Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

CJ Wiley said:
I "real eyes" Chris has a "Cult Following" here on the AZ Forum so I would be the underdog for sure. As far as "any" game, I would presume you're' talking pool games. If someone thinks they can spot me anything I'm all ears......and although I'm primarily playing "other" games right now, I could be temped to start playing pool again.

Playing me Shoot Out is a totally different experience than playing me One Foul.....I was just an average "One Foul Player," but a shade above average at "Two Shot Shoot Out".

Even Efren admits that every time he wins a One Foul game he "Just Got Lucky"....and I would agree that without luck you CAN NOT win a One Foul Ball in Hand tournament no matter who well you play.
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CJ,

With all due respect, I'm not so sure about that last line. How about the Swanee last year in which Orcullo just demolished the field. He played near perfect pool. I think that was enough to win any tournament. It would be a very tough argument to make that he won because of luck. Also, against top pros, the *quality* of the safe you must play to get ball in hand is pretty high...you really have to play a pretty strong tight safe. This is not a gimmie. I have not played the two shot type of game...it certainly sounds interesting. However I don't think that game takes too much away from the tremendous body of skill a modern pro player brings to the table. For example, Shane is clearly the best 10 ball player in America, and he wins more tournaments than anyone else in this country. I don't think that is luck.

KMRUNOUT
 
jhanso18 said:
Same to you, all due respect, but weren't Texas Express rules created for the soul purpose of making the game more friendly for TV? It was designed to speed the game up and make it watchable.

Any one with common sense knows that pool is tough to watch, especially for those not in the fanatic crowd. If 2 foul is better for viewing pleasure, then 1 pocket is what you would see on TV. 1 pocket is FAR more interesting to me than 9ball, but even the average pool player, and even 1p enthusiasts struggle to watch it on stream...

All the best,

Justin
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Justin, In the post following yours (#57) CJ gives a pretty good (albeit brief) explanation, of 'one foul' vs 'two shot' rules...And I do realize one pocket 'live' will NEVER work on live TV. (except for die hard fans of the game) Glad to see you are one !

"Speeding up the game" WAS the intent of TE rules (one foul, ball in hand) But, all it accomplished was changing the game for the worst..while saving very little time, if any !..Pool has always been a tough sell, to any casual observer !..Its just the way it is !...Poker became popular, due to huge $$$$$, and 'instant gratification/decisions !..Sadly, NO pool game will ever have that going for it !..You have to appreciate the 'skill vs luck' ratio, in order to enjoy it.

You seem very 'pool savvy' !...You should watch (and absorb) a few of the older 2 shot, roll out matches from that era, with Buddy, Richie, Kelly, Lassiter, and others ! ..You would see what CJ. and I, are talking about ! ;)
 
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CJ Wiley said:
I won't be at the US Open or Indy anytime soon. We're in lease negotiations right now to open up a multi million dollar billiard club in Ft. Worth. I've tried to play more pool, but without being involved in a pool room I don't have the incentive to play enough.

Two Shot Shoot Out is the game of the future and I'll play anyone in the world Two Shot Shoot Out in Ft. Worth Texas. This doesn't just mean Chris, it means anyone that comes here will get action for $100 a game and when my Billiard Club opens I'll bet higher.....much higher. I just need 3 days notice to get a few hours of practice in.

We will be streaming matches and producing TV Events this coming year and hopefully it will lead to something worth while. "One Foul Ball in Hand" rules will be a "thing of the past" in 10 years is my prediction. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Better get you 100`s ready, i`m sure there are a few filipinos ready for you to make it rain.
 
How bout a rematch of Chris vs Stevie Moore? Id pay to see that. Stevie played like a machine last time they played. Im pretty sure it would be a lot closer this time.
 
There are literally thousands of strategic moves playing Two Shot Shoot Out

Okie said:
CJ, you need to get exposed to Joe Tucker's American Rotation. Loads of opportunity for great shots and great safeties, and good decision making is required to win!

Comparing any 9/10 ball to American Rotation would be like comparing putt putt to championship golf!

