salt will do what's right and force Perry to stand behind his work or risk his goodstanding with the association.

Again, whether it is 2 or 2000 members these cuemakers have created an organization committed to maintaining high standards of excellence. They must do their part to ratify this situation or risk losing credibility of their own.....regardless of how busy they are!!

Gary

 

[jlrowe]

Again, whether it is 2 or 2000 members these cuemakers have created an organization committed to maintaining high standards of excellence. They must do their part to ratify this situation or risk losing credibility of their own.....regardless of how busy they are!!
Gary

I agree 100% with Gary. I dont think the OP did anything wrong in his decision to contact ACA. I would not give up until i was compensated. Im sure it was a lot of money to lose. Your correct, that is about the lightest colored ebony ive ever seen. If PW has lost his passion then he should retire.

 

[gunzby]

That cue looks awful. To say that I would be angry by receiving that heap is an understatement. I would be in such disbelief that I would think it was a mistake somehow....until having a conversation that the OP described and then I would be furious. Perry Weston is off my list now and I don't forget that stuff.

I remember reading about Andy Gilbert going above and beyond for a customer some time ago (I could be wrong, but I think the person's cue was stolen and AG replaced it free of charge). I think I read about this two years ago and still haven't forgotten it.

 

[JCIN]

"establishing and maintaining high standards for American made cues and cue products"

Ok. Now show me where it says the organization is supposed to mediate individual customer issues with members ?

First of all it is a completely unrealistic expectation. Anyone who says different does not understand what the ACA actually does IMO. I am sure if a member were to have numerous complaints or continually ship terrible work they would look at the situation. Even then all they could do is kick the guy out.

It has been mentioned here by at least one poster they dont understand what happened in this situation because Weston usually does good work. This is a single situation in which we have one side of the story.

Perry Weston did not satisfy this customer. It's his job to deal with that situation not anyone else's.

As far as I know the ACA maintains a Hall of Fame (in name and spirit more than anything else) and recognizes members who go above and beyond during a dinner they have one time a year at the SBE. They also do what they can to help educate people on cues and cuemakers. Not exactly the same as the organizations that certify doctors, dentists, and lawyers. Which is what some seem to be comparing them to here.

Dave Jacoby took time out of his day to try and help the OP get a resolution. From the information posted so far it didnt work. Just exactly what else is the ACA supposed to do ? What time frame are they supposed to act in ?

At the end of the day Perry Weston and the OP are the ones who have to work this out. I am positive the ACA has no desire to become the mediator in every transaction that someone is unhappy with. To expect that is unrealistic and unfair.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I agree with you Justin.

Perhaps some would like the ACA to function as the judge and jury of the cue business, but it just isn't. The comparisons to the American Medical Association and State Bar Associations are just not valid. These latter organizations are sanctioning bodies and you cannot legally practice those professions without being certified by those organizations. So yes, they have more of a fiduciary responsibility to oversee malpractice by its members.

Unlike law or medicine, one does not have to be a member and sanctioned by the ACA to call themselves a cue maker and legally sell cue sticks. Anyone can hang out a shingle and make cues.

And even if you could compare the AMA or the Bar to the ACA, all they can do is revoke his membership, and they probably wouldn't so that over one dissatisfied customer. If a doctor cuts off your arm when he was supposed to take out your appendix, does the AMA make sure you are compensated? No they don't. You want damages you have to go to court.

I just can't see how the ACA can be expected to intervene and mediate every dispute between cue maker and customer. Yes it would have been nice if they had been able to help resolve the problem but I just don't think it's fair to drag them through the mud for a problem that is squarely on the shoulders of Perry Weston.

 

[TATE]

"establishing and maintaining high standards for American made cues and cue products"

Ok. Now show me where it says the organization is supposed to mediate individual customer issues with members ?

First of all it is a completely unrealistic expectation. Anyone who says different does not understand what the ACA actually does IMO. I am sure if a member were to have numerous complaints or continually ship terrible work they would look at the situation. Even then all they could do is kick the guy out.

It has been mentioned here by at least one poster they dont understand what happened in this situation because Weston usually does good work. This is a single situation in which we have one side of the story.

Perry Weston did not satisfy this customer. It's his job to deal with that situation not anyone else's.

As far as I know the ACA maintains a Hall of Fame (in name and spirit more than anything else) and recognizes members who go above and beyond during a dinner they have one time a year at the SBE. They also do what they can to help educate people on cues and cuemakers. Not exactly the same as the organizations that certify doctors, dentists, and lawyers. Which is what some seem to be comparing them to here.

Dave Jacoby took time out of his day to try and help the OP get a resolution. From the information posted so far it didnt work. Just exactly what else is the ACA supposed to do ? What time frame are they supposed to act in ?

At the end of the day Perry Weston and the OP are the ones who have to work this out. I am positive the ACA has no desire to become the mediator in every transaction that someone is unhappy with. To expect that is unrealistic and unfair.

They are an association, simple as that and have no legal authority over their members, nor do they have a responsibility to arbitrate disputes. I even wonder how many cue customers check stuff like BBB and other consumer complaint organizations.

Not to the OP necessarily, but to all cue buyers: As always, the buyer must beware. Don't make large payments until you are satisfied that the cue has been completed to your satifaction. Don't take someone else's word for it. Check it yourself or at least get some good photos and insist on knowing what the policy is for dissatisfaction or refunds. Don't buy a cue "as is" without recourse or inspection. Make your expectations clearly known.

Basically you are the customer, not the friend, of the cue maker.

Chris

 

[jrackman]

I don't think it matters if Weston made the cue or his "helper" did. His name is on the darn thing, his reputation is on the line, and folks are buying on that reputation. And how many cues could this shop be sending out per week...2 or 3 at best... So, he can't take 60 seconds to look at a cue before it gets sent out to a customer to ensure it meets his "exacting" standards !! Geez... He basically sold him a very expensive piece of fire wood as far as I'm concerned. And the customer acted a lot better than I would. And I can tell you I would be dragging his hack A** to small claims court over this with some testimony from another expert cue maker. Absolutley embarrassing.

And regarding the ACA, most Homeowners Associations, and some not-for profits, and many other business don't have any full-time employees, but they can and do make tough decisions everyday to ensure things are working. The ACA could have a 3-memeber panel review the cue (mailed at the customers expense) and make a decision, and at least order a suspension if not rectified ASAP if said cue is below standards. And Weston gets back into ACA once ordered corrections are made. In this case, a NEW cue is warranted IMHO....this can't be fixed, it's a freakin MESS.

this is to bad. but you hit on the nail here

 

[jrackman]

The quality of workmanship on this cue is atrocious. I'm sure that the OP paid top dollar for this cue since Weston's stuff is expensive. The cuemaker should never have had this leave his shop. The cuemaking industry is a small one, and this kind of notoriety will undoubtedly leave its mark.

Sorry that the OP got ripped off.[/QUOT This is why you buy a Bender, Mike would never even think for a second to let a cue go to a buyer if it did not meet his Standards (very high standards)...just the way it is!!

 

[manwon]

I think there should be some mechanism by which the ACA can intervene on behalf of a customer who receives a blatantly poor quality cue from one of its members. If ACA has a code of ethics and a member clearly violates it, then do something about it.

For a cuemaker to be a member of the ACA provides a measure of confidence to potential customers that they will receive a quality product. This should not be lost on Dave Jacoby, or frankly, anyone affiliated with ACA.

Early in their existence or not, they should endeavor to make it right.

Best,
Brian kc

Brian I agree with you completely and I also read that they were early in their existence but I went to their website and it says they have been an organization since 1992. Now I kinda think in 18 years they would have some guide lines set in stone to deal with members who are not following their mission statement, maybe we are asking to much of them!!!!!

http://www.cuemakers.org/index.php

JIMO

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

"establishing and maintaining high standards for American made cues and cue products"

Ok. Now show me where it says the organization is supposed to mediate individual customer issues with members ?

Hi Justin;

I agree with you that it probably doesn't say anywhere that ACA "is supposed to mediate individual customer issues with members" but, with all due respect, I feel there's a lot more here that they should consider.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the ACA has created an atmosphere in which potential customers are provided with a sense of confidence when doing business with its members. This is based on what is spelled out in ACA's mission statement regarding quality and ethics pertaining to its members.