Ken

p.s. I prefer two shot over one shot ALL day long!
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Ask Joe Tucker about out meeting when I showed him the advanced Two Shot Shoot Out strategic moves.....I'm pretty sure he had never seen the "inside" way to play the game. Any advanced player that has played both ways will testify that Two Shot Shoot Out is much more strategic and has FAR less luck than the "Ball in Hand" nonsense.

Anyone that hasn't played Two Shot Shoot Out would have no chance in arguing against it because it's EXTREMELY strategic. There are literally thousands of strategic moves playing Two Shot Shoot Out and in One Foul there are less than 10......do the math. ;)

One Foul "Ball in Hand" is simple...try to run out, try to play safe or try to get lucky kicking....that's it in a nutshell. I have several more points that makes the game look silly and it is, and the only reason the rules were changed was because of the Jasco Brothers in a meeting MANY years ago......they wanted to make the Pro Players look ridiculous and because they had absolute control.....it worked, and was never changed.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 
it's like trying to explain why chess is better than Tick Tack Toe.

SJDinPHX said:
Justin, In the post following yours (#57) CJ gives a pretty good (albeit brief) explanation, of 'one foul' vs 'two shot' rules...And I do realize one pocket 'live' will NEVER work on live TV. (except for die hard fans of the game) Glad to see you are one !

"Speeding up the game" WAS the intent of TE rules (one foul, ball in hand) But, all it accomplished was changing the game for the worst..while saving very little time, if any !..Pool has always been a tough sell, to any casual observer !..Its just the way it is !...Poker became popular, due to huge $$$$$, and 'instant gratification/decisions !..Sadly, NO pool game will ever have that going for it !..You have to appreciate the 'skill vs luck' ratio, in order to enjoy it.

You seem very 'pool savvy' !...You should watch (and absorb) a few of the older 2 shot, roll out matches from that era, with Buddy, Richie, Kelly, Lassiter, and others ! ..You would see what CJ. and I, are talking about ! ;)
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Well Stated! The rules are obviously better, but for those that have never actually seen the difference have no referential index - it's like trying to explain why chess is better than Tick Tack Toe.

th
 
KMRUNOUT said:
CJ,

With all due respect, I'm not so sure about that last line. How about the Swanee last year in which Orcullo just demolished the field. He played near perfect pool. I think that was enough to win any tournament. It would be a very tough argument to make that he won because of luck. Also, against top pros, the *quality* of the safe you must play to get ball in hand is pretty high...you really have to play a pretty strong tight safe. This is not a gimmie. I have not played the two shot type of game...it certainly sounds interesting. However I don't think that game takes too much away from the tremendous body of skill a modern pro player brings to the table. For example, Shane is clearly the best 10 ball player in America, and he wins more tournaments than anyone else in this country. I don't think that is luck.

KMRUNOUT
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There's always that one match that requires luck,,,that's my point.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
CJ,

With all due respect, I'm not so sure about that last line. How about the Swanee last year in which Orcullo just demolished the field. He played near perfect pool. I think that was enough to win any tournament. It would be a very tough argument to make that he won because of luck. Also, against top pros, the *quality* of the safe you must play to get ball in hand is pretty high...you really have to play a pretty strong tight safe. This is not a gimmie. I have not played the two shot type of game...it certainly sounds interesting. However I don't think that game takes too much away from the tremendous body of skill a modern pro player brings to the table. For example, Shane is clearly the best 10 ball player in America, and he wins more tournaments than anyone else in this country. I don't think that is luck.

KMRUNOUT
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Sorry sir, but I don't see the relevance here ?..The best player, will almost always win ! (unless he gets 'unlucky' :embarrassed2:)...This has nothing to do, with the subject at hand...That is which set of rules are better for 9/10 ball...If you have never played 2 shot foul rules, how can you pass judgement on guys like CJ, Buddy Hall, Earl etc. ?...Pool, can very often be a matter of a players 'COMFORT ZONE' !..And, believe it or not, even SVB and Orcullo have their's !.. And it can rear its ugly head, at any time !..
..I think that may be why they call it "GAMBLING" !