When an ACA member veers off course so dramatically, as it appears Mr. Weston has done in this instance, it would behoove ACA's leadership (and members) to intervene and do whatever is required to keep their good reputation intact.

Of course the ACA can not step in on every dispute between their members and member's customers, but when something gets out of hand, and goes public like this has, they really should be interested in doing some damage control. Potentially, this one cuemaker's bad actions could have an adverse financial effect ACA's other members.

Please keep in mind that in this case we're not talking about a visible seam on a wrap or an ivory ferrule that didn't have enough grain for a picky customer's liking. This was a man who ordered and paid for a purebread and received a cross-eyed mongrel with mange. I strongly believe that every ACA cuemaker, to a man, if they saw the condition that this cue was sent to the customer, would say this was alarmingly wrong.

Oh, and BTW, I also agree with you that we still have only heard one side of this story.

Won't we all feel like silly geese when it turns out the OP was really mad at Perry Weston over a real estate transaction gone bad and so now he has spun this tale complete with photoshopped images depicting damages to a PW cue that he never actually purchased? :grin-square:

Best,
Brian kc
P.S. And for the record, I know who many of these ACA cuemakers are and, no question about it, they build some wonderful cues. To my mind, this is what makes this such an important issue. There are some very good reputations worth protecting.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

With such a bold mission statement such as that, one should expect no less.
If they can't walk the walk, then remove the BS from their site.

It seemed to be the only option left for Joey. Maybe Perry was correct, they really don't give a crap. In that case, this complaint reflects poorly on the administration and its members.

 

[manwon]

I agree with you Justin.

Perhaps some would like the ACA to function as the judge and jury of the cue business, but it just isn't. The comparisons to the American Medical Association and State Bar Associations are just not valid. These latter organizations are sanctioning bodies and you cannot legally practice those professions without being certified by those organizations. So yes, they have more of a fiduciary responsibility to oversee malpractice by its members.

Unlike law or medicine, one does not have to be a member and sanctioned by the ACA to call themselves a cue maker and legally sell cue sticks. Anyone can hang out a shingle and make cues.

And even if you could compare the AMA or the Bar to the ACA, all they can do is revoke his membership, and they probably wouldn't so that over one dissatisfied customer. If a doctor cuts off your arm when he was supposed to take out your appendix, does the AMA make sure you are compensated? No they don't. You want damages you have to go to court.

I just can't see how the ACA can be expected to intervene and mediate every dispute between cue maker and customer. Yes it would have been nice if they had been able to help resolve the problem but I just don't think it's fair to drag them through the mud for a problem that is squarely on the shoulders of Perry Weston.

I think it is completely fair to drag them through the mud if they allow members to build substandard cues and it is in fact proven that they did so while being a ACA Member.

Mission Statement
It is the mission of the American Cue maker’s Association to establish and recognize a standard of excellence in the art of cue making, to educate the public about cues, promote the collecting of cues, and to cooperate with other organizations engaged in billiard promotions whose objectives are compatible with those of the American Cue maker’s Association.

They clearly state that their mission is to establish and recognize a standard in cue making.

By saying this they are telling the public that their members must meet a standard in their ability as a Cue Maker, along with the fact that they also have stringent requirements that cue makers must meet or exceed to become a member, along with a membership fee and annual dues.

Next why would a cue maker want to join an organization like this and pay the required fee's if they were not getting something for their money?

Because they are accredited as an accomplished Cue Maker who has proven and who has met the requirements of an organization that recognizes standards of excellence in the art of cue making. This is designed to give collectors and members of the cue making community confidences in the abilities of ACA members.

Now should the ACA be responsible to mediate disputes between it's members and collectors or the cue buying public. I would say no and I agree with those who have said that it is not their responsibility. But, I would also say that as an organization that represents a standard of cue building excellence it must act against any member that is not living up to the standards that allow them to become a member in the first place and I also think that they should reprimand that member and possibly remove that member from their roster of members.

So yes I think the threads OP did the right thing by contacting the President of the organization, and yes I think that he should also have become involved and that he should be interested in any claims by it's members customers that some of their members are building and forcing upon the public substandard Cue's, because once he has been notified it then becomes a direct reflection or a Black Eye so to speak on that organization as a whole. I mean lets face it, what purpose do they serve if they knowing allow members to build cues that do not represent the organizations Mission Statement!!