PS..It really doesn't really matter what a person's skill set is,..Arm wrestling, scrabble, pool or ping pong...Gambling will always be the common denominator !..Pride is fine for sissie's, but without gambling, why would you really give a big rat's ass ? :p
 
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jhanso18 said:
I'm not saying 1 foul is better or easier, but sustainable over 9ball as we know it? You'd have an easier argument for Bonus Ball! Here's your public forum. Please, wow me. (I'd love to here it, genuinely!!! Seems like everyone of you guys with "the next big thing" in pool NEVER wants to share...)
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this............................
 
CJ Wiley said:
Ask Joe Tucker about out meeting when I showed him the advanced Two Shot Shoot Out strategic moves.....I'm pretty sure he had never seen the "inside" way to play the game. Any advanced player that has played both ways will testify that Two Shot Shoot Out is much more strategic and has FAR less luck than the "Ball in Hand" nonsense.

Anyone that hasn't played Two Shot Shoot Out would have no chance in arguing against it because it's EXTREMELY strategic. There are literally thousands of strategic moves playing Two Shot Shoot Out and in One Foul there are less than 10......do the math. ;)

One Foul "Ball in Hand" is simple...try to run out, try to play safe or try to get lucky kicking....that's it in a nutshell. I have several more points that makes the game look silly and it is, and the only reason the rules were changed was because of the Jasco Brothers in a meeting MANY years ago......they wanted to make the Pro Players look ridiculous and because they had absolute control.....it worked, and was never changed.

'The Game is the Teacher'
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I think you missed the part where I agree with you...

Ken
 
This is an honest question. If "two shot roll out" is so much better why did everyone completely stop playing it? It's been 30 years and it's not in one video, one exhibition match, no one gambles at it. I understand it was changed from being the tv game, but if it was so superior why did it vanish from the face of the earth in terms of non televised matches. I mean straight pool is played more and it's as big as of anachronism as there is in pool.
 
When I started playing...... "two shot push out" is how I learned , it was years later before I
Started playing BIH. CJ did you ever pass through the small town of Whiteville NC at Caswell Billiards. It was upstairs and opened in 1941 with the same owner until he passed a few years back
 
BeiberLvr said:
When's the last time he's played a meaningful heads up match? I don't think Chris would have a shot against CJ in his prime, but he's not anymore.

This isn't a knock at CJ by the way. There are quite a few champions: Archer, Strickland, Reyes that can get weight from players today and would be the underdog. It's part of getting older in this game, and when you don't match up as much as you used too, it makes it even harder to come out on top.
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There isn't anyone on the planet going to spot Johnny Archer anything in rotation games and like it regardless of his age. He is on the backside of his career but he is still a threat period.
 
Craig said:
There isn't anyone on the planet going to spot Johnny Archer anything in rotation games and like it regardless of his age. He is on the backside of his career but he is still a threat period.
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I never said they would love it, but I think guys like Dennis and Shane are quite capable of outrunning a small spot against JA.
 
As often happens, this thread has been completely de-railed. There are those arguing in favor of the one foul rule, who don't even know the history of how the players were basically 'forced' into it. Jay Helfert, would be one who would have all the names, and circumstances, on how it all came about...Maybe he will weigh in with his version..(by the way, I am almost certain he is also in favor of 2 shot roll-out, as by far, the best way to play 9/10 ball !)

I think I (we) may have over-simplified the difference between the two sets of rules..Just guessing, but I would think most of our fellow AZBer's, fall in the 20-45 age range...This would mean, most of them, like Chris Bartrum, have never played anything but one foul, ball in hand rules !..

This age group, does not even refer them, as "Texas Express Rules"...They have come to accept them as 'standard' 9ball rules !...I wish there were a way to convince them, they only became 'standard', and were enforced by Don Mackey, who negotiated with the Camel, and various Beer tours in place at that time. (early 80's)...It was such a bad move, it was also instrumental, (along with the advertising ban) in leading to the demise of those popular tours !

Shortly after the "Color of Money" came out, pool was headed in a pretty good direction..Those old enough to remember, will recall you could not get through a few hrs. of television, without seeing a Steve Miserak commercial, touting Lite beer, over a trick shot !..Sadly, a few years later, the bottom dropped out..And also sadly, the Tournament of Champions, and the IPT, fiasco's, also had a very negative impact on pool in general.

A lot of people (at times, the player's themselves) have worked hard, at shooting pool "in the foot" ! :(

SJD
 
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