JIMO

 

[sengkun108]

I think it is completely fair to drag them through the mud if they allow members to build substandard cues and it is in fact proven that they did so while being a ACA Member.

Mission Statement
It is the mission of the American Cue maker’s Association to establish and recognize a standard of excellence in the art of cue making, to educate the public about cues, promote the collecting of cues, and to cooperate with other organizations engaged in billiard promotions whose objectives are compatible with those of the American Cue maker’s Association.

They clearly state that their mission is to establish and recognize a standard in cue making.

By saying this they are telling the public that their members must meet a standard in their ability as a Cue Maker, along with the fact that they also have stringent requirements that cue makers must meet or exceed to become a member, along with a membership fee and annual dues.

Next why would a cue maker want to join an organization like this and pay the required fee's if they were not getting something for their money?

Because they are accredited as an accomplished Cue Maker who has proven and who has met the requirements of an organization that recognizes standards of excellence in the art of cue making. This is designed to give collectors and members of the cue making community confidences in the abilities of ACA members.

Now should the ACA be responsible to mediate disputes between it's members and collectors or the cue buying public. I would say no and I agree with those who have said that it is not their responsibility. But, I would also say that as an organization that represents a standard of cue building excellence it must act against any member that is not living up to the standards that allow them to become a member in the first place and I also think that they should reprimand that member and possibly remove that member from their roster of members.

So yes I think the threads OP did the right thing by contacting the President of the organization, and yes I think that he should also have become involved and that he should be interested in any claims by it's members customers that some of their members are building and forcing upon the public substandard Cue's, because once he has been notified it then becomes a direct reflection or a Black Eye so to speak on that organization as a whole. I mean lets face it, what purpose do they serve if they knowing allow members to build cues that do not represent the organizations Mission Statement!!

I agree 100% with the statement above... well said Mr Craig...:smile:

This is maybe a momentum for ACA to wake up and think for this matter, because many customer in the past ripped of by bad cuemaker. And i believe if we leave this problem behind, there will be many customer get ripped of in the future.
Maybe this is not the first time for this bad cuemaker ripped his customer. But, the customer didn't react like JoeyB. Maybe they think, it is silly to complain their problem to ACA or other organization.

Best
Dedy:smile:

 

[JCIN]

Has anyone spoken to any ACA officers besides the OP to see if they do have a plan of action for such instances ?

Is it possible the whole story has not been presented ?

Is it possible someone from the ACA is looking into it trying to get ALL sides of the story before making a statement or decision ?

Is it possible that ACA members may be trying to resolve this in private ?

Until these questions are answered it seems a little premature to jump on the ACA.

I understand the opinion that the ACA should show an interest in this and when the President of an organization gets involved that to me shows that the issue is getting some attention. The fact that the situation is not resolved yet does not mean that it will not be.

It seems to me that there is a very high standard being applied to the ACA here based on one side of one cue sale. I am certain the ACA doesn't want its members pissing people off with bad deals. I am also certain there is not very much they can realistically do about it and the actions they can take will probably not happen quickly.

End of the day Perry Weston has an unhappy customer. He is the one who should handle the situation. Depending on how he handles it I could see the ACA making a decision on censure, suspension or expulsion. Some here sure do seem to expect a lot of them though without having all the facts.

 

[cardiac kid]

I know Dave Jacoby and most of the guys on the board. To a man they have always been stand up guys in any dealings I have had with them. Something that needs to be kept in mind is that the ACA is in its early stages as an organization. They are working to do more but as group of small mostly one man shops it is a little much to expect them to convene a meeting and kick a guy out just because of one customer complaint.

jcin,

That is the single most important reason for the ACA group to exist! From the reply mentioned from Dave Jacoby, the ACA appears to be no more than a "you pat my back and I'll pat yours" group. I'm disappointed!

When asking a customer to pay sometimes thousands of dollars for a piece of custom carved wood, the only recourse a customer may have is through the creators professional group. Especially if the work was paid in advance. If the OP had posted his problem here first, we would all be jumping all over the guy for not contacting Mr. Weston first. After reading Perry's reply, I think the OP did the right thing.

On a similar note, my old personal lawyer significantly overcharged me for some simple legal services. Then wanted even more to file the paperwork. I refused to pay. He refused to file. Contacted a friend who happens to be a lawyer in the same field. He wrote a friendly letter to the first lawyer. My papers got filed at no charge to me. The first lawyer was very unhappy. Not that he tried to screw me again and lost. But that he had been exposed to his fellows! Seems like the same scenario.

Unfortunately it makes me more wary of having anything "custom" made. Guess I'll stick to my twenty year old Schon.

Lyn

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

I agree with you Justin.

Perhaps some would like the ACA to function as the judge and jury of the cue business, but it just isn't. The comparisons to the American Medical Association and State Bar Associations are just not valid. These latter organizations are sanctioning bodies and you cannot legally practice those professions without being certified by those organizations. So yes, they have more of a fiduciary responsibility to oversee malpractice by its members.

Unlike law or medicine, one does not have to be a member and sanctioned by the ACA to call themselves a cue maker and legally sell cue sticks. Anyone can hang out a shingle and make cues.

And even if you could compare the AMA or the Bar to the ACA, all they can do is revoke his membership, and they probably wouldn't so that over one dissatisfied customer. If a doctor cuts off your arm when he was supposed to take out your appendix, does the AMA make sure you are compensated? No they don't. You want damages you have to go to court.

I just can't see how the ACA can be expected to intervene and mediate every dispute between cue maker and customer. Yes it would have been nice if they had been able to help resolve the problem but I just don't think it's fair to drag them through the mud for a problem that is squarely on the shoulders of Perry Weston.

Dogs, many doctors are "board certified" which requires additional training, skills, etc. so they can promote themselves as the best of the best. This is what the ACA is kinda like. The "board" can remove the doctors from being board certified. No, the AMA nor anyone else can compensate for malpractice other than lawyers and a jury, but joeyb has not asked for compensation from the ACA. He did ask them to assist in getting Mr.Weston and his "cue malpracice" to do the right thing,, and nothing wrong with that. If that were my cue, I'd be calling a lawyer first.

And Mr. Weston should be happy that joeyb is following the chain of command to resolve first. joeyb called Mr.Weston, no results, then called the ACA, no results, then posted on AZ, and no results yet, but we'll wait and see. Mr. Westons email alone is so unprofessional, not only to joeyb but in regards to the ACA, but did anyone notice Mr.Weston does not ever DISPUTE the poor quality being alleged?? Interesting to say the least...

 

[Ky Boy]

Has anyone spoken to any ACA officers besides the OP to see if they do have a plan of action for such instances ?

Is it possible the whole story has not been presented ?

Is it possible someone from the ACA is looking into it trying to get ALL sides of the story before making a statement or decision ?

Is it possible that ACA members may be trying to resolve this in private ?

Until these questions are answered it seems a little premature to jump on the ACA.

I understand the opinion that the ACA should show an interest in this and when the President of an organization gets involved that to me shows that the issue is getting some attention. The fact that the situation is not resolved yet does not mean that it will not be.

It seems to me that there is a very high standard being applied to the ACA here based on one side of one cue sale. I am certain the ACA doesn't want its members pissing people off with bad deals. I am also certain there is not very much they can realistically do about it and the actions they can take will probably not happen quickly.

End of the day Perry Weston has an unhappy customer. He is the one who should handle the situation. Depending on how he handles it I could see the ACA making a decision on censure, suspension or expulsion. Some here sure do seem to expect a lot of them though without having all the facts.

I don't see anyone here "jumping" on the ACA. But I do see several who feel that if your an organization who is pretending to uphold standards, ethically and professionally, then yes you are subjecting yourself to ridicule if you do not hold members to the guidelines they have adopted. Wouldn't you agree with that??? Just saying...

And no I don't feel as though they should deal with every customer compaint as though they were a judge /jury of the cue making world. But they should deal with Perry Weston on the quality of his work in this particular matter. Although PW normally makes a great cue(according to another poster) does it give him a pass to ship a shitty one every now and then???? I don't think so and know you don't either.....

And yes there are 3 sides to every story.....But if PW did indeed ship this cue in this condition with this quality of work then shame on him!!


Gary

 

[TX Poolnut]

That's too bad.

 

[hangemhigh]

I think the ACA should at least negotiate a deal for a new 6 wing cutter for P.W.